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Idio T
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Posted - 2005.10.27 10:23:00 -
[1]
Could somebody explain how a AB would work in space (if that space were a true vacume).
Please be as detailed and confusing as you like, so long as a normal joe likemyself can walk away understanding what was described.
Thank you !
Frigate about it! |
Mind
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Posted - 2005.10.27 10:35:00 -
[2]
they work (i guess) much like the IRL ones, that is. Adding more fuel to the mix through a 2nd injector, thuss improving temperature and thuss the expansion of gasses (and therefore increasing the gasses speed out of the nossle).
Otoh, this game aint realy true, ships dont need to keep the engine burning like they do in EVE due to the fact that friction is close to zero (relatively speaking).
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Dak Hakin
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Posted - 2005.10.27 10:43:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
(from Howstuffworks.com) The idea behind an afterburner is to inject fuel directly into the exhaust stream and burn it using this remaining oxygen. This heats and expands the exhaust gases further, and can increase the thrust of a jet engine by 50% or more.
The big advantage of an afterburner is that you can significantly increase the thrust of the engine without adding much weight or complexity to the engine. An afterburner is nothing but a set of fuel injectors, a tube and flame holder that the fuel burns in, and an adjustable nozzle. A jet engine with an afterburner needs an adjustable nozzle so that it can work both with the afterburners on and off.
As far as game physics go though, I can only guess it is simply an additional thruster of some sort... There is no oxygen in the exhaust of the ships to burn, so an afterburner by definition cannot work as we know.
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I lost my parrot
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.10.27 10:43:00 -
[4]
Newton's third law. You push back, you go forwards.
But, in most space games (including EVE), physics is calculated as if space were filled with water. This imposes a maximum speed limit.
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Proud member of the [23].
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Idio T
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Posted - 2005.10.27 10:54:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Newton's third law. You push back, you go forwards.
This is what I dont understand and am seeing if anybody is able to answer it.
"You push back": push back on what ? And wouldnt you actually go backwards ?
Would you use the force of thrust to push against yourself to move , or is it the dispersion of preasure from inside the "thruster" that is high to a lower preasure in space that generates the movement ?
Frigate about it! |
Viv Savage
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Posted - 2005.10.27 10:56:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Newton's third law. You push back, you go forwards.
I'd like a better explanation. If I push out with my arms in the air, I don't move. Even if you say that I have some small interaction with the air molecules... we're talking about a vacuum. an explanation of Newton's third law in a vacuum using fuel and displacement is kinda what I'm looking for.
I'd love to have a general physics explanation without the game even really getting involved because we know that the game mechanics are different than actual occurences. I never took physics and therefore don't understand yet how motion occurs merely by pushing back on nothing.
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2005.10.27 10:58:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dak Hakin
There is no oxygen in the exhaust of the ships to burn, so an afterburner by definition cannot work as we know.
Unless the ship carries a supply of liquid oxygen to inject into the exhaust.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2005.10.27 11:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Viv Savage
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Newton's third law. You push back, you go forwards.
I'd like a better explanation. If I push out with my arms in the air, I don't move. Even if you say that I have some small interaction with the air molecules... we're talking about a vacuum. an explanation of Newton's third law in a vacuum using fuel and displacement is kinda what I'm looking for.
I'd love to have a general physics explanation without the game even really getting involved because we know that the game mechanics are different than actual occurences. I never took physics and therefore don't understand yet how motion occurs merely by pushing back on nothing.
The ship isn't pushing back on nothing.
The expanding exhaust products are pushing back on the ship, thus pushing it forwards. Meanwhile, the ship is pushing the other way, propelling the exhaust products backwards.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Sevarus James
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Posted - 2005.10.27 11:03:00 -
[9]
Its actually the intra-verted Phased Tra-drool-e-um vectored through the quadzi-lateral bi-cumbant self stabilization Ventroofilcators.
Comeon people...sheesh. You want true newtonian physics in a game, go play Independence War.
Eve's rules are self contained in its universe, and so we're in a vacuum full o' water. Does it work for our 'universe'? I'd say yes.
To try and compare the necessities of the game engine to real life means you need more things to do, or shoot.
-nothing hostile here, just after 2+ years of seeing these occasional physics professor wanna-be's....I hadta reply.
"No power in the 'verse can stop us now!" |
lythos miralbar
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Posted - 2005.10.27 11:04:00 -
[10]
basic physics 101 :-
Its simple.. the ship isnt "pushing" on anything. if you exert a force in one direction an equal force is exerted in the other.
So immagine the ship has a net force of nothing without the engines running. When you fire up the engines your ship starts to "push" hot gasses out the exhaust "pushing" them out the back of the ship.
This creates an equal force on the ship "pushing" the ship forwards.
The gasses arent actualy pushing on anything themselves.
This does mean though that the ship can never go faster than the speed the exhaust gasses are "pushed" out of the engine nozzles. which for interstellar travel would suck big time even if you had an unlimited source of fuel.
An afterburner in eve would just increase the "force" of the gasses coming out the back of the ship, thus increasing forward motion.
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Idio T
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Posted - 2005.10.27 11:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: lythos miralbar
basic physics 101 :-
Its simple.. the ship isnt "pushing" on anything. if you exert a force in one direction an equal force is exerted in the other.
So immagine the ship has a net force of nothing without the engines running. When you fire up the engines your ship starts to "push" hot gasses out the exhaust "pushing" them out the back of the ship.
This creates an equal force on the ship "pushing" the ship forwards.
The gasses arent actualy pushing on anything themselves.
This does mean though that the ship can never go faster than the speed the exhaust gasses are "pushed" out of the engine nozzles. which for interstellar travel would suck big time even if you had an unlimited source of fuel.
An afterburner in eve would just increase the "force" of the gasses coming out the back of the ship, thus increasing forward motion.
Great answer. Thank you , I know that was exactly what I was looking for. 
Frigate about it! |
Cenn Noma
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Posted - 2005.10.27 11:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: lythos miralbar
This does mean though that the ship can never go faster than the speed the exhaust gasses are "pushed" out of the engine nozzles. which for interstellar travel would suck big time even if you had an unlimited source of fuel.
Not quite true.
the thrust is a force going out the back... you essentally are generating a constant force pushing your ship forward.
now, that basically means you have a constant acceleration.
In vacume there is really no speed limit, until you start getting up to relatavistic speeds where the thrust gets diminishing returns and eventually you cant go any faster (somewhere a bit below the speed of light)
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Deixel
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Posted - 2005.10.27 12:15:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Deixel on 27/10/2005 12:15:03
Originally by: Sevarus James
Its actually the intra-verted Phased Tra-drool-e-um vectored through the quadzi-lateral bi-cumbant self stabilization Ventroofilcators.
Comeon people...sheesh. You want true newtonian physics in a game, go play Independence War.
Eve's rules are self contained in its universe, and so we're in a vacuum full o' water. Does it work for our 'universe'? I'd say yes.
To try and compare the necessities of the game engine to real life means you need more things to do, or shoot.
-nothing hostile here, just after 2+ years of seeing these occasional physics professor wanna-be's....I hadta reply.
Um ... read the thread? He's asking about what happens with true newtonian physics!
The only person to mention true physics in a game is you!
Nothing hostile here, just want to see relevant posts in a thread |
Kerushi
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Posted - 2005.10.27 12:45:00 -
[14]
i-war ftw!
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Hoshi
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Posted - 2005.10.27 12:47:00 -
[15]
As for pushing it doesn't need to be gasses.
Let's say you are in zero-G vacum and hold a hammer in your hand. If you throw the hammer away you will end up moving at the same force in the opposite direction.
Just be careful to make the throw at the center of your gravity or most of some of the force will be applied to rotation :)
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.10.27 13:28:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Viv Savage
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Newton's third law. You push back, you go forwards.
I'd like a better explanation. If I push out with my arms in the air, I don't move.
In theory, you do; but because of the friction between your feet and the ground, which is far greater than any force you can exert by flinging your arms forwards, in practice you won't actually go anywhere.
Classical physics is very, very simple; but applying it to the real world introduces all sorts of complexities, and that's why it took mankind such a long time, and a genius like Newton, to finally get the hang of it. In the real world, things DO stop moving unless you exert a constant force; it's no surprise that Aristotle laid that down as a law of nature, even though it's actually wrong.
Out in space, where there are no such complexities like friction, air resistance, or anything else to worry about (the vacuum is sufficiently near-perfect to disregard any impurities) ... things really ARE simple. You throw a hammer forwards, you'll start floating off backwards, and continue to do so forever unless you hit something, or throw another hammer behind you at the same strength.
As described above ... a rocket spouts out hot gases backwards, the rocket will go forwards. An afterburner will be some method of altering the mix of hot gases, so that they react quicker, get spouted out at higher speeds, and make you go faster.
Celt Corp - members of ISS |
Chai N'Dorr
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Posted - 2005.10.27 14:00:00 -
[17]
Space /= vacuum...
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Short Story: Planetside |
Kurren
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Posted - 2005.10.27 14:49:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Chai N'Dorr
Space /= vacuum...
Vacuum = nothing... no friction, no resistance at all. Any small force will put you in motion. That's why NASA's shuttles are always spouting out air from one part or another. One small burst in one direction can, and likely will, send you off infinitely in the opposite direction... until force of some sort is applied to either stop you, change your direction, or increase your speed.
Afterburners simply produce more force in the opposite direction that you're trying to go.
You have to think of no friction in terms of having lots of friction.
If you stand next to a wall and push towards it, your body goes backwards. Think of space as being a big wall behind your ship, your thrusters are your arms pushing against it, and an afterburner is like having a third arm.
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I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist... |
Kalixa Hihro
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Posted - 2005.10.27 16:54:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Idio T
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Newton's third law. You push back, you go forwards.
This is what I dont understand and am seeing if anybody is able to answer it.
"You push back": push back on what ? And wouldnt you actually go backwards ?
Would you use the force of thrust to push against yourself to move , or is it the dispersion of preasure from inside the "thruster" that is high to a lower preasure in space that generates the movement ?
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Rapidly expanding gas comes out of the nozzle of the thruster at very high speed. It exits in one direction, creating thrust, much like a balloon full of air does when you release it and the balloon end is not sealed. The air or gas is pushed out of the open end.
It takes energy to force all of that out in the direction the thruster is pointed in. This is the action, pushing the gas out through combustion. The reaction is the ship moves in the opposite direction of the ejecting gas. You are basically hurling lots of matter in a direction. The ship moves because to cause the gas to move that quickly creates force in the opposite direction. Since the gas is rapidly expanding, there is a great deal of force.
It's not pushing against anything outside of the ship.
it doesn't have to. A gun is another primary example. When you fire a gun you get "kick" The gun is trying to move in the opposite direction of the bullet. The bullet and gases are not hitting anything, at least not enough to cause that much kick.
It's Newton's third law: law of reciprocal actions. To gain more understanding, look up Isaac Newton in the www.wikipedia.org site.
The bigger question is, why does the game observe the third law, but ignore Newton's first law: law of inertia o/ That is, if an object is in motion, and has neither friction, nor acceleration it maintains a constant speed. Therefore if you are in a frig and get it up to 2700 m/s it should stay at that speed even once you turn off the mwd.
The second law says that as long as you are accelerating you continue to gain speed. There should be no top speed. As long as your booster is engaged you should continue to accelerate, up to the point where your ship is moving as fast as the gas exiting the booster.
Even the space shuttle can move faster than the fastest ships in this game....
Of course, you'd need to flip your ship and it would take just as long to stop as it did to get going.
I think the game mechanics are set up this way to make the ships easier to fly.
thx,
Kal
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Megadon
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Posted - 2005.10.27 17:10:00 -
[20]
CCP got the name wrong because they are not rocket scientists, they are game designers/makers.
The real name of the 'afterburner' is "impulse motor electron injector"
Pretty much everyone who is an astrophysicist knows this.
It injects electrons into plasma chamber increasing the velocity of the gases leaving the impulse engine and thusly increasing the specific impulse of the engine and making more thrust.
How could you pilot a ship and not know this?
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Impericus
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Posted - 2005.10.27 17:29:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Idio T
CCP got the name wrong because they are not rocket scientists, they are game designers/makers.
The real name of the 'afterburner' is "impulse motor electron injector"
Pretty much everyone who is an astrophysicist knows this.
It injects electrons into plasma chamber increasing the velocity of the gases leaving the impulse engine and thusly increasing the specific impulse of the engine and making more thrust.
How could you pilot a ship and not know this?ugh
This is the best answer sofar... If we think of it as ion-thruster its easier 
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Balazs Simon
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Posted - 2005.10.27 18:02:00 -
[22]
And ION "engines" are reality.. for exaple the Deep Space 1 use this technology... (make a search on NASA's page)
The ION-Thrust system was made in the CCCP on the late 60's IIRC, but the first real use in space was the US. D.S.1 lunched on the early 90's.
It's bigest backdraw is that it generates realy small amount of thrust, but it need realy low fuel... (it accelerate Xenon molecules in a magnetic field), so a small pack of Xenon is enough for years of countinious working. So basicly the low thrust on long time can speed up the spaceship on higher speeds than the normal high thrust chemical engines, wich backdraw is the realy high amount of fuel it needs.
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This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation in any way.
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Suze'Rain
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Posted - 2005.10.27 18:05:00 -
[23]
simplest explanation of an AB working in space:
module fitted gives additional fuel/power/electrons/hamsterwheels to pump extra power into the nozzle/jet/venturi.
dead easy.
newton's law's quite simple, a force is exerted and has a equal and opposite reaction.
most people think that it's the jet pushing against the environment around it - that's incorrect- it's the force of the jet pushing against the exhaust itself, and the equal and opposite force from that which generates the thrust. that applies in both space and in aircraft - the actual "push" out the back of a jet engine's not that powerful... though liable to toasty-fry you if you test it out.
the afterburner simply is a mechanism that produces more thrust, and therefore, greater force.
course, in a vaccum, there's no friction so in reality, it would simply increase the rate of accelleration (more thrust for same mass), rather than the maximum speed. after all, in theory, there is no upper limit to the velocity attained in space - it's simply a case of volume of fuel carried.
Presumably eve-world modules have an energy-to-matter converter that creates fuel, hence why it consumes power to operate the AB...
unless of course, you use minmatar ships, which not only are built from Gaffer Tape (and therefore, are propelled by the Force - it has a light side, a dark side and binds the universe together...), but are powered by hamsters spinning wheels attached to generators. There, the afterburner lever simply drops a tasty bit of lettiuce in front of the ravenous rodents, for a little more power.
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