I am getting the firewall/virus icons not showing up. The node looks black like nothing is there but if I click it again my stats are going down and it shows me fighting something. I've seen this about 4 times so far between relic and data sites.

http://imgur.com/jTDLbZf

That is a picture of one of my invisible nodes I just hit. I currently have the hacking window still open. I stopped to post this. I killed/conquered/solved this one butt he node is not illuminated.

I do like the new hacking mechanics in general, they just need some tweaking. Also it would be nice to have a (more detailed) devblog with some details about the new mods, changed rigs (did their calibration change?), change hardwirings and other stuff that is being changed in relation to these sites.

Also, why not make players able to tractor the loot cans? this gives players a good reason to bring a noctis alt for instance or fit some tractor beams on their ships. The small tractor beam that is being used now doesn't make sense (we don't see it anywhere else and it's not on the ships fit)

NPCs still spawning after a failed hack. I thought the penalty was going to be more cans ejected?

The other points you have are IMHO either insignificant, incorrect or people being adverse to change. Don't take all of the moaning to heart.

If you're after stuff related to the new sites and not just loot spew...

• There is no indication of which "cans" within the site you've already hacked. This is a step backward given we already have this functionality on TQ.

• The rats that spawn in low-sec upon a failed attempt do not leave a wreck when you kill them. Is this just to upset people a bit more on top of their failed hacking attempt? If so, nice troll :-) If not, it's a bug.

I envisage the mini-game becoming tedious fairly quickly. But then a games company such as CCP probably already know that simple, luck based, non-strategic, low reaction, low skill, input heavy click fest mini games don't really hold long appeal to people who play in-depth, strategic and complex games like EvE.

So you will deign to listen to the feedback, even though you agree it is just insignificant, incorrect, or people adverse to change.... awesome.

The problem with invisible defensive nodes still seems to occur - I ran into one in the Temple Site.

Are you going to put a ships on grid element into calculation for the hacking and cans speed and direction.

Could we get a practise hacking panel in the Captain's Quarters, no rewards, just maybe flicker the light or a message from station maintenance to 'stop doing that'. I'd like playing it as a game, like that strategy game that was shown for Incarna. (How do you add big puppy dog eyes to a forum post?)

1) If the speed is much slower now is it actually possible to get 100% of the ejected loot?
2) If the cans are now named will they show on the overview or will you have to spend time mousing over each can to find out whats in it before you click it?

Maybe we need "sticky mice". That is the pointer starts following things I set it on. Sort of like sticky aiming in Dust.

You missed the:

-Uberstacked objects causing MASSIVE graphics overheating issues among other things (frame rate drops ect)

The cans turn green when they are clickable and in range. They turn yellow when the item is "busy". No color when out of range. When your hack is successful and the cans spew, take a moment to hover over them and decide which ones you want first over others (eg. avoiding scrap). They move much slower now and there is also an audio queue after you loot a can.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think the coherence bonuses from rigs are not working.

Should we be bug reporting the sites that still spawn rats on failed hacks, or are you guys just working down a list to remove them?

The hacking minigame UI seems to have issues with UI scaling.

I have my UI scaling set to 90% and the minigame UI overflows out of the window.

Screen: http://i.imgur.com/oPHegZ9.png

I find this post disappointing given that players have been vocalising their problems with this system in depth for over 40 pages across two threads for nearly a month at this point.

In summary:

1. The loot pinata system is not fun. This is the most important and most essential issue with the mechanic. It's not fun. It's not enjoyable. After having expended the effort to play the minigame (which is fun but somewhat limited), having the loot that we worked for scatter everywhere and vanish after far too short a time feels... disappointing. It doesn't feel rewarding, it doesn't feel like you've accomplished something. It is irritating to chase after the cans, it's irritating to have to click on all of them individually, it's irritating to have them disappear, it's irritating to have little to no idea what you're picking up until you have it. The entire system is irritating, and irritating isn't fun. You've made a mechanic in your game that does not serve the player's enjoyment of it, and this is a bad thing that game developers should not do, because one of the core principles of good video game design is that each and every element of a game should further the player's engagement with and enjoyment of it.

2. The loot pinata system feels arbitrary. The fact that we have a magical tractor beam that can only move these specific types of cans and nothing else feels incongrous. The fact that you can't add the cans to overview and that they don't "stack" when you mouse over multiple items at a time feels incongrous. The fact that I'm apparently a masterful enough hacker to get past super-powerful Guristas mainframe security but not skilled enough to simply stop it from spewing everything everywhere feels incongrous. The fact that there's very little way to tell what's in the cans you're trying to pick up makes the system feel random and deeply unpredictable, like I'm playing Magic: The Gathering with someone else's deck. Please don't think that removing the arbitrary nature will actually make the spew itself fun, but it most certainly does make a bad idea worse.

3. The loot pinata system does not encourage teamwork, but will encourage theft. There is literally nothing else a fleet member can do while someone's hacking other than keep watch on D-scan and shoot any rats that appear (which, if the hacker is good, will not happen). The only useful thing a fleet member can do is pick up the cans after the hack is finished, which means that in terms of exploration you're only able to bring fleet members along for help with the least interesting parts of the experience. However, a random thief can sit cloaked off the object someone's hacking and then immediately start scooping spew cans with no penalty - no aggression timer, nothing. I'm not in any way against thievery, but when you make it easier (or at the very least no more difficult) for the thieves than the other members of a team, it doesn't send the right message.

4. The loot pinata system disrupts the flow of the exploration profession. You have to spend a fair amount of time sitting relatively immobile in space doing the minigame. This isn't a problem. The hacking minigame is fun. But then you have to spend another minute or two randomly flailing around trying to get the cans before moving onto the next minigame. This seriously breaks the flow of the experience. This might seem a weak point in comparison to the other three but it's yet another irritation.

Bayesian, most of the things you're addressing in your post are symptoms of the loot pinata mechanic. The problem is the mechanic itself.

The single most important thing then - beyond anything else - is contrast. If you can, make them react to their background in some way so they're always clearly distinguished. That'd help everyone.

After that, size is important. Trying to have them roughly the size of things on the overview would help a lot.

Not sure if this should be mentioned here, but it does relate to hacking so..

The Implant - Poteque 'Prospector' Environmental Analysis EY-1005 - is still set to -5% cycle time, for salvaging (which is ok) and hacking and archeology modules (for both of which cycle time is now pointless.)

The Implant - Poteque 'Prospector' Hacking HC-905 - Is adjusted for the update, with a +5 Coherence. On this one I just want to give my opinion, +5 coherence is quite pointless considering most strengths from the minigame are rounded to the x0 (20,30,40,etc) - So my feedback would be either set it to +10 coherence or +5 strength (which would be relevant considering sometimes you halve the firewall/etc coherence to half, sometimes a 05 does count in strength)

Probably many ppl pointed this out ahead of me but just to make sure it is said.

Cheers!

The single most important thing then - beyond anything else - is contrast. If you can, make them react to their background in some way so they're always clearly distinguished. That'd help everyone.

After that, size is important. Trying to have them roughly the size of things on the overview would help a lot.

My concern exactly. Even if this is considered to be a 'fun' mechanic (by the developers) the average player running the site won't feel like it because they would have missed out on something.

Very similar to the 'JC Penny Effect' recently covered in Extra Creditz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmCn-csZStA

Checking in as (possibly) the only pilot on Singularity who does not feel the way described in the two posts above me.

I will admit that its likely something that I will simply get used to and not think or care about as much; but my concern is more than a general reception of the idea is that you do 100% of the work and get 80% of the reward; it doesn't take a genius to find that is a bad deal..

It is bad because a large majority of your playerbase think it is bad. Not only the whiners and cynical ones. Check Youtube.

It is bad because it is simply not fun to do!

It is bad because it gravely diminishes the value and appreciation of the wonderful work that has been done to make the sites more beautiful and to the hacking game which has potential.

It is bad because it feels like losing loot after playing having to play two minigames to access that loot! Giving more info on the cans will, in my opinion, increase the rage when a 'blueprint can' vanishes before your eyes.

It is bad because it does not invite more team play.

It is bad because it does not make sense!

It is bad because it goes against the very nature of EVE, which is not a clicking game and where loot does not vanish after a few seconds.

One way you could do this is to have the spread pattern always eject towards the hackers ship. This would at the very least allow the hacker to account for LCO's in the site by positioning themselves accordingly.

Adding things to the overview, this is really an option of last resort that I think fixes things which are usability defects. It's the "easy way out" as it's the workaround in EVE to dealing with the problems that exist interacting with things in the scene.

I've read these threads, read countless reviews and watched many youtube trials, and I've yet to find anyone that actually likes the loot spew (ofc, maybe you can find just a few somewhere). No one, so far as I've seen, likes twitch games, needless clicking, randomness, etc. Yes, you've made improvements in the right direction, but it seems like the overwhelming consensus here is the best direction is to remove the loot spew, focus on the hacking game to make it more strategy-based, and find another way to make it optionally co-op.

That said, I'm very positive about the new exploration sites. Why? Because when I watch videos of people running them, they have limited time to check dscan, pay attention to local, and they spend a long time in space, etc.

Confirmation bias FTW.

This. Bayes, you keep asking for people to 'splain it to you like you're five years old, as if it's some big mystery while people find the loot spew mechaninc annoying and stupid. Andreus said all that needs to be said about it in his earlier post. Others have repeated his same points in different words. It's all been said, and people have been saying it all since this mechanic was first proposed, over and over and over.

You obviously put a lot of work into implementing this, and it sucks when people don't say nice things about something you worked hard on. But you can't say you weren't warned that people would hate it. Obviously we're now the point where you're personally attached to the mechanic, so there is not really any point in complaining about it anymore, or trying to explain to you why it sucks. You'll just keep figuring out ways to not get why people dislike it, because you think it's cool, and you don't want to think about scrapping or majorly reworking something you worked hard on and thought people would love.

Thanks for the reply Really appreciated.

What I mean that it doesn't make sense is that if someone hacks into a computer or mainframe or whatever, the result of a succesfull hack is access to that computer or mainframe. Not triggering some exploding mechanic. That sounds more like triggering a defensive system to protect the content.

I'm not so thrilled having to tag along a cargoscanner in my scanning ship to guarantee my exploration income. The allocation of mid slots on the scanning ships is already quite taxing with the new scanning mods, the data and relic analyser and perhaps a propulsion mod. Basicly, Anathema and Cheetah are at a distinct disadvantage because of that.

People adapt! They have always done so and will do so again. But that does not mean they like the new mechanic. I'm afraid a lot will adapt by abandoning exploration, which is not what an exploration expansion should achieve.

There will become a whole new dynamic around the new sites. That's a good thing. Pirates will love those undefended scanning ships in their territory. Brave explorers could steal valuables from null sec alliances like Indiana Jones beating the ***** to an artifact. But the inpact on group play will be limited, I fear, and that was the whole point of this loot mechanic.
There are more engaging, rewarding or thrilling ways to play with a group.

I find it not fun because it feels unrewarding. It also becomes too much of a hassle to (sometimes) get the loot I want. I'm not enjoying myself chasing cans. The more I do it, the more I dislike it. I'm thrilled at succesfully hacking a difficult container but I immediately sigh at the sight of those containers flying of. I think that is a pity. It replaces my sense of enjoyment at finally getting to the loot by a sense of dreariness as I have to do another chore.

I tried submitting this bug through the in-game interface. Got an error:

Data Site named "Digital Compund" is actually a combat site even though it shows as a Data Site in the scan window.

I am color blind. Do not use colors like yellow and green together as different state. blue and either yellow/green is better.
Thanks

The first time I tried hacking (in the profession missions) I was so close to the can that I missed the "spew" and wondered how I was to get the loot to finish the mission! The fact that the mission wording hasn't been changed to take account of the new mechanic didn't help either. Fortunately for me I was aware of the new mini-game because I read the forums but I wonder what new players make of it when there are no clues/hints of what to do.