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Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
198
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Posted - 2011.10.20 21:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
I consider myself somewhat of a EVE veteran, having created my char and played the game ever since before the Trinity engine. But i have never, ever used hybrids and i never had any interest in them. I have trained and i use all other weapon types up to BS T2 weapons, both variations of each kind.
So i have always been curious about what is so wrong with them that so many of us complain so loudly about.
All i have ever seen is "Hybrids are b0rken" or "fix hyrbids k thx". If they Hybrids are that broken, then someone will be able to explain to me what is broken in a few short sentences without needing to critically hit me for 65536 damage with a Wall-of-Text.
What is wrong with hybrids, and why do they need fixing? Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Kumq uat
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
23
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Posted - 2011.10.20 21:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
This issue has been beaten to death but just for you sugar bear, one more time in a TLDR fashion.
Blasters no longer have sufficient damage or tracking compared to using AC or Pulses. They take cap, lots of fitting space, and due to changes in webs and slowness of armor tanked Gallente ships have issues getting into range, and even when they get into range their tracking is bad for being in so closewhich negates half their damage anyways. Blasters are supposed to be face melters, not jokes.
Rails have outstanding range but crap DPS, their fitting requirements are also insane. Range is no big deal as it is easily fixed by a quick probe or inty getting on you. Rails really have no business in PvP currently. |
Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
29
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Posted - 2011.10.20 21:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:I consider myself somewhat of a EVE veteran, having created my char and played the game ever since before the Trinity engine. But i have never, ever used hybrids and i never had any interest in them. I have trained and i use all other weapon types up to BS T2 weapons, both variations of each kind.
So i have always been curious about what is so wrong with them that so many of us complain so loudly about.
All i have ever seen is "Hybrids are b0rken" or "fix hyrbids k thx". If they Hybrids are that broken, then someone will be able to explain to me what is broken in a few short sentences without needing to critically hit me for 65536 damage with a Wall-of-Text.
What is wrong with hybrids, and why do they need fixing?
IIRC, hybrid weapons aren't an effective alternative to most of the existing weapons; they're not strong enough in any particular area to justify the expense and CPU cycles.
But then, I'm talking pretty much out of my ear and I'm probably waaaaay offbase. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
183
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Posted - 2011.10.20 21:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Blasters aren't good enough for what they did, and are largely irrelevant for what we do.
Rails can't do much beyond tickle, borrowing the cons of the other weapons without much benefit. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
23
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Posted - 2011.10.20 21:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Welp.
Railguns: - low DPS - low alpha - Fixed damage type - Awful Tracking - High fitting requirements - High cap use
Blasters: - Extremely short optimal - Extremely short falloff - Fixed damage type - High fitting requirements - High cap use
Caldari hybrid boats are innately extremely slow with a weak cap and subsequently can't kite worth a damn and only the T2 caldari blaster ships get a DPS increasing bonus.
Gallente hybrid boats are typically designed to be armor tanks which makes them slow and their racial tank type is an active armor tank which is heavily cap dependant. So a gallente ship fit according to its racial archetype needs to be running armor repairers, a microwarpdrive and cap consuming guns all at the same time. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
44
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Posted - 2011.10.20 21:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:I consider myself somewhat of a EVE veteran, having created my char and played the game ever since before the Trinity engine. But i have never, ever used hybrids and i never had any interest in them. I have trained and i use all other weapon types up to BS T2 weapons, both variations of each kind.
So i have always been curious about what is so wrong with them that so many of us complain so loudly about.
All i have ever seen is "Hybrids are b0rken" or "fix hyrbids k thx". If they Hybrids are that broken, then someone will be able to explain to me what is broken in a few short sentences without needing to critically hit me for 65536 damage with a Wall-of-Text.
What is wrong with hybrids, and why do they need fixing?
First the ships themselves don't have the tank,speed, agility, enough cap recharge/mid slots and/or the dedicated bonus for blasters and/or rails, active tanking or buffer tanking adding penalty's on your speed agility cap
Hybrids overall, have total crap:
range engagement and tracking+dmg application envelope for blasters alpha, tracking, ammo for rails dps/alpha for both ton fitting requirements for both ton cap use for both ammo type and dmg type distribution for both ammo cap and/or tracking penalty ammo reload and/or size (reducing your capacity to hold more cap charges just to keep you shooting under neuts)
You play caldari from what I can read in your post introduction, why don't you use rails and blasters in your Moa, Rokh, Tengu, Ferox, Eagle etc etc?
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Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
72
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Posted - 2011.10.20 21:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Imagine giving a weeble woble an Axe, not tell it to chase the cat.
You are getting close to hybrids now. You'll have better luck getting a buffalo to fly than getting eve to be fair.-á |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
15
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Posted - 2011.10.20 21:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Blasters: If we catch it, we should kill it. That doesn't happen because blaster tracking at its intended range sucks. The drawbacks to blasters are too numerous to count (fitting reqs too steep, vulnerable to neuts, tds, yada, yada, yada..), but in return for all these drawbacks we should be able to melt anything that comes within optimal.
Rails: Arties are better in every way, use no cap. Somebody suggested reducing railgun fitting reqs to fit their fail performance. You could then use the extra slots for other stuff.
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Cambarus
Clearly Compensating The Dark Triad
12
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Posted - 2011.10.20 21:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ignoring the geddon vs mega comparison that I've done to death already, here's a quick look at a neutron blaster cannon II vs a MPL II. No ammo or ship bonuses, just the raw stats:
~17% more DPS on blasters. ~333% More range on pulses (not even counting the absurdity that is scorch) ~28% more raw tracking on blasters ~260% better tracking in optimal for pulses. |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
201
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 11:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Renan Ruivo wrote:I consider myself somewhat of a EVE veteran, having created my char and played the game ever since before the Trinity engine. But i have never, ever used hybrids and i never had any interest in them. I have trained and i use all other weapon types up to BS T2 weapons, both variations of each kind.
So i have always been curious about what is so wrong with them that so many of us complain so loudly about.
All i have ever seen is "Hybrids are b0rken" or "fix hyrbids k thx". If they Hybrids are that broken, then someone will be able to explain to me what is broken in a few short sentences without needing to critically hit me for 65536 damage with a Wall-of-Text.
What is wrong with hybrids, and why do they need fixing? First the ships themselves don't have the tank,speed, agility, enough cap recharge/mid slots and/or the dedicated bonus for blasters and/or rails, active tanking or buffer tanking adding penalty's on your speed agility cap Hybrids overall, have total crap: range engagement tracking+ ammo penalty's +dmg application envelope for blasters alpha, tracking, ammo for rails dps/alpha for both ton fitting requirements for both ton cap use for both ammo type and dmg type distribution for both ammo cap and/or tracking penalty ammo reload and/or size (reducing your capacity to hold more cap charges just to keep you shooting under neuts) You play caldari from what I can read in your post introduction, why don't you use rails and blasters in your Moa, Rokh, Tengu, Ferox, Eagle etc etc? Edit: to play any decent gallente hull you need: MWD+Web+Scram+Cap injector In ships with dedicated bonus: Armor rep: very cap hungry when cycling, high power grid/cpu requirements, too long cycle (the shorter it is the faster you cap out anyway) So let's pick the Hyperion for example: you are running 100% of the fights mwd+rep+web+scram+guns+cap inj (uses cap and pg...) With all the drawbacks I've mentioned just above, how could you seriously advice/use for a single second Gallente and Hybrids? You can, and you can even succeed, but you're a dead body to your fleet/gang, pain in the ass for your logis and all those drawbacks will not be seen that much just because all your other team mates (in canes drakes and harbi) will do the bigger job for you.
I've used hybrids on a Moa (and on a cormorant before it) back in trinity but then i climbed on a drake and havent looked back since. Got on a raven, hated it then trained lasers and nightmare for PVE.. mega beam for apoc sniping... artillery for artybaddon fleets and also some mr sniping and autocannons for the mach on ocasional specific PVE. (lasers against angels make me cry).
But at any rate, if the developers didn't have a basic list on whats wrong with hybrids they do now. Thanks =) Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
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Rhinanna
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
22
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Posted - 2011.10.21 13:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
There is nothing wrong with blasters, at least not the small and mids.
What is wrong are the hulls they are mounted on.
When webs were uber, then blasters rocked cos the transversal problem didn't exist and the nano nerf stops blasters from even getting into range in the first place.
What needs to happen IMHO, is the hulls redesigned to fit blasters. The gun still has a useful niche, at the moment its STILL the most effective gun if you have a rapier pinning down the enemy for you, or the enemy is much bigger than you, but in equal combat it kinda sucks ;)
Redesign the blaster boats to shield tank (6 mids, 4 lows on a brutix as an example), this leaves space for a couple of mag-stabs + nano + DC in the lows, a web + Mwd + point + tank in the mids, throw in a web bonus and you've got something nice.
For bonuses just give a standard DPS bonus + web bonus and you've got a really nice Bruitx. (I'm balancing it against T2 BCs, not T1 or it would need to lose another slot to be as crap as the cyclone ;) )
Leave the drone boats as armour tanked. If any other race than Minmatar should dual tank, it should be Gal.
Buffing blasters to the point where they will become effective on the current Gal hulls will just make them overpowered when fitted on Minmatar hulls that don't have many gun bonuses. They are already as good as ACs, its just the lack of an ability to use them that is the problem.
-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more)-á |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
203
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
I see what you mean. I do hope, however they do that instead of just turning hybrids into inverted projectile weapons. Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis
206
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
So you weren't a troll after all then?
Yeah hybrids are pretty bad right now. The only ships we generally fly in our armor fleets are Amarr. They have better tank, comparable DPS and better range.
Gallente ships really need some love. |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
203
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mekhana wrote:So you weren't a troll after all then?
Yeah hybrids are pretty bad right now. The only ships we generally fly in our armor fleets are Amarr. They have better tank, comparable DPS and better range.
Gallente ships really need some love.
Nah i tend to troll threads from times to times.. but just those that make no sense and/or are whine threads. I genuinely did not knew what the problem with hybrids was since i never had the need to train for them. PVE is better done with a combination of laser and projectile, and PVP is also already dominated by laser and projectile so i never had the need nor desire to delve into hybrids, or gallente ships.
Besides.. who knows might help team BFF put things in perspective. Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
gfldex
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
The single biggest issue are short range scrams. For any medium or small blaster user getting your MWD switched off means you do less then 50% damage all the time. If there is an Arazu around you sit at 20km and watch your drones shoot the target.
Before we got T2 ships you had a really good chance to hit into a resi hole with your kin/therm damage. Now you want to shoot minmatar and minmatar ships only with hybrids. The speed nerf that was meant to take out some lolfits hit blaster boats the most.
Blaster boats benefit the least from rigs. You don't really need the PG rigs and you don't really want to slow yourself down with trimarks. Before we got rigs you could either fit tachs or damage mods. You couldn't really have both. As a result the mega was king of sniping because you could actually fit it. With PG rigs that changed. Not to speak about the nightmare and the paladin that can both fit tachs and a reasonable fittings without any fitting mods.
If you run T2 rails on a Rokh you will end up at 50% capa before you ever boosted any shield. You can't really have an active tank on it. Thanks to the crappy base damage of rails that's not an issue because you don't really want to use them anyways. If you see somebody in a Rokh you can be assured it's the only gun ship he can fly.
To sum it up hybrids have the biggest gap between EFT and battlefield damage. There are lots and lots of little problems that make fitting blasters a gamble. |
Aston Bradley
Through the Looking Glass
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 23:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
The issue with blasters isn't the damage. Fall off and traking are the real problem as you can't apply that dps.
In solo : you will be kitted.
In a large fleet : target are usually far away from you. By the time you get to range, you will either be dead or your target will be. The fact that gallente arn't the fastest ships around dosn't help.
And let us not forget that each shot with blasters consumes a big amout of cap, which dosn't give much of choice. Either tank, or dps. The hyperion is the good exemple of that. Start tanking with the hyperion (what it's intended to do) and you will end up with a BS that has the dps of a BC with the traking of a BS.
Railguns, are just bad in all aspects. The extra range dosn't compensate for the lack of dps.
Right now, the only strenght of gallente ships are drones. Blasters are too situational.
CPP needs increase to either increase the range of hybrids or lower gallente CPU/powergrid/capacitor needs so that they arn't forced to either dps or tank. |
Varesk
Maelstrom Crew
29
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 23:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:I consider myself somewhat of a EVE veteran, having created my char and played the game ever since before the Trinity engine. But i have never, ever used hybrids and i never had any interest in them. I have trained and i use all other weapon types up to BS T2 weapons, both variations of each kind.
So i have always been curious about what is so wrong with them that so many of us complain so loudly about.
All i have ever seen is "Hybrids are b0rken" or "fix hyrbids k thx". If they Hybrids are that broken, then someone will be able to explain to me what is broken in a few short sentences without needing to critically hit me for 65536 damage with a Wall-of-Text.
What is wrong with hybrids, and why do they need fixing?
because everything else has been buffed and hybrids will start the cycle over.
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Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
4
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Posted - 2011.10.21 23:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
What I dislike most about them is that they are bonused for Caldari ships, especially new player ships.
How many new caldari players have dived into Gunnery only to stop and switch to Missles.
Then you get to BS and the biggest ship is, Gunnery, great.
Then you get to Advanced/Faction BS and guess what?
Back to missles.
Pick a damm type, one or the other, having both sucks.
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Kietay Ayari
Dangerously Inebriated Enterprises Monopoly Money Operations
2
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Posted - 2011.10.21 23:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
I do not have much experience at all with hybrids but it makes me sad to hear they are not on par with everything else. All the pretty Caldari ships are the gunboats, and I am a Caldari pilot! If they fix them I will fly the Ferox 23/7 :D |
Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
79
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 23:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
so, in fact we need to switch hull between gallente and minmatar, for things to works ? |
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Aston Bradley
Through the Looking Glass
10
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Posted - 2011.10.21 23:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kietay Ayari wrote:I do not have much experience at all with hybrids but it makes me sad to hear they are not on par with everything else. All the pretty Caldari ships are the gunboats, and I am a Caldari pilot! If they fix them I will fly the Ferox 23/7 :D
CCP said they will look into them after winter. Crossing fingers that they won't mess up this time. |
Laura Holt
Republic University Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2011.10.21 23:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
My post will sum the whole issue up for you, and be just as effective as a Hybrid weapon.
Plink Plink Plink
See how your shields are still at 100%? |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
47
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Posted - 2011.10.22 00:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
And guys, wait the new tiers BC's to come out with their BS sized guns...
We're going to see scorch pulse bc's shooting from 65km, 800MM AC's from almost 100km, cruise from...the moon or whatever doesn't even matter at this point...
..and then you've got the "Forest Gump" of Eve, let me please introduce you the BS guns sized Tier 3 Gallente Battle cruiser: Uselessgun Run Run
1.5Km optimal and 20 of fall off, every one knows how important fall off is for blasters, don't ya?
-Can fit a single one, yeah doesn't have enough PG or Cap to shoot more than once every 30min, would be overpowered otherwise.
A single mid slot, for the cap injector OC, no need to run after your enemy, let it come to you because you are the ULTRA POWNER of the universe who can make blasters shine like any one else !! -OC you are going to loose a few ones before you understand your enemy is not that idiot than you.
4 lows: 1DC2 to make your enemy cry because he can't kill your brick with one shot (except if it's the minmatar counterpart) 1 for the energised explosive plating (T2 best heh) 1 for the Energised Adaptive Nano plating Since you don't have enough PG or cap to fit the rep you can fit one 200 Rolled tungsten
And guys at this point your tank is just ubber, bigger than any other ship, doesn't matter if you'll never catch them anyway, you have the best tank of all !!
Plus, the hideous looking of dominix crossed with vexor, camo paint OC, gold version on next store.
What do you guys think? |
Rhinanna
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
23
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Posted - 2011.10.22 02:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
Love how the blaster freaks are comparing a blaster's optimal with a AC's Optimal + 2x Fall-off (at which range even a Mael is doing around 50dps)
The Gal blaster boats should be slower NOT faster than Minmatar ships, ACs are completely useless without the speed advantage. Blasters PWN ACs at short range, lasers PWN ACs at long range. There is no middle ground where ACs are the best.
Simply change all the blaster boats to shield tanks with a web bonus (range is best I think for 1st, effectiveness if there is a 2nd one for T2s) and they are already bordering on overpowered. Anything that comes in range is either webbed to the point blasters can track it or simply nuked by the higher blaster DPS. Job done. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more)-á |
Cambarus
Clearly Compensating The Dark Triad
23
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Posted - 2011.11.02 00:31:00 -
[25] - Quote
Rhinanna wrote:Love how the blaster freaks are comparing a blaster's optimal with a AC's Optimal + 2x Fall-off (at which range even a Mael is doing around 50dps)
The Gal blaster boats should be slower NOT faster than Minmatar ships, ACs are completely useless without the speed advantage. Blasters PWN ACs at short range, lasers PWN ACs at long range. There is no middle ground where ACs are the best.
Simply change all the blaster boats to shield tanks with a web bonus (range is best I think for 1st, effectiveness if there is a 2nd one for T2s) and they are already bordering on overpowered. Anything that comes in range is either webbed to the point blasters can track it or simply nuked by the higher blaster DPS. Job done. Typically when discussing AC range you use optimal+1x falloff.
With that in mind, the fact that you prefer flying minmatar is pretty obvious if you genuinely think, other mechanics aside, that the fastest race should also be the one with the most flexible weapon system. Typically speaking, most fights do not start in blaster range, which means that the gallente, in order to apply their damage, need to close the gap. Have a look at the difference in dps between the gun types at close ranges, then look at them at long range. As a rule, you get much more even DPS at 5km than you do at 50, which means, for the sake of balance, it should be much easier to get into the 5km range than it should be to maintain a much longer one.
That said, I'd much rather not buff gallente's agility/speed, because that's not what they're supposed to be good at (despite the fact that the speed/range ratio for minmatar is way off when compared to just about every other game in existence). What I would LIKE to see is for CCP to get rid of all these silly falloff bonuses on t2 hulls, lower the base falloff of blasters, and up the damage. There's nothing wrong with a fight being decided entirely on whether or not the blaster ship actually gets to apply its damage, a fight where the actual pilot skill is the main deciding factor, and it would be a nice buff to gallente without having them step on anyone else's toes. |
Amro One
One.
19
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Posted - 2011.11.02 00:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
Calls him self a veteran and has never used hybrids, what BS, probably a stupid high-sec carebear doing missions in his drake still. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
117
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 01:48:00 -
[27] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Ignoring the geddon vs mega comparison that I've done to death already, here's a quick look at a neutron blaster cannon II vs a MPL II. No ammo or ship bonuses, just the raw stats:
~17% more DPS on blasters. ~333% More range on pulses (not even counting the absurdity that is scorch) ~28% more raw tracking on blasters ~260% better tracking in optimal for pulses.
and things aren't much better vs AC too.
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
6
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Posted - 2011.11.02 02:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:And guys, wait the new tiers BC's to come out with their BS sized guns...
We're going to see scorch pulse bc's shooting from 65km, 800MM AC's from almost 100km, cruise from...the moon or whatever doesn't even matter at this point...
Because if you can tank a fart a 100km AC ship isn't a threat...at all, my Comet can tank that , and has ample time to warp.
Personally I LOVE all of the T3 BCs, they are going to mean that Drakes and Canes online is over, because SOMETHING is going to have to take those beasts out and I doubt the standard fleet of mixed cranes and drakes is going to cut it, the T3s will never have to come into range.
Yay for easily counterable ships.
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David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
164
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Posted - 2011.11.02 03:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
Kumq uat wrote:This issue has been beaten to death but just for you sugar bear, one more time in a TLDR fashion.
Blasters no longer have sufficient damage or tracking compared to using AC or Pulses. They take cap, lots of fitting space, and due to changes in webs and slowness of armor tanked Gallente ships have issues getting into range, and even when they get into range their tracking is bad for being in so closewhich negates half their damage anyways. Blasters are supposed to be face melters, not jokes.
Rails have outstanding range but crap DPS, their fitting requirements are also insane. Range is no big deal as it is easily fixed by a quick probe or inty getting on you. Rails really have no business in PvP currently.
you also forgot the hybrid damage are limited to thermal and kinetic.... most ships are either weak vs em (shield tanks) or weak vs explosive (armor tanks)
missiles and projectiles can do all damage types depending on which flavour
lasers do em / thermal with is great vs shield tanks.... not so great vs armor tanks unless in great numbers
most ships have decent kin thermal resists natively to shields and armor making hybrid ammo less effective. Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless your from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs. |
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