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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.10.21 00:47:00 -
[1]
I've heard this mentioned now and then by others. That EVE is capable of sustaining it's own PC Market on Tech 1 stuff. Anyone know if there is any interest on the developers part in this area.
Personally I would fully endorse the removal of NPC production, you can continue whatever if there are buy order up by NPCs. But by eliminating the large volumes of ammunition, equipment and ships of basic low cost that the NPC's provide in such large locational consistency you'd really strengthen the tech 1 market.
PLayer competition on tech 1 market would be nice. Especially in back areas where quiet markets are literally smothered in some ways by massive NPC equipment sales.
Any thoughts? I don't see what would be wrong. The empty spaces would fill very quickly with profiteering production people, especially newer players. Which is good.
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Kerushi
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Posted - 2005.10.21 00:50:00 -
[2]
we could sustain the t1 market ages ago, prices won`t rise as every one has a bp or atleast a bpc
i`ve said it many times with my old char that the npc t1 market is holding us back from a full player market while it can be sustained
nway, would love to see the npc to take a hike 
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.10.21 00:52:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Kerushi
we could sustain the t1 market ages ago, prices won`t rise as every one has a bp or atleast a bpc
i`ve said it many times with my old char that the npc t1 market is holding us back from a full player market while it can be sustained
nway, would love to see the npc to take a hike
The NPCs sell at ridiculously high prices though, which really does keep them from influencing the market. I mean 1.6m for a T1 ion blaster cannon?!
-
Proud member of the [23].
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Kyle Caldrel
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Posted - 2005.10.21 00:59:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Kerushi
we could sustain the t1 market ages ago, prices won`t rise as every one has a bp or atleast a bpc
i`ve said it many times with my old char that the npc t1 market is holding us back from a full player market while it can be sustained
nway, would love to see the npc to take a hike
The NPCs sell at ridiculously high prices though, which really does keep them from influencing the market. I mean 1.6m for a T1 ion blaster cannon?!
IIRC, tech 2 sell for much less.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.10.21 01:05:00 -
[5]
Problem is Dark Shikari is location not price. Most people don't care if they can save 25 or 30%. If they can buy it where they are they buy. And NPC's do what players can't.. They produce massive blankets of supply that is dispersed so enormously that you are hard pressed to draw a market to you. YOu either fight system by system and only then certain systems have enough traffic and those ussually are multi stational and already subto invested.
Let us argue this point though. WHat benefit does it provide?
Pro to having it:
-Doesn't require any work or change (though this may be simple to accomplish)
Con:
-Limits the ability for small groups of producers to compete in small markets where npc's establish a monstrous supply, often dozens of thousands of units.
-Discourages younger players from attempting production in things they feasibly could because the initial aspect of finding location becomes too involved.
-Allows nearly no outlet with said NPC competition for ratloot and mission rewards of huge volumes, turning them into mineral burns which pushes more supply into another area of the game.
-Adds one measure to a supposedly fully Player economy which isn't when it could strengthen the feeling of community and origin for your goods.
-Would add, even if small %, more distribution of players away from hub systems.
Honestly how often do you see people try and make a living off of small ammo? You should be able to and not just in the apex systems. And on tha tnote wouldn't it helps spread people otu? Even in a small meausre a few %? Beside swe just revamped the entire empire jump system to promote smaller regional markets. Isn't this in line with that evident direction?
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Aitrus
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Posted - 2005.10.21 01:09:00 -
[6]
I would be all for this. NPC's supply basic mods, drops supply named mods, and players supply tech I and II.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.10.21 01:26:00 -
[7]
Could even be RP'd that NPC corporations no longer wish to produce equipment for elitest pod pilots on the open market.
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LegendHawk
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Posted - 2005.10.21 09:44:00 -
[8]
I don't know =/
Theres way too many items,
and way too many systems,
I wouldn't want to go out 10 systems just to get a skill book or something,
The Player endorse NPC production would not work,
unless theres a player producing EVERYThing, in EVERY System.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.10.21 15:48:00 -
[9]
First off skill books aren't a tech 1 item. And they also aren't available in every system and station only schools. Which already can be a travel, but would be unaffected by this change as what distribution of them happens by players happens for other reasons with skill books.
Secondly it is exactly that need which you describe that is the fundamental driving force for any economy. Demand drives the game. The problem is the demand isn't directly for players to bring the flavor to the game, it's for the person to get low end equipment (in our scenario say a person fitting out a tech 1 frigate with moderate financial backing). For them doing even 1 jump to get an item for 20k rather then 40k isn't worth it. Even though it's half the price. Time is money. And because the NPC's aren't hitting 1 locale that 40k is everywhere and becomes the ultimate convenience. That convenience of distribution is something that players should be driving and founding.
I'd love to hear from someone in CCP on their opinions of the matter. THe idea of Basic becing NPC, Tech 1 player, Named dropped and tech 2 limited access player driven sounds really good to me.
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2005.10.21 16:33:00 -
[10]
We use to have NPC buying and selling "MINERALS" and "ORE".
Production should be stopped. We have on avg 12k players.
Time to stop all production from NPC's. Talk about save server resources!
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Does it matter why, its when is more crucial!
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Bhaal
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Posted - 2005.10.21 16:53:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Aitrus
I would be all for this. NPC's supply basic mods, drops supply named mods, and players supply tech I and II.
Basic?
I thought that stuff was just for recycling?
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Current Hobby other than EVE |
Rodge
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Posted - 2005.10.21 17:49:00 -
[12]
NPC sales keep a max price on things like minerals.
For example, if you buy shuttles from NPCs at 9000 and refine them you'll get about 2800 tritanium.
So theoretically, trit should never rise beyond around 3.5isk anywhere there's an NPC station selling shuttles.
So I agree, NPC sales should go.
Set the player market free and let it go where it likes 
[ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
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Kara Kaprica
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Posted - 2005.10.21 20:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mercade
Problem is Dark Shikari is location not price. Most people don't care if they can save 25 or 30%. If they can buy it where they are they buy. And NPC's do what players can't.. They produce massive blankets of supply that is dispersed so enormously that you are hard pressed to draw a market to you. YOu either fight system by system and only then certain systems have enough traffic and those ussually are multi stational and already subto invested.
Let us argue this point though. WHat benefit does it provide?
Pro to having it:
-Doesn't require any work or change (though this may be simple to accomplish)
Con:
-Limits the ability for small groups of producers to compete in small markets where npc's establish a monstrous supply, often dozens of thousands of units.
-Discourages younger players from attempting production in things they feasibly could because the initial aspect of finding location becomes too involved.
-Allows nearly no outlet with said NPC competition for ratloot and mission rewards of huge volumes, turning them into mineral burns which pushes more supply into another area of the game.
-Adds one measure to a supposedly fully Player economy which isn't when it could strengthen the feeling of community and origin for your goods.
-Would add, even if small %, more distribution of players away from hub systems.
Honestly how often do you see people try and make a living off of small ammo? You should be able to and not just in the apex systems. And on tha tnote wouldn't it helps spread people otu? Even in a small meausre a few %? Beside swe just revamped the entire empire jump system to promote smaller regional markets. Isn't this in line with that evident direction?
anyhting that you pay for in this game that does not go directly into the pocket of a player is called an isk sink. it removes Isk from the game. So much isk is brought into the game, alot more than is lost by ship destruction, that there MUST be ways to lose some from the "Isk pool" the more money there is on the server, the more peiople are willing to pay for things. This is BAD for the economy. Look at games like FFXI or others where there is no sink for the currency (other than chocobos and airship fares)
In that game it used to cost 150k for an Assault Earring. It now costs 2m Gil. there is no way to lose moey so everything just increases in value making it BAD for the new player who has no capital to start with. Every Isk sink in this game is needed, Insurance is bad enough as it is.
"Vengence delivered, on time and cold as ordered" |
Aitrus
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Posted - 2005.10.21 21:52:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Bhaal
Originally by: Aitrus
I would be all for this. NPC's supply basic mods, drops supply named mods, and players supply tech I and II.
Basic?
I thought that stuff was just for recycling?
I see a basic item supply being there so people don't get totally stuck with out mods. Emergency use only to get you where you can buy real gear.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.10.22 00:40:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kara Kaprica
Originally by: Mercade
Problem is Dark Shikari is location not price.........(REmoved all to make post smaller for my next reply))) Beside swe just revamped the entire empire jump system to promote smaller regional markets. Isn't this in line with that evident direction?
anyhting that you pay for in this game that does not go directly into the pocket of a player is called an isk sink. it removes Isk from the game. So much isk is brought into the game, alot more than is lost by ship destruction, that there MUST be ways to lose some from the "Isk pool" the more money there is on the server, the more peiople are willing to pay for things. This is BAD for the economy. Look at games like FFXI or others where there is no sink for the currency (other than chocobos and airship fares)
In that game it used to cost 150k for an Assault Earring. It now costs 2m Gil. there is no way to lose moey so everything just increases in value making it BAD for the new player who has no capital to start with. Every Isk sink in this game is needed, Insurance is bad enough as it is.
THere is only one problem with your statement.
An item takes 1000 Units of tritanium to construct. The current price of tritanium is 2 ISK. That means that the item will have a production cost of 2000 ISK. Someone sells it for a 100% markup. That means it costs 4000 ISK. A new miner can mine 2000 Units of tritanium in 10 minutes and sell it for 4000 ISK.
That is a nice theoretical situation. Now let's take your so called out of hand inflation in a game like EVE not comparing it to non economically structured MMO's.
That item still takes 1000 units of tritanium to construct. The current price of tritanium is now 10x as much because of the amount of money people have and sells for 20 ISK. The cost of the item to produce is 20,000 ISK and it is sold for 40,000 ISK at a 100% markup. It takes a new miner 10 minutes to mine 2000 Units of tritanium to sell for 40,000 iSK. Gee guess what. it's the same.
Now let's look at the truth. A new player wants to do something other then mine, or fight. They want to get into production, start a small business. Location is 99% of sales. If they are in exactly the right system/area it doesn't matter what their price is if it's above cost it won't sell and if it was below it would be bought by mineral scavengers at loss to the player. The reason, well because you can't sell an item for a nice modest % profit if no one buys it. And no one is going to come to your location even if your price is half the NPC's if the item is basic stuff costing 100k or less. It's not worth their time or effort only 1 month old characters will and they are all grouped in the same general areas most often and those areas are market saturated.
Every system in this game that has a station should be a viable market. Hell in some systems each station should be a viable market. If it isn't it shouldn't be because there is somethign computer offered consistently. NPC provided goods are the death of crafting systems MMO's over when they encroach too closely on the delicate line of convenience purchasing. NPC goods must be inconvenient in cost or locale for PC goods to survive in a majority.
As for ISK sinks. That is not applicable in a true market game. Want to know why? If everyone suddenly had 1billion ISK. ALl it would do is scale the game up and make everyone have more 0's int heir wallets. Because the people who buy minerals buy them from miners and the cost of ore is what it will be paid for the higher that is the better it pays. Look at what level 4 agents did to the profitability of low end ores when people stopped.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.10.22 15:34:00 -
[16]
Would be interested to hear more perspectives on this, perhaps even a CCP staff opinion. Have yet to see any true negatives brought forward and the only difficulties I see in implementing it is changing the eve-online.com refrence to produced products listings for each corporations and the actual removal of whatever generates the sell orders. Gotta be easy.
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ErrorS
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Posted - 2005.10.22 16:24:00 -
[17]
15k people? easy T1 production? T2 replacing T1 in most non-newbie ships? heh, why not? I have no doubt players could sustain the market
________
I'm strict Caldari
"The grass is always greener on the other side" - Maybe they're not as uber as you think?
-ErrorS |
Rafein
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Posted - 2005.10.23 06:23:00 -
[18]
The only problem I see is location.
You'll basiclly make systems like Jita, Rens, systems already a market hub, even more of a hub. Players will have to travel to those systems to get mods. Miners will have to mine around there, or else waste time hauling ore to those market hotspots.
Sure, secondary markets will pop up, but only around hotspots, IE mission hubs, edge of secure space. The rest of space would be very, very empty, and the universe would feel smaller, even worse than before cold war removed the highways.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.10.23 13:22:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 23/10/2005 13:22:31
Inpracticale for one reason - sale limits. Players CANNOT supply nearly enough variety of items, even if they want to. Ditto why new players can't really get in.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2005.10.23 15:22:00 -
[20]
Bad idea - 2 reasons
1 Its bad to force newbs(Im ntalking about guys playing 3 months or less) to fly all over to get fairly basic stuff.
2 Sell limits - no one can afford to put low value crap all over space. And newbs cant fill the gap beccase they dont have the trade skills yet.
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