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Kayemeh
Shockwave Innovations
Surely You're Joking
2
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Posted - 2013.05.23 22:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
I am annoyed that I have 574k sp trained in Citadel Torpedos that I can no longer use. These will not be refunded.
That is all. |
Kayemeh
Shockwave Innovations
Surely You're Joking
2
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Posted - 2013.05.24 22:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Max Wager wrote:Don't pretend like they weren't wasted before.
Haha, Indeed. But it was me wasting those skill points, not CCP. Makes a huge difference.
I can't think of any similar situation for a precedent. I've had plenty of skills and mods changed to where I no longer use them, but never before have I had them taken away from me. With the upcoming ship changes the Devs have said that if you can fly it before then you can fly it after the patch. Why can I no longer put Cit Torps on the Naglfar? I still have the skills. |
Kayemeh
Shockwave Innovations
Surely You're Joking
2
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Posted - 2013.06.14 10:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
I would like the devs to consider refunding the SP invested in Citadel Torps by myself and other players who have trained the Naglfar.
Minmatar dread pilots had to invest extra skill points to fly their ships due to the split weapon system. It was always a bit of a disadvantage to us. Now, with the recent changes to this ship, I no longer can fit Cit Torps on anything I fly and these SP are completely wasted.
It was suggested by customer service that I keep this thread active. |
Kayemeh
Shockwave Innovations
Surely You're Joking
3
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Posted - 2013.06.14 22:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Kayemeh wrote:I am annoyed that I have 574k sp trained in Citadel Torpedos that I can no longer use. These will not be refunded.
That is all. And if you can already Fly a Naglfar with decent skills, it will take you: 10 hours to Caldari Frig 3 + 10 hours to Caldari Dessie 3 + 25 hours to Caldari Cruiser 3 + 30 hours to Caldari BC 3 + 40 hours to Caldari BS 3: Which is 4d 19h until you can train Caldari Dread (and I bet you have a bunch of these skills already). It will take you 14d to get Dread IV, and you'll be a average Pheonix Pilot as well as a decent Naglfar Pilot. You don't "deserve" a refund, and 574k SP is only 9 days of training. How many SP did your character get with the Dessie and BC change: 2m, 4m, 6m?
I have minmatar dreadnoughts trained to 5. It would take 52 days to get Phoenix to that level, so forget about it.
But why would I ever train it even to level 4 (11 days)? They are roughly the same ship - shield tanked, capless weapon systems and mediocre.
It is a certainty that due to the latest dread changes I will never use Cit Torps again and cannot fit them on any ship I fly. My dread of choice required me to train them, but this has changed. I don't think it's unreasonable to politely ask for a dev to review if a refund is appropriate. I'm not going to get emotional about it.
Interesting that no Naglfar pilots have posted as far as I can tell. Doubt many folks fly this ship at all. |
Kayemeh
Shockwave Innovations
Surely You're Joking
3
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Posted - 2013.06.14 23:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Kayemeh wrote:I would like the devs to consider refunding the SP invested in Citadel Torps by myself and other players who have trained the Naglfar. Skillpoints are only refunded when the skill no longer has any function in the game. Citadel Torps still exist and in fact capital missiles recently got a nice little buff. You're not getting a refund.
You are almost certainly 100% correct on all points. Great about the Capital missile buff - too bad I'll only ever have them used against me though 
Has there ever been a comparable situation where a top tier weapon was deleted from a top tier ship? I don't see any harm in reviewing it, it's probably a unique situation.
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Kayemeh
Shockwave Innovations
Surely You're Joking
3
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Posted - 2013.06.15 16:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:Since the starting of this thread you have trained about 1,2 million SP. Is the status quo restored yet?
It's not the amount of skill points that matters in Eve, it's how players allocate them. My argument is that I have SP that I can no longer use due to game design changes. How is that not clear to you? |
Kayemeh
Shockwave Innovations
Surely You're Joking
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 02:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:You can still use it, you just choose not to.
Correct, I choose not to train Caldari Dreads and buy a Phoenix in order to exercise my ability to fire Citadel Torps. No thanks.
CCP did a pretty nice job with the changes to Minnie split weapon systems this year, but unfortunately the Naglfar had to lose it's missile hardpoints. If all CCP were able to do for this ship was to re-balance the skill point requirements so that it is the same as the other dreads, then I want those extra skill points that I had to waste back. |
Kayemeh
Shockwave Innovations
Surely You're Joking
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 03:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Sell it and buy another character.
It has only been 3 months.
True, but irrelevant. You might also want to add that I'm not really an active player currently. I'm keeping this account active and skilling in the hope that I will one day get regular time to play. I love this guy and Minmatar ships. I have not suffered one little bit due to the Naglfar changes. I have previously flown Revelation and Moros on other characters. and think dreads are boring, but useful tools. I liked the Naglar as it had a bit of personality before the change, but that's not part of my complaint/request.
However, I feel that the application of the changes to the Naglfar is incomplete without the refund of the skill points minmatar players used to train citadel torps. As I said before, I would love to know if there is any similar game change that could be used as a precedent. If there's nothing similar, I hope that a Dev might take note of this thread and consider the issue. |
Kayemeh
Shockwave Innovations
Surely You're Joking
3
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Posted - 2013.06.16 03:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:
CCP only refunds skillpoints when the skill is no longer usable in the game, like the learning skills.
It is true, I have agreed with this - those are the only times CCP has previously refunded skill points. I expect my request will probably be denied or ignored. I stated as much in the OP.
However, I am not sure if CCP is actually that dogmatic about it:
 I can't see any precedent that covers a design change that removes a module from the very top tier of a race's ships. Devs have often encouraged specialization and I am sure they did not intend to cost a player time in skill points or force anyone to train another race's capital ships. I believe it is unprecedented and am awaiting correction on this point.
CCP have recently granted 100,000 skillpoints to all players for recent server issues that might have impacted training if any customers were unable to log on for skill changes. We used to get dinged for this all the time, especially before the 24 hour skill queue. Compensating players for this is very new and may indicate a change of philosophy regarding customer expectations.
Devs have posted that we would be able to fly anything after the latest rebalances that we could previously even if we did not have the latest skill requirements. It's a bit of a stretch, but I don't think they intended to strand anyone with extra skills due to these design changes.
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Kayemeh
Shockwave Innovations
Surely You're Joking
3
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Posted - 2013.06.16 08:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:Kayemeh wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:Since the starting of this thread you have trained about 1,2 million SP. Is the status quo restored yet? It's not the amount of skill points that matters in Eve, it's how players allocate them. My argument is that I have SP that I can no longer use due to game design changes. How is that not clear to you? You would be hard pressed to find a player that was happy with where all their SP are. I'm 3 months old and I have about a million SP that I wish I'd put somewhere else.
Yeah, we all do that. There are a few skills for ships I'll never fly in Kayemeh that I wish weren't plugged in. Can't blame CCP for those, but it isn't the same thing as losing access to 600k sp in a design change. |
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Kayemeh
Shockwave Innovations
Surely You're Joking
3
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Posted - 2013.06.16 08:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:Kayemeh wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:Kayemeh wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:Since the starting of this thread you have trained about 1,2 million SP. Is the status quo restored yet? It's not the amount of skill points that matters in Eve, it's how players allocate them. My argument is that I have SP that I can no longer use due to game design changes. How is that not clear to you? You would be hard pressed to find a player that was happy with where all their SP are. I'm 3 months old and I have about a million SP that I wish I'd put somewhere else. Yeah, we all do that. There are a few skills for ships I'll never fly in Kayemeh that I wish weren't plugged in. Can't blame CCP for those, but it isn't the same thing as losing access to 600k sp in a design change. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean you lost access to it.
Wow, again. Didn't feel like reading more than the last post in this thread?
I have lost access, at least temporarily. I will need to train and buy a Caldari Dread. I have Minnie Dread at lvl 5, so that's 52 days and a few billion isk on a dread I don't want - all just use these 600k sp again. It's not going to happen. Would you choose to do that?
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Kayemeh
Shockwave Innovations
Surely You're Joking
3
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Posted - 2013.06.17 00:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Joan Greywind wrote:The problem is, if they refund your sp they will have to refund it in many other cases, which will make it unrealistic. If the basis of the argument is if due to design changes I stopped using a particular module or ship and hence I should be reimbursed applies to a lot of changes.
Thanks for taking the time to provide good examples. The Specific Shield comp skill changes were far more serious and frustrating than my complaint. However, I think the Naglfar problem is unique: I didn't choose to stop using a module - I actually can't use it unless I train another racial Dreadnought. It's obviously very minor among impacts to players caused by patches/changes, but I may as well try to see if the devs think it should be fixed.
Joan Greywind wrote: I think you should ask yourself the question, did the changes improve the ship you fly notwithstanding the skill cost or not? the question here is obviously yes. Before the changes you were willing to put 542k extra skill points in a worse ship. Now you have a better ship for less skill cost and you should have an increase in overall utility
The Naglfar change was obviously intended to make the ship competitive and balance it as far as skill points. Great. The problem is that exisitng Naglfar pilots (or am I the only one?) still have the same amount of skill points invested.
I think it's a bit of a botched job, and the present configuration is largely due to the graphic model of the Naglfar and the desire to prevent it from flying as a missile only boat. If they'd had an extra hardpoint to play with they might have implemented the same type of bonuses/ hardpoint allocation for split weapons they used on the crusier class. Maybe this is what they'll do in the future. |
Kayemeh
Shockwave Innovations
Surely You're Joking
11
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Posted - 2013.07.18 02:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
GTN wrote:As a Naglfar pilot I think that, for the sake of fairness, CCP should reimburse the now useless capital missile skills that Naglfar pilots trained.
They are useless because in order to use them, great sacrifices have to be made to fly a phoenix, which performs worse than the Naglfar.
I expect people to complain to me that I should be happy that my naglfar performs better than a phoenix, but just anything performs better than a phoenix, and no one would ever train for one.
Well said.
I think it's logical that reimbursing the cap missile skills should have been part of the Naglfar fix. It's a shame that so many Minmatar pilots are inured to this kind of treatment by CCP - this thread needs more support. |
Kayemeh
Shockwave Innovations
Surely You're Joking
11
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 10:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Linda Shadowborn wrote:I finished training capital torps and cruises (just in case you know) JUUST as they announced the nag would lose its launchers. so i never even got to fire them
Am I mad about that? Nope, not in the least. As people say, you never know what the future holds and having it trained is always nice. You at least got use out of your capital missile skills, I still havent fired a single capital missile.
Things change, and as long as the skill is still useful and it is then why whine. I swear it is like super pilots and drones all over again but on a much smaller scale.
Linda, this was one of the most perplexing posts I've read in quite a while. Did you seriously train Citadel Cruise to 5 after already having Torps 'finished' and never having flown a Naglfar to test them? If so then I'm pretty sure you planned to train for the Phoenix anyway. I predict you never fly either of those dreads, but will think that it's nice that you can if you ever should have to. If my saying this motivates you to actually buy one (it won't) then I hope you get tackled by a t1 frigate pilot who laughs at your lack of drones.
My own position on this has already been called a 'whine' by several posters and I can accept that. However, you have failed to think objectively and your condescending attitude is hard to tolerate. Instead of sharing your bland conformism here, please face the fact that all your capital ship skills are wasted and go mourn those months of lost time in private. |
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