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Core fitting skills are the new Learning skills bottleneck.

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Lineath Quasar Project 2	Posted - 2013.05.22 16:19:00 - [1] - Quote Hi, im the ceo of my corp and im gonna throw a suggestion. We try to recruit newbies and teach them how to play but im seriously frustated getting them on to the pvp side, because the fitting skills. This group of skills, anyone that gives you a % in PG and CPU, is stoping most of the trials and newbs to get in a decent t1 frig fit, in a resonable amount of time. They simply give up. Thats almost 2+ month doing nothing than farm and mining. Some of them dont even log in except for the skill-check. I can cleary see that the same problem that existed whit the old learning skills, a bottleneck whit no gameplay involved. Then, for that reason i suggest that those skills recieve the same "treatment" or "fix" of the old learning ones. Eliminate and refund. PG/CPU depends or your ship/implants. And thats all. I think we must speed up the crucial first etapes of a new eve player, and thats my idea, please disscus.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 146	Posted - 2013.05.22 16:33:00 - [2] - Quote Nope. Work with what you have. If you are trying to make fleet doctrines with newbies on ships that were designed with all skills at 5, you are doing it wrong. It only takes a few days to get those skills at 4. If that last 5% is killing you, buy them some implants or rig their ships with some fitting mods yourself and contract them over.
Lineath Quasar Project 2	Posted - 2013.05.22 16:35:00 - [3] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: Nope. Work with what you have. If you are trying to make fleet doctrines with newbies on ships that were designed with all skills at 5, you are doing it wrong. It only takes a few days to get those skills at 4. If that last 5% is killing you, buy them some implants or rig their ships with some fitting mods yourself and contract them over. Not fleet doctrines, not a 5%. A competitive t1 frig its more than 70 days off skill training, go to evemon and check.
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 2130	Posted - 2013.05.22 16:40:00 - [4] - Quote A.) Learning skills gave your character absolutely NO BENEFIT compared to Core Fitting Skills, which have a direct and obvious benefit to fitting a ship. And while I understand some ships are very tight to fit (especially frigates, and especially when using t2 stuff), most of the time you can substitute low meta, cheap fits (which are perfect for noobs without major sources of income) and they are still competitive: For example: [Atron, CheapMetaRanis] Small 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I F85 Peripheral Damage System I Gauss Field Balancer I Experimental 1MN Afterburner I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype Engine Enervator Small 'Knave' Energy Drain Anode Light Electron Particle Cannon I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Anode Light Electron Particle Cannon I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Anode Light Electron Particle Cannon I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I I can provide fits for just about any race for inexpensive, effective combat frigates that don't require major skillpoints (think week, not months of SP). Many fits can be found here, although its not completely up to date: http://www.agony-unleashed.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Frigates
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 146	Posted - 2013.05.22 17:10:00 - [5] - Quote Lineath wrote: Mike Voidstar wrote: Nope. Work with what you have. If you are trying to make fleet doctrines with newbies on ships that were designed with all skills at 5, you are doing it wrong. It only takes a few days to get those skills at 4. If that last 5% is killing you, buy them some implants or rig their ships with some fitting mods yourself and contract them over. Not fleet doctrines, not a 5%. A competitive t1 frig its more than 70 days off skill training, go to evemon and check. You are claiming that just the skills that give more Powergrid or CPU is the bottleneck. That's just engineering and electronics. Getting them to 4 is trivial, something like a few days for both together. Level 5 is useful, but if you are looking to get pilots into fighting trim on the frigate level probably not needed. Even so, About a week each if I recall. Now if your builds are including CPU/Powergrid discounts from Weapons Upgrades and Advanced weapons Upgrades... you are asking for a bit much of your newbies, especially anything involving AWU. You have to get Weapons Upgrades to 5 to even begin training Advanced Weapons Upgrades, which is indeed a fairly long train, especially early on. Situationaly, you can get good results from a few levels in skills like Energy Grid Upgrades, Electronics Upgrades, Shield Upgrades as well... but again, these don't provide more PWG/CPU, they just make certain modules use less of it. If you are trying to guide newer players into PvP, try setting EVEMON to put all skills at 3 or 4 (except for AWU) and go from there.
Domanique Altares Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance 132	Posted - 2013.05.22 17:14:00 - [6] - Quote You can be an effective tackler in less than two weeks with none of those skills to level V. You need to learn to be realistic about what you expect from your newbies. If they are having fun, then they will stay and not become discouraged. Telling them that they can't do anything but suck until they get skills X, Y, Z to level 5, 'Because CCP,' is not going to make it fun for them. All skills to 3, got blown up, but still held the Bad Dude long enough for the rest of you to burn him down? "Good job, Newbie. Couldn't have done it without you." Also, your newbies will benefit more from good one-to-one instruction in how to pilot and fight than they ever will from having any skill trained to 5.
Ersahi Kir Infinite Mobility SpaceMonkey's Alliance 179	Posted - 2013.05.22 17:31:00 - [7] - Quote Fitting skills are fine the way they are. I would say that CCP cut the fittings on many ships tight during tiericide though.
Lineath Quasar Project 2	Posted - 2013.05.22 17:51:00 - [8] - Quote Having 30-50 dps is not fun and definetly not effective. The matter is, are they having fun? nope. They start to have fun about third month. If they do not give up. That is a fact.
Trolly McForumalt Republic University Minmatar Republic 9	Posted - 2013.05.22 18:01:00 - [9] - Quote Hmm... I think we need to be clear on a couple things here. First you claim it's just the fitting skills that are the roadblock (Engineering and Electronics) and then it's 'competitive' (whatever that is) T1 frig. The skills are fine. The only things newbs can't do is effective solo pvp. However, low skills and sub-T2 fits don't prevent newer players from effectively flying in groups. If you are not allowing them in gangs/fleets because their skills are too low that sounds like a 'you' problem. If they don't want to fly in fleets and only want to solo that sounds like a 'them' problem. None of this is a CCP problem.
brinelan The Flying Dead Ethereal Dawn 34	Posted - 2013.05.22 18:02:00 - [10] - Quote We have several new players, and roams ive done with old alliances I was in ive been in fleets with people who were either still in their trial or barely out of it, and they held their own just fine. Set up a t1 meta 0 frigate fit and go out to get blown up. Its this attitude of NEEDING to have skill whatever at X that is the problem. You can do an all t1 meta 0 fit just fine So what if it does pathetic dps, the point is to learn tactics and learn how to act in a fleet as your skills develop. There is always more skills to learn no matter how far in to the game you are, so work with what you have and have some fun.
Trolly McForumalt Republic University Minmatar Republic 9	Posted - 2013.05.22 18:04:00 - [11] - Quote Lineath wrote: Having 30-50 dps is not fun and definetly not effective. The matter is, are they having fun? nope. They start to have fun about third month. If they do not give up. That is a fact. They can fly cheap tackle until their ship and support skills are higher. If they want to solo there are several pve options open to them.
Roime Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo 2905	Posted - 2013.05.22 18:13:00 - [12] - Quote Lineath wrote: Having 30-50 dps is not fun and definetly not effective. The matter is, are they having fun? nope. They start to have fun about third month. If they do not give up. That is a fact. Sorry, but if they are not having fun, you're the one to blame. One doesn't need character skills to have fun in EVE, nor one needs character skills to win. It's all behind the chair and the screen. -á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars -
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space 344	Posted - 2013.05.22 18:13:00 - [13] - Quote I think I had more than 10 kilsl before I got any of the base fittign skills to 4. You are not supposed to send newbs to fight alone, therefore they can afford to fit weakerly.
Linna Excel Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 114	Posted - 2013.05.22 18:18:00 - [14] - Quote You don't need to max out core fitting skills for newbies. A pvp tackle frig is like 1-2 weeks training tops. It's when you get to L4s or larger pvp ships that you want everything maxed. I can has blogging skills!
Jonas Sukarala Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 196	Posted - 2013.05.22 18:20:00 - [15] - Quote having been on both sides i can say that its even easier now than 2 years ago when my main started (this is alt) when i had to train learning skills and a few weeks in i was flying around in a merlin as cheap tackle for ops. Then as i became a director training new guys i made skill plans and meta 0 fits for frigs its not hard and new guys do have fun flying frigs as i did when i was new .. its the most fun/careless time you have in eve .. knowing you make a difference in a fleet by catching a guy and hard tackling him until the heavies comes along. But not stressing about having to do dps or anything else like jamming ... fc-ing planning. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high
Lillith Sakata Reasonable People Of Sound Mind 19	Posted - 2013.05.22 19:00:00 - [16] - Quote Lineath wrote: Hi, im the ceo of my corp and im gonna throw a suggestion. We try to recruit newbies and teach them how to play but im seriously frustated getting them on to the pvp side, because the fitting skills. This group of skills, anyone that gives you a % in PG and CPU, is stoping most of the trials and newbs to get in a decent t1 frig fit, in a resonable amount of time. They simply give up. Thats almost 2+ month doing nothing than farm and mining. Some of them dont even log in except for the skill-check. I can cleary see that the same problem that existed whit the old learning skills, a bottleneck whit no gameplay involved. Then, for that reason i suggest that those skills recieve the same "treatment" or "fix" of the old learning ones. Eliminate and refund. PG/CPU depends or your ship/implants. And thats all. I think we must speed up the crucial first etapes of a new eve player, and thats my idea, please disscus. Of Sound Mind recruits only sub 15m SP pilots. While they skill into fitting stuff, they learn other things. And if you're expecting people to instantly fly certain ships and fittings, perhaps you should allow them to meta down.
Ellendras Silver Axial tilt 17	Posted - 2013.05.22 19:07:00 - [17] - Quote Lineath wrote: Mike Voidstar wrote: Nope. Work with what you have. If you are trying to make fleet doctrines with newbies on ships that were designed with all skills at 5, you are doing it wrong. It only takes a few days to get those skills at 4. If that last 5% is killing you, buy them some implants or rig their ships with some fitting mods yourself and contract them over. Not fleet doctrines, not a 5%. A competitive t1 frig its more than 70 days off skill training, go to evemon and check. rubbish i dont buy that.... 1 there are enough options to help make it fit. ofc in T1 frigs/destroyers faction mods isnt going to be an option but here are items that increase PG and or CPU and also rigs and ofc implants. or meta 4 modules plenty of options and if they drop out because of that then maybe eve isnt for them and they maybe better of with WoW or whatever. we all started at that point and yes a new player has more limits then an expierenced one but that realy doesnt mean you cant be active or usefull
Lillith Sakata Reasonable People Of Sound Mind 19	Posted - 2013.05.22 19:10:00 - [18] - Quote Lineath wrote: Having 30-50 dps is not fun and definetly not effective. The matter is, are they having fun? nope. They start to have fun about third month. If they do not give up. That is a fact. Then you're a terrible leader. Hate to be that harsh, but if that is the way you think, you're failing in some leadership ability. Maybe you should ask some of the more experienced and successful 'newbie corps' how they do it. BNI recruits only newbies. They get kills and have fun -- many times they come duke it out with SOUND -- and we both have fun. SOUND recruits only newbies. I'll just let our killboard do the speaking here. Other corps who are successful recruit only newbies. Change your expectations, get better FCs, train them harder on the real skills that matter (actual player skill not SP). I was an old time player that resubbed last year... I was killing crap my fourth day into the game.
Shepard Wong Ogeko GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 478	Posted - 2013.05.22 19:11:00 - [19] - Quote Lineath wrote: Mike Voidstar wrote: Nope. Work with what you have. If you are trying to make fleet doctrines with newbies on ships that were designed with all skills at 5, you are doing it wrong. It only takes a few days to get those skills at 4. If that last 5% is killing you, buy them some implants or rig their ships with some fitting mods yourself and contract them over. Not fleet doctrines, not a 5%. A competitive t1 frig its more than 70 days off skill training, go to evemon and check. You must being doing something wrong. We get newbees into competitive T1 cruisers and into battlecruisers in that amount of time.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 166	Posted - 2013.05.22 22:57:00 - [20] - Quote Lineath wrote: Thats almost 2+ month doing nothing than farm and mining. Some of them dont even log in except for the skill-check. I can cleary see that the same problem that existed whit the old learning skills, a bottleneck whit no gameplay involved. Then, for that reason i suggest that those skills recieve the same "treatment" or "fix" of the old learning ones. Eliminate and refund. PG/CPU depends or your ship/implants. And thats all. I think we must speed up the crucial first etapes of a new eve player, and thats my idea, please disscus. its the core fittings that are an equalizer for new players. 1 year players tend to not have these maxed, your 2 month noob is on equal fitting ground by and large with many 9 month players. Hell I as a jaded vet (not eve old enough to be bitter lol) did not have these maxed untl well into my second year of play. Was 4 good enough? Yes. Press on and it the 5 later. Worked well for me until in the second year I could revisit old skills to tweak them better. What are the fleet spec fits you are trying to push out for your noobs? Sometimes hard to fit is happenening because you are trying to do way too much with the build. I have fits like this, but I know I am trying to bend the rules of "reasonable" fitting. Are you showing your noobs the world of best named gear? Are you teaching them to lose the ego and accept sometimes you need fitting mods/rigs. Even with almost maxed skills (haven't hit rig skills 5...no desire to atm either) I have a few fits that need stuff like ACR and co-proc. Are you showing your noobs how to put in buy orders for fitting implants and the above mentioned named/igh meta gear to save money. Make a fair buy order and players like me will say screw it, I don't want to be isk warring on a trade alt for 3 days to make an extra 50K isk. Fair buy order, I fill it with the mission loot, and off I go. Also your idea to jsut go ship only.....no. YOu have slight issues. Some fitting skills are time sinks for major ship unlocks. AWU 5 for example. Its a right of passage to get marauders and dreads. Lets keep the dreads somewhat hard to get to slow down population growth.
Danika Princip Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team 1277	Posted - 2013.05.22 23:51:00 - [21] - Quote Someone should probably tell goonswarm and test to stop putting day one newbies in tackle frigs, since they're obviously neither effective, nor able to enjoy themselves. regardless of any evidence to the contrary.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 146	Posted - 2013.05.23 01:41:00 - [22] - Quote Hate to break it to you, but fitting skills are not going to get you a frigate doing a whole lot of DPS. 50 or 60 DPS is fairly reasonable for a trash fit T1 Frig even with perfect fitting skills, and newbies shouldn't be running around in T2 Gankfit Pwnmobiles 70 days in unless someone strapped them into a skillque so hard their eyeballs had to be clamped open for the learning machine to download it fast enough. At that point you should be talking about low meta fits that either pop like a bubble at the mere possibility of enemy aggression or do something other than Pew. If they are not happy because things don't vaporize when they target, try flying with them and having some drones set to assist them to give them that stroked Epeen feeling.
Jack Miton Aperture Harmonics K162 1886	Posted - 2013.05.23 02:27:00 - [23] - Quote Nope. Bad Idea. You cant just remove whatever skills new players need to train first. IF youre gonna go down that route, juts give everyone all skills at 5 and have done with it, cos thats where that path leads.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 166	Posted - 2013.05.23 07:26:00 - [24] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: If they are not happy because things don't vaporize when they target, try flying with them and having some drones set to assist them to give them that stroked Epeen feeling. the day you realize paper dps is not so real is always a heartbreaker. Then they say wtf eft lied. then you guide them to the dps grapher and go not really. Funny thing is if the noobs are not liking non insta pop kills on targets...they need to realize its a good thing. Its the same stufff that keeps them alive longer too lol.
TheSkeptic Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 215	Posted - 2013.05.23 07:27:00 - [25] - Quote Lineath wrote: Having 30-50 dps is not fun and definetly not effective. The matter is, are they having fun? nope. They start to have fun about third month. If they do not give up. That is a fact. Because we should all be able to roll 2 week old characters who can perfectly fit frigates and push out 200dps... Seriously, as others have said... it sounds like you're doing it wrong. Remove the all level 5 prereqs, use t1 & meta 3/4 gear... have fun. ...
Kenrailae Starwinders SCUM. 8	Posted - 2013.05.23 08:18:00 - [26] - Quote Core fitting skills serve as a very necessary balance. Most true new players have a massive learning curve to get through. Core skills help to slow them down and learn what they're trying to learn, not immediately hop into a 300m so and so and lose it right away because their cap lasts 10 seconds and they have no shield, armor or hull, and can't hit the broad side of a station. Removing them, or giving everyone them is not the answer. As a CEO, find ways to use what they have. As suggested, T1 tackle frigs, especially the T1 ceptor variants are very low SP, low cost and fairly easy to get into. Teach them how to tackle, keep range, and then start building them up. If you're trying to teach them PVP, they need to start at the most basic concept anyway. Once they get that down, move them to combat frigs, bit tankier, bit more skills required, but mostly the same. Then onto dessies or logi frigs or ewar frigs. Eve offers you as many ways to work with this low sp/fitting skill 'handicap' as it has reasons to justify those skills existing. The Law is a point of View
seth Hendar I love you miners 59	Posted - 2013.05.23 09:44:00 - [27] - Quote Lineath wrote: Having 30-50 dps is not fun and definetly not effective. The matter is, are they having fun? nope. They start to have fun about third month. If they do not give up. That is a fact. then YOU are doing it wrong. like other said, a 2weeks old toon is already able to be usefull, provided they are teached well. an atron or slasher used as tackler is very effective, and yes, it doesn't bring big dps, but it is fast, and if you teach him how to use it, he will survive, be on the KM, and probably on a kill that represent twice the content of his wallet (at least). seems more that YOU have an issue interesting your newbies to eve, and YOU blame CCP for it i've taken 2 and 3 weeks old players in lowsec scanned combat sites and even a 5/10 DED, we were all in frig sized, they all survived, made a good amount of money (for them, it was a big amount), and in the process, learned how to survive using speedtank. and all they had was 2 to 3 M isk frigates and they freakin enjoyed it!
Azrael Dinn The 20th Legion Mildly Sober 109	Posted - 2013.05.23 09:52:00 - [28] - Quote I would address this the way the as a CEO you know your newbies do not have all the skills required to fly the almost pimped rifter. This is fly as a CEO and a leader you are the one responsible of creating a fitting that suits them or reject their applications as they are not ready enough for your level of pimp fitting. So I see this as an management issue not a skills issue like you want to see it. No need to change the fitting skills in my opinion.
seth Hendar I love you miners 59	Posted - 2013.05.23 10:06:00 - [29] - Quote exactly in a nutshell: OP, you are bad at managing your newb
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 675	Posted - 2013.05.23 10:28:00 - [30] - Quote Roime wrote: Lineath wrote: Having 30-50 dps is not fun and definetly not effective. The matter is, are they having fun? nope. They start to have fun about third month. If they do not give up. That is a fact. Sorry, but if they are not having fun, you're the one to blame. One doesn't need character skills to have fun in EVE, nor one needs character skills to win. It's all behind the chair and the screen. I'll parrot this. Sounds like you need to have some of you older citizens devote their time to schooling the young'uns .. Eve takes a while to sink its claws into you proper, but that is online time not account age so get them online and educate them .. there is loads that can be done even in ****-fit hulls; teach them how to behave in fleets, different roles in fleets, optimal (or fun) ratting practices, intel gathering etc. Benefit of the learning-by-doing approach are well documented, and if in the course of a session a distress call goes out, how cool would it not be for a bunch of noobs to help save the day (or die trying) ... that is where retention lies, make them feel wanted/needed. Education 101.

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