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Freighter Production pointless ?

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TrAdEsMaN1	Posted - 2005.10.24 20:04:00 - [1] This is not a whine but merely an observation. Just today i have noticed people willing to sell freighters for as little as 950 mil, seeing as they cost 900 mil to build i am failing to see the point in building these at all. People there saying "hey you are still making 50 mil profit" but they are failing to realize that you have spent 6 bil + getting the bpo's, days gathering the minerals required to build the components, then a week or so to build the components, and then another week or so to build the freighter itself to only make 50 mil profit. Now in my opinion this is simply not worth it as you could easily make this profit selling 3 or 4 battleships which take less than a day to build. Anyone else agree with me, that if it were not for some people who keep undercutting and undercutting everyone else untill the selling price reaches basically build cost this would be a decent investment.
Kyle Caldrel	Posted - 2005.10.24 20:07:00 - [2] Freighter bpos werent suposed to be payed for over night.
TrAdEsMaN1	Posted - 2005.10.24 20:09:00 - [3] I agree with that, but 50 mil for basically 3 weeks - month's work is pathetic.
Megadon	Posted - 2005.10.24 20:11:00 - [4] The problem is that Eve is filled with really really bad business people who do not factor in their time and effort in determining profit. They seem (cuz i really don't know) to only factor in the isk, which for me, is only a small fraction of the overall equation. I don't think most producers have a good handle on their actual cost. Spreadsheets ftw! I mean look how cheaply you can purchase ANY ship (with hacs and t2 frigs being the only exceptions). You can buy a Raven for 104 million, a geddon for 60 mill. That is just nuts.
Hellspawn666	Posted - 2005.10.24 20:12:00 - [5] All depends how you play it really if your in a large group and mass produce them then 50 mil per ship profit margin aint too bad if your just selling one a month then yeh you wont make anything market will reflect a fair price. People wont build them if price is to low and thus price will rise just let the eve economy balance itself.
Seleene	Posted - 2005.10.24 20:12:00 - [6] Originally by: TrAdEsMaN1 seeing as they cost 900 mil to build Try 690 - 730. Where are you buying your minerals? BTW, this post does not mean I know anything at all about Frieghter production or any other sort of carebear activity. - We're outnumbered! That simplifies the problem!
Deovina	Posted - 2005.10.24 20:13:00 - [7] Edited by: Deovina on 24/10/2005 20:14:03 Originally by: Kyle Caldrel Freighter bpos werent suposed to be payed for over night. Actually if your investment didn't pay for itself in the weeks after release (with decent profit) you are not going to make your investment back in a sane amount of time. (Except if you are building freighters in order to make the profit by using the freighter but thats a whole different story (and you could just buy the freighter anyway). It's just the common problem with T1 "production". No big surprise. edit: typo
Megadon	Posted - 2005.10.24 20:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Seleene BTW, this post does not mean I know anything at all about Frieghter production or any other sort of carebear activity. Hahahaaa You're a closet bear and you know it, you just know how to shoot!
Takitoo	Posted - 2005.10.24 20:17:00 - [9] You also have to keep in mind that you're selling to a minority market at this point. Few people can fly freighters. Ergo, few people will buy them. I'm sure sales will pick up once the skills become standard fare and their worth has been proven a couple times.
So'Kar	Posted - 2005.10.24 20:20:00 - [10] Supply/demand. In this freighter production there is very little demand and not many freighters get destroyed, since players are extra carefull with these(well most are atleast) because 1) it cost a lot 2) cargo can be very expensive to replace.

Winterblink	Posted - 2005.10.24 20:20:00 - [11] Originally by: Megadon The problem is that Eve is filled with really really bad business people who do not factor in their time and effort in determining profit. No, the problem is that people who don't care about that stuff will completely undercut the price of people who do. :) winterblink warp drive active.http://winterblink.com/wda nature vraie.http://winterblink.com/env
Derron Bel	Posted - 2005.10.24 20:45:00 - [12] Edited by: Derron Bel on 24/10/2005 20:46:01 Okay. I Just ran through a spreadsheet. TO get a $895,000,000 equivalent minerals price for the Providence, I had to use the following prices: Tritanium 3.00 Pyerite 7.00 Mexallon 20.00 Isogen 150.00 Nocxium 400.00 Megacyte 4100.00 Zydrine 4100.00 Morphite 25000.00 which are not current market prices. Current market prices where I am give about $720 million price tag. (edit: that's with no ME research, of course.) -==- Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise! LooseCannoN> ahh! LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled!
Serin Reik	Posted - 2005.10.24 20:52:00 - [13] One important thing hasn't been mentioned. Freighters may indeed be selling for 950 million isk now, but you can't forget that things weren't always this way. When freighters first hit the market, some people were fortunate enough to sell them for 2 billion isk each. The reason that is important to point out is because you make the majority of your investment back in these first few production runs. If you get in while an item is 'hot' you can certainly make back your original investment. It's the people trying to enter freighter production now, at this juncture that will really have to struggle. And about skills, true that only a small number of people have them, but they've had weeks to train them (assuming they really wanted to pilot a freighter). With every passing day however, more producers tried entering the market, and that's been putting continuous downward pressure on prices. In short: Sell the item while it's still HOT. Founder and CEO Reik Laboratories
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2005.10.24 21:00:00 - [14] If they're making that little profit take your huge wallet buy them all and mark them up for reselling. I'm Danton Marcellus and I approve of this message.
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.10.24 21:43:00 - [15] Far more clever Frieghter producers are using their BPO to make their own frieghter and then collect minerals in bulk from areas that are cheaper then the Jita/Ours pricing being quoted.
Andicuri Vas	Posted - 2005.10.24 21:50:00 - [16] Originally by: Winterblink No, the problem is that people who don't care about that stuff will completely undercut the price of people who do. :) Capitalism 4tw! \o/ A V
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.10.24 22:22:00 - [17] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 24/10/2005 22:23:47 Originally by: Megadon The problem is that Eve is filled with really really bad business people who do not factor in their time and effort in determining profit. Actually they do, they just value their time spend mining diffrently then you do and thus they can produce cheaper ships i would say . Sure, they might be making less profit then they could selling the minerals seperately but hey, the market is a painfull place to work ------------------ [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
MarieDanae Alliaume	Posted - 2005.10.24 22:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 24/10/2005 22:23:47 Originally by: Megadon The problem is that Eve is filled with really really bad business people who do not factor in their time and effort in determining profit. Actually they do, they just value their time spend mining diffrently then you do and thus they can produce cheaper ships i would say . Sure, they might be making less profit then they could selling the minerals seperately but hey, the market is a painfull place to work Actually, they don't. If they did value their time then items would cost alot more.
Aeon	Posted - 2005.10.24 22:57:00 - [19] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Megadon The problem is that Eve is filled with really really bad business people who do not factor in their time and effort in determining profit. No, the problem is that people who don't care about that stuff will completely undercut the price of people who do. :) The thing is here in EVE the people don't need to pay for a living. They don't need to pay the rent, pay the bills. They can simply do whatever they want. If a guy comes home for work and logs on, he might want to sell that freighter that just came out of the factory as soon as possible while he's still online. People aren't always rational in games, and I think that's what it's partially about.
infused	Posted - 2005.10.24 23:22:00 - [20] I always factor in my time when trading. If I have to carry x amount of stuff x amount of jumps I had x % every x jumps if that makes sense... You going to travel 20 jumps and not charge for that time? I seriously hope you are.

MWEI	Posted - 2005.10.24 23:31:00 - [21] i saw someone selling the Armar freighter BPO for 1 bil the other day (no Im not confused, I checked it a few times and was sure it was the BPO of the providence). The seller proberbly messed it up when hes trying to escrow the actual freighter. I guess whoever bought that BPO for 1 bil must be selling them at low prices. (wish I had 1 bil at the time to take advantage of such a good deal)
Ja'kar	Posted - 2005.10.25 16:04:00 - [22] .
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.10.25 16:19:00 - [23] Originally by: TrAdEsMaN1 This is not a whine but merely an observation. Just today i have noticed people willing to sell freighters for as little as 950 mil, seeing as they cost 900 mil to build i am failing to see the point in building these at all. People there saying "hey you are still making 50 mil profit" but they are failing to realize that you have spent 6 bil + getting the bpo's, days gathering the minerals required to build the components, then a week or so to build the components, and then another week or so to build the freighter itself to only make 50 mil profit. Now in my opinion this is simply not worth it as you could easily make this profit selling 3 or 4 battleships which take less than a day to build. Anyone else agree with me, that if it were not for some people who keep undercutting and undercutting everyone else untill the selling price reaches basically build cost this would be a decent investment. This isn't the fault of CCP, its the fault of the sellers. In addition, with the collapse of mineral prices (trit in particular), freighters are loads cheaper to build. - Proud member of the [23]. Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
Thomas Torquemada	Posted - 2005.10.25 16:41:00 - [24] If someone is willing to sell much lower than you and for smaller profit, they attract the buyers, meaning they get all the custom. Lots of custom at lower prices builds up, its just good marketing, they have all the customer base, you (eventually) do not. UPC - PVP'ers Good and Bad, How Do You Want Peace? Through Talk Or In A Casket? We Decide! Peace My Brothers...
Trak Cranker	Posted - 2005.10.25 16:46:00 - [25] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 24/10/2005 22:23:47 Originally by: Megadon The problem is that Eve is filled with really really bad business people who do not factor in their time and effort in determining profit. Actually they do, they just value their time spend mining diffrently then you do and thus they can produce cheaper ships i would say . Sure, they might be making less profit then they could selling the minerals seperately but hey, the market is a painfull place to work Its not a matter of them being able "to produce ships cheaper". Its about them valueing their mins and builing times and BPO RoIs like morons or like they just dont care. Thats just a fact of MMORPG life. You set your own wage and you don't have to live of it(unless you are a goldfarmer sweatshopper :-). Doesn't make those people any smarter and/or any less annoying though. :) Please resize your signature so that it is within the forum rule size limits - Jacques
Kurren	Posted - 2005.10.25 17:00:00 - [26] Originally by: Trak Cranker Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 24/10/2005 22:23:47 Originally by: Megadon The problem is that Eve is filled with really really bad business people who do not factor in their time and effort in determining profit. Actually they do, they just value their time spend mining diffrently then you do and thus they can produce cheaper ships i would say . Sure, they might be making less profit then they could selling the minerals seperately but hey, the market is a painfull place to work Its not a matter of them being able "to produce ships cheaper". Its about them valueing their mins and builing times and BPO RoIs like morons or like they just dont care. Thats just a fact of MMORPG life. You set your own wage and you don't have to live of it(unless you are a goldfarmer sweatshopper :-). Doesn't make those people any smarter and/or any less annoying though. :) We call them morons or whatever, but... we'd all be complaining if the ships cost more too. Pick a side. Personally, I like cheap ships... I'm sure they do too... I'm sure they also know that nobody is going to buy the expensive ship. When you look on the market, you buy the cheapest item. Not the item thats minerals were valued sentamentaly. Lets all just shut up and agree that we like spending less money... if you don't want to sell your ships for cheap... don't, but don't come forum flaming cause nobody's buying them. ************************************************ I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist...
Tophereon	Posted - 2005.10.25 17:12:00 - [27] Edited by: Tophereon on 25/10/2005 17:13:23 Edited by: Tophereon on 25/10/2005 17:13:02 Originally by: infused I always factor in my time when trading. If I have to carry x amount of stuff x amount of jumps I had x % every x jumps if that makes sense... You going to travel 20 jumps and not charge for that time? I seriously hope you are. It's a nice thought but you simply won't sell your products if they are higher than the market price. I used to always match the market price because it seemed stupid to drive down the price, but the simple fact is that if I undercut I sell everything. I never have any stock now. I used to travel to 20+ regions with my products and see them sit there on the market. Now I travel to about 4 regions only but sell everything. PS. I don't sell freighters but I assume the market dynamics are the same. Toph.
Soulita	Posted - 2005.10.25 17:21:00 - [28] Its market dynamics and supply/demand. The more expensive an item, the lower the number of potential buyers. If many people produce that expensive item (cause they need to get their investments back) the market will be fairly filled with that item. If the market has an oversupply - prices will drop. Take the deimos or other HACs as a contrary example: Many would be buyers, but only very few produced - prices will rise.
Nostradamu5	Posted - 2005.10.25 17:33:00 - [29] Originally by: Aeon The thing is here in EVE the people don't need to pay for a living. They don't need to pay the rent, pay the bills. They can simply do whatever they want. If a guy comes home for work and logs on, he might want to sell that freighter that just came out of the factory as soon as possible while he's still online. People aren't always rational in games, and I think that's what it's partially about. OK you shut up! Don't give them crazy Devs any ideas about charging hangar rent! Imagine having to pay rent for your ship and hangar items where ever you may have left them! I would be really ****ed that would cut into my slacker lifestyle. Yes I've been known to Target, Sling and serve up large portions of fecal matter.
Trak Cranker	Posted - 2005.10.25 17:37:00 - [30] Edited by: Trak Cranker on 25/10/2005 17:38:03 Originally by: Kurren Originally by: Trak Cranker Originally by: Megadon <snip> <snip> We call them morons or whatever, but... we'd all be complaining if the ships cost more too. Pick a side. Personally, I like cheap ships... I'm sure they do too... I'm sure they also know that nobody is going to buy the expensive ship. When you look on the market, you buy the cheapest item. Not the item thats minerals were valued sentamentaly. Lets all just shut up and agree that we like spending less money... if you don't want to sell your ships for cheap... don't, but don't come forum flaming cause nobody's buying them. Well, its is quite possible to appreciate a market that works on supply and demand, and debate the people that are perhaps influenced (not not at all) by other factors in their price setting. And like cheap ships too. Its not a matter of picking sides. Its a matter of debating the workings of the market. And if you see someone building ships and selling them for less than the value of the building blocks - then that is worth a debate. And a valid tactic to bring theirs and others attention to this. By whining or flaming or whatever you want to label it. And to take your own argument: We all like spending less money. But if forced to sell ships under building cost, you are actually spending more money. Bringing you in agreement with the original poster. Although he might be overstating the mins price of a freighter a bit. Please resize your signature so that it is within the forum rule size limits - Jacques



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