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BurnHard	Posted - 2005.10.26 18:55:00 - [1] Can someone please explain to me what this is all about please? I'm trying to understand it. Supply and demand? Can't be, there are plenty of them around. Monopoly? Surely not. I thought CCP would seed more BPO's to stop this kind of thing happening. I fly mainly Amarr ships and have trained up accordingly, so I find this kind of thing totally unbalanced and F'ING ANNOYING. But why is it even the case? What is it about this one module? Why hasn't it happened to say, Mega Pulse II, or Heatsink II or Sensor Booster II or Power Diagnostic II? And obviously, when is it going to be fixed? EVEN THE USA, THE WORLDS MOST HARDCORE CAPITALIST COUNTRY, HAS A MONOPOLIES AND MERGERS COMMISSION (burp).
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.10.26 18:57:00 - [2] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 26/10/2005 18:58:14 A few things. 1) There are 8 BPOs, each of which makes 32 a day. That means 176 per day. Thats not a lot. 2) If it was very cheap, they would completely replace CPR1s on setups. There is not enough supply to do this. Almost all T2 items do not increase in demand as the price falls. Nobody cares about the difference between 1m and 500k for most items, and a LAR2 will sell as well at 10m as 5m. So, price goes into freefall. However, CPR2s increase in demand as the price goes down. Thus, the price has stabilized at a point at which the supply can be sold, and there's enough buyers. You can get them as low as 13m if you're lucky. Oh, and the fact that there's a cartel doesn't make things much better. - Proud member of the [23]. Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2005.10.26 19:08:00 - [3] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 26/10/2005 19:08:29 Originally by: Dark Shikari Almost all T2 items do not increase in demand as the price falls. Nobody cares about the difference between 1m and 500k for most items, and a LAR2 will sell as well at 10m as 5m. So, price goes into freefall. However, CPR2s increase in demand as the price goes down. Thus, the price has stabilized at a point at which the supply can be sold, and there's enough buyers. You can get them as low as 13m if you're lucky. Oh, and the fact that there's a cartel doesn't make things much better. That explanation is no fun, next time include: 1. pretty supply/demand curves 2. discussion of equilibrium price 3. discussion of the effects of monopoly/cartels (tangent on monopsony for moon minerals market too!) 4. elasticity of suppy/demand 5. binding price ceilings (aka, why you have to wait 180 days for an Ishtar from NAGA) Actually come to think of it, that was my micro midterm... nevermind...
WolfGang H	Posted - 2005.10.26 19:18:00 - [4] Edited by: WolfGang H on 26/10/2005 19:21:02 Originally by: BurnHard Can someone please explain to me what this is all about please? I'm trying to understand it. Supply and demand? Can't be, there are plenty of them around. Monopoly? Surely not. I thought CCP would seed more BPO's to stop this kind of thing happening. I fly mainly Amarr ships and have trained up accordingly, so I find this kind of thing totally unbalanced and F'ING ANNOYING. But why is it even the case? What is it about this one module? Why hasn't it happened to say, Mega Pulse II, or Heatsink II or Sensor Booster II or Power Diagnostic II? And obviously, when is it going to be fixed? EVEN THE USA, THE WORLDS MOST HARDCORE CAPITALIST COUNTRY, HAS A MONOPOLIES AND MERGERS COMMISSION (burp). Yep. It sucks. It needs to be fixed. Some of the BPO holders have made 100's of BILLIONS of isk off these simple modules. Cost like 400,000isk -if that- to make...and sell for 15m. Pure thievery. --- Have what it takes to join the defenders of Basgerin?
Ortu Konsinni	Posted - 2005.10.26 19:19:00 - [5] Originally by: Hllaxiu Edited by: Hllaxiu on 26/10/2005 19:08:29 Originally by: Dark Shikari Almost all T2 items do not increase in demand as the price falls. Nobody cares about the difference between 1m and 500k for most items, and a LAR2 will sell as well at 10m as 5m. So, price goes into freefall. However, CPR2s increase in demand as the price goes down. Thus, the price has stabilized at a point at which the supply can be sold, and there's enough buyers. You can get them as low as 13m if you're lucky. Oh, and the fact that there's a cartel doesn't make things much better. That explanation is no fun, next time include: 1. pretty supply/demand curves 2. discussion of equilibrium price 3. discussion of the effects of monopoly/cartels (tangent on monopsony for moon minerals market too!) 4. elasticity of suppy/demand 5. binding price ceilings (aka, why you have to wait 180 days for an Ishtar from NAGA) Actually come to think of it, that was my micro midterm... nevermind... Don't forget about the Golden Ratio. --- Ortu Konsinni Diplomatic delegate French Force Alliance -- l'alliance des francophones Web site : http://destabiliser.com/ffa/
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2005.10.26 19:20:00 - [6] Originally by: Ortu Konsinni Don't forget about the Golden Ratio. Somebody say my name? The GoldenRatio > All.
Severian Wolf	Posted - 2005.10.26 19:23:00 - [7] They're going for 22mil and up in Verge Vender. :(
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.26 19:27:00 - [8] Well you cant blame them... those that have tried to sell at a reasonable price quickly get their whole stock bought out and resold. Either by the T2 cartel/ some money grubbing bastards.
Pestillence	Posted - 2005.10.26 19:55:00 - [9] Originally by: WolfGang H Edited by: WolfGang H on 26/10/2005 19:21:02 Originally by: BurnHard Can someone please explain to me what this is all about please? I'm trying to understand it. Supply and demand? Can't be, there are plenty of them around. Monopoly? Surely not. I thought CCP would seed more BPO's to stop this kind of thing happening. I fly mainly Amarr ships and have trained up accordingly, so I find this kind of thing totally unbalanced and F'ING ANNOYING. But why is it even the case? What is it about this one module? Why hasn't it happened to say, Mega Pulse II, or Heatsink II or Sensor Booster II or Power Diagnostic II? And obviously, when is it going to be fixed? EVEN THE USA, THE WORLDS MOST HARDCORE CAPITALIST COUNTRY, HAS A MONOPOLIES AND MERGERS COMMISSION (burp). Yep. It sucks. It needs to be fixed. Some of the BPO holders have made 100's of BILLIONS of isk off these simple modules. Cost like 400,000isk -if that- to make...and sell for 15m. Pure thievery. Or good business... Other t2 bpo holders could have done it but they just undercut each other to make a sale.
OVERCOPES 1	Posted - 2005.10.26 20:00:00 - [10] Edited by: OVERCOPES 1 on 26/10/2005 20:00:39 At the end of the day,it was a poorly laid out plan by CCP,but teh players who were fortunate to get teh BPO did what me,you and teh rest of eve would of done. But take pause for a moment and wonder why the cap power relay BPO II has not been released ,maybe CCP realize their blunder,unlikely but hey. T2 shuttles have been released, they're called Ares and Raptor.-Vathar.
Hot Karl	Posted - 2005.10.26 20:01:00 - [11] you think this is bad wait until the first cargo expander ii bpo shows up
Ma'Bor Jetrel	Posted - 2005.10.26 20:02:00 - [12] things like this happen all over the world. yeh it sucks but thers not a lot you can do about it. I persoanly will only use what i think is good for the money i have and the prpose its needed. if i remmeber rightly the t2 cap rechargers add 20%. the one i use i tihnk are 17% and are much cheaper. for the money i have its a much better option. its the same price for everyone in eve dont forget. the only people who get them cheaper are those that make them. maybe t2 bpos should just jump to a random account after 30 days. They are given out in a lottery after all. so just make them go to a random but active account every 30 days. If someone gets one and doesnt have the skills to abuse it, then they can sell it to someone who is for mucho iskies.
BurnHard	Posted - 2005.10.26 20:04:00 - [13] Originally by: Pestillence Or good business... Other t2 bpo holders could have done it but they just undercut each other to make a sale. That would not be a market, it would be a cartel membership of which relied purely on a random chance of winning the lottery. As with so many things in this game, it is also something that is totally borked and gobsmackingly unjust.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2005.10.26 20:04:00 - [14] Uh actually theres about 20 of each bpo. This would never have happened if a few people hadn't bought them all up when most people were using cap relays and shield tanks on the ships we now armor tank with. They had the foresight to think that maybe 300mil for a bpo is a good deal. It sucks, but the price would never be so high if there weren't people willing to pay it. Almost every agent missioning apoc setup out there uses 4 of them. You know why Ishtars are now 120mil like Deimoses and not the 65mil they used to be? One person (named Harlequin Shadowdancer, I think) bought up all the supply, every single day (at 65mil) and put them up for a bigger price. Took some capital and risk but after a few days all the producers shifted and started selling theirs at the same price. People had no choice at that point but to adapt. I'm just lucky I had a few lying around before it happened. Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning.
Darkenral	Posted - 2005.10.26 20:10:00 - [15] Edited by: Darkenral on 26/10/2005 20:12:35 / agree T2 monopolies FTL ;/ Then again that is mostly due to CCP's making the build times / copying times excessive. T2 Builders will charge as much as they can, as would anyone else on this thread given the chance. Lousy Implementation. Most MMORPG's have some of these quirks that IRK the playerbase. Wonder why they usually never get addressed and NEW content is released instead. I mean really how hard would it be to throw another X# of BPO's into the game, every so often as a counter to monopoly and to increase overall production. Then again perhaps this is another "working as intended ISK sink" Dark
OVERCOPES 1	Posted - 2005.10.26 20:11:00 - [16] Originally by: Ma'Bor Jetrel things like this happen all over the world. yeh it sucks but thers not a lot you can do about it. I persoanly will only use what i think is good for the money i have and the prpose its needed. if i remmeber rightly the t2 cap rechargers add 20%. the one i use i tihnk are 17% and are much cheaper. for the money i have its a much better option. its the same price for everyone in eve dont forget. the only people who get them cheaper are those that make them. maybe t2 bpos should just jump to a random account after 30 days. They are given out in a lottery after all. so just make them go to a random but active account every 30 days. If someone gets one and doesnt have the skills to abuse it, then they can sell it to someone who is for mucho iskies. Thats one of the most retarded things ive seen posted in all my time in eve. I personally dont do RnD agents on of account of.. 1. cant be bothered 2. i like shooty stuff and running away in my pod. 3. i have the attention span of a goldfish. So for CCP to drop a TECH II BPO in my hanger for doing nothing would (on a personal absoulate rock) but on game level suck horse's chestnuts. T2 shuttles have been released, they're called Ares and Raptor.-Vathar.
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.26 20:18:00 - [17] throwing more BPOs wouldnt be the solution... the CPR2s will still continue to be sold at that price as the demand far outstrips the supply. The current cartel probably has enough isk to buy out the next 5-6 years worth of CPR2s and resell them at the current price without even breaking a sweat. Not to mention most of them also hold huge stashes of t2 bpos which fuel their isk making even more. Its funny how industrialists complain about the effects of physical pvp, when economical pvp is hurting them far more. When the current t2 cartels have far more dominance over the world and have a greater control than anyone with a OMGWTFBBQER ship out there.
Kfao Leo	Posted - 2005.10.26 20:24:00 - [18] Originally by: SengH [...] The current cartel probably has enough isk to buy out the next 5-6 years worth of CPR2s and resell them at the current price without even breaking a sweat. Not to mention most of them also hold huge stashes of t2 bpos which fuel their isk making even more. Its funny how industrialists complain about the effects of physical pvp, when economical pvp is hurting them far more. When the current t2 cartels have far more dominance over the world and have a greater control than anyone with a OMGWTFBBQER ship out there.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2005.10.26 20:28:00 - [19] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 26/10/2005 20:34:02 They're 18-26mil in the region I'm in... BPOs need a shelflife, PERIOD. They should simply crumble away after awhile. It might sound lame, but that's why you make yourself alot of copies while yo have it... oh wait making copies is horribly ineffective if you read the whines, so nm. Limited BPOs (tech2), should decay after awhile, simple as that. Otherwise you get one lucky bastard who is set forever. God I can't imagine the insane cash people will be making off of t2 ammo bpos. Screw cargo expanders, the t2 AMMO is going to make bill Gates look like he's on welfare.
Malken	Posted - 2005.10.26 20:40:00 - [20] Originally by: WolfGang H Yep. It sucks. It needs to be fixed. Some of the BPO holders have made 100's of BILLIONS of isk off these simple modules. Cost like 400,000isk -if that- to make...and sell for 15m. Pure thievery. coughHAC'scough 18-20mill buildcost and ppl think that cap recharger 2's are thievery?
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.26 20:50:00 - [21] hacs dont make that much money because of the build time. CPR2s your pushing out in volume. At the very least for the proposed t2 auctions, the current cartel can make it unprofitable for whoever wins it if they dont manage to snatch it up.
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.26 20:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Kfao Leo Edited by: Kfao Leo on 26/10/2005 20:29:55 Edited by: Kfao Leo on 26/10/2005 20:27:33 Originally by: SengH [...] The current cartel probably has enough isk to buy out the next 5-6 years worth of CPR2s and resell them at the current price without even breaking a sweat. Not to mention most of them also hold huge stashes of t2 bpos which fuel their isk making even more. Its funny how industrialists complain about the effects of physical pvp, when economical pvp is hurting them far more. When the current t2 cartels have far more dominance over the world and have a greater control than anyone with a OMGWTFBBQER ship out there. I don't wanna destroy your percious prejudices (I know we all like neat prejudices about evil producers) but could share your opinion which "T2 cartels" or "CPR 2" owners you are talking about? Because from my experience only one corp that ones a CPR BPO actually has a decent (but not large) amount of other T¦ BPOs. PS: of course with the supply and demand thing you are absolutly right (just look at the numbers Oveur once published. There are others out there... the price fixing is happening with other t2 modules too. You just dont hear the outrage about it as the cartel is already in effect with the newer modules ie. T2 launchers, so consumers are used to the starting price and are paying for it because thats what the price is.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2005.10.26 20:56:00 - [23] Originally by: Malken Originally by: WolfGang H Yep. It sucks. It needs to be fixed. Some of the BPO holders have made 100's of BILLIONS of isk off these simple modules. Cost like 400,000isk -if that- to make...and sell for 15m. Pure thievery. coughHAC'scough 18-20mill buildcost and ppl think that cap recharger 2's are thievery? ----- Cost --- Sell --- Profit --- Markup ----- HAC 20m 100m 80m 80% CR2 0.4m 15m 14.6m 97% Now we factor in build-time ---- Days --- Per Day -- Profit Per Day HAC 1.5 0.66 52.8 CR2 0.03125 32 467.2 That is assuming they are being made and sold at max capacity. The reason (some) HACs have gone up in price is because the demand is higher than the supply by a long way (look at Naga's waiting times for a Zealot and Deimos). Capcharger IIs on the other hand are price fixed by a few individuals who own all the BPOs. Ovuer has said before that he doesn't want to drop loads more T2 BPOs as he has already given out far too much free money with the existing ones (I think it was in the latest devchat or a recent blog). What we need is either a) full market availability like T1 bpos or b) an overhauled research agent system where BPOs are offered at fixed loyalty point values, like other agent offers, or c) copy times to be lower than build times, so people who chance upon a T2 bpo don't sell it as they don't have the resources to build them and can sell copies instead. Originally by: Chowdown We camp a lot
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.10.26 21:02:00 - [24] Originally by: Sarmaul Ovuer has said before that he doesn't want to drop loads more T2 BPOs as he has already given out far too much free money with the existing ones (I think it was in the latest devchat or a recent blog). It isn't "free money." As players are paying in full for the items, the money is anything but free. NPC bounties and NPC trade profits are free money. Quote: What we need is either a) full market availability like T1 bpos Never going to happen. Quote: or b) an overhauled research agent system where BPOs are offered at fixed loyalty point values, like other agent offers Never going to happen. Quote: c) copy times to be lower than build times, so people who chance upon a T2 bpo don't sell it as they don't have the resources to build them and can sell copies instead. Duh--copy your BPO, then put it in the factory - Proud member of the [23]. Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
Deovina	Posted - 2005.10.26 21:04:00 - [25] Originally by: SengH Originally by: Kfao Leo Edited by: Kfao Leo on 26/10/2005 20:29:55 Edited by: Kfao Leo on 26/10/2005 20:27:33 Originally by: SengH [...] The current cartel probably has enough isk to buy out the next 5-6 years worth of CPR2s and resell them at the current price without even breaking a sweat. Not to mention most of them also hold huge stashes of t2 bpos which fuel their isk making even more. Its funny how industrialists complain about the effects of physical pvp, when economical pvp is hurting them far more. When the current t2 cartels have far more dominance over the world and have a greater control than anyone with a OMGWTFBBQER ship out there. I don't wanna destroy your percious prejudices (I know we all like neat prejudices about evil producers) but could share your opinion which "T2 cartels" or "CPR 2" owners you are talking about? Because from my experience only one corp that ones a CPR BPO actually has a decent (but not large) amount of other T¦ BPOs. PS: of course with the supply and demand thing you are absolutly right (just look at the numbers Oveur once published. There are others out there... the price fixing is happening with other t2 modules too. You just dont hear the outrage about it as the cartel is already in effect with the newer modules ie. T2 launchers, so consumers are used to the starting price and are paying for it because thats what the price is. T2 launcher BPOs are not fully seeded yet. So the final price isn't decided yet (the price will probably in line with the other T2 weapons). You are implying that the big T2 producers own CPR2 BPO and bought the BPOs with that money but thats simply not the case.
Sykosys	Posted - 2005.10.26 21:04:00 - [26] Seems to me like whoever got those BPO's are doing a good job _______________________ "She'll fly apart sir," "FLY HER APART THEN!!!"
Wanoah	Posted - 2005.10.26 21:08:00 - [27] I refuse to buy Cap Recharger IIs on principle. I can afford them, I'd like to use them, but I will not be ripped off to that extent. don't like being ripped off? Vote with your feet. This is what can happen in a completely free market. It's why there still exists a need for a degree of manipulation and regulation by nation states on behalf of the people. Playing Eve is a warning to us all: unrestrained capitalism, unbound by any kind of ethical or social consideration, is just as bad as other discredited political systems. See, games are educational! We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at stars. (Sig best viewed with Firefox)
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.10.26 21:09:00 - [28] The vast majority of T2 items do start at high prices. You cannot claim someone is "price fixing" only a month after something has come out. For example, BCS2 will not cost more than 5 million within 3 months. CR2s only cost so much because the demand for good cap rechargers (primarily for NPCing) is so incredibly high. - Proud member of the [23]. Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.10.26 21:10:00 - [29] Originally by: Wanoah I refuse to buy Cap Recharger IIs on principle. I can afford them, I'd like to use them, but I will not be ripped off to that extent. don't like being ripped off? Vote with your feet. This is what can happen in a completely free market. It's why there still exists a need for a degree of manipulation and regulation by nation states on behalf of the people. Playing Eve is a warning to us all: unrestrained capitalism, unbound by any kind of ethical or social consideration, is just as bad as other discredited political systems. See, games are educational! Let us play a game. In this game, I own a cap II BPO. I decide to be nice. I go and sell 500 cap IIs for 5 million each. 1 minute later, my wallet blinks. They're all bought. 2 minutes later, I see a sell order for 500 cap IIs. At 13 million each. It is in no way the fault of the producers. - Proud member of the [23]. Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2005.10.26 21:16:00 - [30] Originally by: Wanoah I refuse to buy Cap Recharger IIs on principle. I can afford them, I'd like to use them, but I will not be ripped off to that extent. don't like being ripped off? Vote with your feet. This is what can happen in a completely free market. It's why there still exists a need for a degree of manipulation and regulation by nation states on behalf of the people. Playing Eve is a warning to us all: unrestrained capitalism, unbound by any kind of ethical or social consideration, is just as bad as other discredited political systems. See, games are educational! In general governments don't care much about people being ripped off on luxuary goods.

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