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Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
278
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Posted - 2013.05.31 12:43:00 -
[31] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I keep seeing a lot of comments that are very negative but not much explanation as to why.
I started EvE in 2003 and since then I have spent a lot of money and time on EvE. I started this character as Minnie but I liked Caldari n Gallant ships and invested a lot of skill points into both blasters and missiles. My primary specialisation was in Raven n torpedoes for PvP but one day CCP decided torpedoes should be complete garbage. I now have a lot of skills, tens of millions in a ship and weapons system I haven't used in years and wont be using in the future.
I dont support remaps for mistakes although I really couldn't give a crap about other peoples skill pools but that many skill points wasted due to a radical change like the missile rebalance definitely in my mind would be one good reason to allow remaps.
Since then there have been so many similar nerfs and changes I cant see any reasonable objection that could be made. Which probably explains why there is no explanation for all the objections.
Easy answer.
I have roughly 79 million SP right now. WIth a SP remap, I can climb into a wide variety of ships with completely and totally perfect skills -- all at 5 and up to titan level.
Right now, I'm not even close to that with a wide array of skills still to train to bring up and many that probably won't ever reach 5 that I'll rely upon quite a bit.
This is common - very common. Look at many of the chars in the bazaar with 100+ million SP. They don't have all 5's for a huge number of things they can do and each is uniquely built.
By enabling this, you remove all that uniqueness of the building process. You will find every veteran player running around with completely perfect skill sets for the ship(s) they choose to fly and this is extremely uncommon right now being as few train up their spec skills to 5 for that last 2% bonus.
Net effect: You'll lose a lot of variety and a great deal of balance to how the game operates being as very, very few players ever manage to fly with "perfect, all 5 skills" for the ships they do fly.
This "balance" I speak of means that fleets don't ask you to have all 5's to fly with them - that would change. You'd either have enough SP to remap to all 5's or you wouldn't be allowed along being as those you face *WOULD* be doing that.
So how many new players do you want to leave benched for how long before they can go along with "gangs" and "groups"? That is what you are asking for. |
Ireland VonVicious
Vendetta Syndicate
143
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Posted - 2013.06.01 22:36:00 -
[32] - Quote
I'm going to take this discussion a bit further.
I'm about to hit 100 mil SP.
I thought out my skill training years in advance and I trained to my remap instead of remapping to my training. (( 8 months in a destroyer fyi ))
This made sure I got the most SP per hour for 4 years now.
I have no SP I'd like to move around. Because I did it right in the first place. In order to do this I had to use my first bit of time on eve figuring out how that was done. That toon was 3 months old when I trashed it and went for perfection.
Now some random guy on the forums says: Lets just let everyone have this with no effort.
My response is give me my 3 months of learning the game before building a perfect sp toon back. (( That's right give me 6 mil more sp on this toon if you want to let this crap happen, I already paid for it after all. ))
I'd also like some isk for the 4 years worth of planning and time needed to do it. (( Since you have decided that my time spent is now useless ))
Now my demands may sound crazy and they are, but I'd only be asking for exactly what you are asking for, by getting to move sp around.
In short you sound crazy. You think you should get what people spent years doing for free. Threads like this disgust me. |
SilentStryder
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2013.06.02 05:40:00 -
[33] - Quote
Old Industrial Toon now Hard-Core PVP Skilled, that is why we can't have skill remaps, don't get me wrong I would like the option to shave some miss alocated skill points too nothing level V or anything but... oh yeah and perfectly constructed PVP toons will loose there value in the character bazaar not that I'm a seller, but I imagine the demographic would be very vocal over that. Player: EVE Online, Capsuleer, hunger games enthusiast. |
tictaccarrol
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.06.30 19:37:00 -
[34] - Quote
I say sp should be a choice to be re-maped once a yr like attributes. either remap the attributes or the sp. and once that's done then they have to wait another 365 days. just think about it. if your aloud to trade one character for another acc. holder's character then why can't you choose to re-map your sp once a yr. no plex card cost or 10% loss in skill points because plex cards can be bought at the will of the player and 10% sp loss is a pain in the a** for veteran players. it can benefit people who have put so much effort in certain skills where patches have heavily changed areas where it could affect them. and for people who have had the mis-haps of getting podded without a clone have a one chance to re-map additional skills to be able to be efficient again. I had an accident as such and it took me another week to be able to use an exhumer again because eve somehow lost the record of me having a clone.
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
151
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Posted - 2013.07.01 01:34:00 -
[35] - Quote
tictaccarrol wrote:I say sp should be a choice to be re-maped once a yr like attributes. either remap the attributes or the sp. and once that's done then they have to wait another 365 days. just think about it. if your aloud to trade one character for another acc. holder's character then why can't you choose to re-map your sp once a yr. no plex card cost or 10% loss in skill points because plex cards can be bought at the will of the player and 10% sp loss is a pain in the a** for veteran players. it can benefit people who have put so much effort in certain skills where patches have heavily changed areas where it could affect them. and for people who have had the mis-haps of getting podded without a clone have a one chance to re-map additional skills to be able to be efficient again. I had an accident as such and it took me another week to be able to use an exhumer again because eve somehow lost the record of me having a clone.
Id be happy to lose 10% to be able to fix up CCPs nerfs and changes. |
hellcane
Never Back Down
63
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Posted - 2013.07.13 20:54:00 -
[36] - Quote
Because eve is not wow. Most of that game's ideas will not transfer well. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
178
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Posted - 2013.07.14 00:19:00 -
[37] - Quote
hellcane wrote:Because eve is not wow. Most of that game's ideas will not transfer well. This comment makes no sense. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15191
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Posted - 2013.07.14 12:46:00 -
[38] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:tictaccarrol wrote:I say sp should be a choice to be re-maped once a yr like attributes. either remap the attributes or the sp. and once that's done then they have to wait another 365 days. just think about it. if your aloud to trade one character for another acc. holder's character then why can't you choose to re-map your sp once a yr. no plex card cost or 10% loss in skill points because plex cards can be bought at the will of the player and 10% sp loss is a pain in the a** for veteran players. it can benefit people who have put so much effort in certain skills where patches have heavily changed areas where it could affect them. and for people who have had the mis-haps of getting podded without a clone have a one chance to re-map additional skills to be able to be efficient again. I had an accident as such and it took me another week to be able to use an exhumer again because eve somehow lost the record of me having a clone.
Id be happy to lose 10% to be able to fix up CCPs nerfs and changes. CCP nerfs and changes things for balance. This does not mean you are entitled to a change of SP location. You took advantage of the reason for those nerfs and changes before, therefore you had use of those skill points.
Simply because CCP balances the game, doesn't mean those skill points are now pointless. It's not CCPs fault, if you chase FOTM and OP things in this game. It' is however CCP's duty to balance things they see as being OP.
Remapping SP is game breaking and fixes nothing. For all the reasons already stated.
Infinity Ziona wrote:hellcane wrote:Because eve is not wow. Most of that game's ideas will not transfer well. This comment makes no sense. He means that Eve's skill system isn't like those games. They have dedicated classes and are limiting in that respect as well as others. Eve on the other hand is classless, as anyone can do anything they wish. You simply have to train for it.
A friend said it quite nicely:
Tippia wrote:Respeccing exists in xp/level/class-based games to solve the problem that, as you level up, you pick more and more deeply nested skills from a small skill tree to build something that works together as a unit. If at any point, you mess up or if a skill is changed, that unity is broken. Your class also restricts what skill tree you have at your disposal so that's really just a set of root nodes for the whole tree. EVE doesn't work like that. At all. EVE has no levels and no classes, and no XP. You are not restricted to one narrow set of skills and the skill tree is not deeply nested to give you something new for each level. As a result, if you want to do something else or if you want to tweak things, you can just go and train it. It won't even take that long. The problem you are suggesting doesn't exist because the EVE skill system doesn't work in a way that creates such problems; the solution is already built into the system.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
hellcane
Never Back Down
66
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Posted - 2013.07.14 15:53:00 -
[39] - Quote
Close mags. I mean that every summer/major school holiday we seem to get more posts about the "skill wall", skill remaps, buying skill points for isk, and so on.
While I am assuming the OP got the idea of remap/respec from wow, I feel safe in that assumption. |
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
220
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Posted - 2013.07.14 20:14:00 -
[40] - Quote
*-deleted* saw that the mods had already touched on it |
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
196
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Posted - 2013.07.18 06:46:00 -
[41] - Quote
Mag's wrote:]CCP nerfs and changes things for balance. This does not mean you are entitled to a change of SP location. You took advantage of the reason for those nerfs and changes before, therefore you had use of those skill points.
Simply because CCP balances the game, doesn't mean those skill points are now pointless. It's not CCPs fault, if you chase FOTM and OP things in this game. It' is however CCP's duty to balance things they see as being OP.
Remapping SP is game breaking and fixes nothing. For all the reasons already stated.
This.
Here is how eve works:
CCP buffs, people rush to the new uberness, ccp nerfs when its abused or overused.
CCP should not be allowing shifing of the SP. mainly because in many cases it was so many people spamming SP to join the lemmings that got your ship(s) on the wtf op radar that got them nerfed in the first place.
Mommies a good example. If by chance you or someone you know enjoyed the golden days of the op buffed mommies, it was the overuse of them that got them nerfed back down to reality. I don't want ccp giving back mommie sp's to the people who ditched them at nerf time. they wanted the sp's for the mommie for the fun times, they can keep em during the less fun times.
Maybe next time ccp says lets try to fix em again 1000 people won't go using them to pop everything from cap fleets (thier intended purpose) to small roams in low sec (which is one of many reasons they got nerfed so quickly after buff....the dynamite fishing jsut got abused too hard). |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
178
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Posted - 2013.07.18 09:16:00 -
[42] - Quote
Mag's wrote:He means that Eve's skill system isn't like those games. They have dedicated classes and are limiting in that respect as well as others. Eve on the other hand is classless, as anyone can do anything they wish. You simply have to train for it.
Pretty much all incorrect. Let me point one error out.
Rather than EvE being classless it is full of classes. You jump in and out of classes everytime you jump into and out of specific ships. When you spend money and time on a product you have a right to expect the product you paid for and put effort into creating will have reasonable continuity of usefulness and not be arbitrarily modified into junk overnight without reasonable steps taken to compensate the consumer.
In tort law in most countries thats the stance the law takes. Obviously Im not suggesting suing over it but CCP has a really horrid track record when it comes to nerfs in regards to its players. Its pretty much pot luck whether the character you build today might suddeny be pointless tomorrow.
In those situations they should be reallocating wasted points.
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Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
24
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Posted - 2013.07.18 09:42:00 -
[43] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mag's wrote:He means that Eve's skill system isn't like those games. They have dedicated classes and are limiting in that respect as well as others. Eve on the other hand is classless, as anyone can do anything they wish. You simply have to train for it.
Pretty much all incorrect. Let me point one error out. Rather than EvE being classless it is full of classes. You jump in and out of classes everytime you jump into and out of specific ships. When you spend money and time on a product you have a right to expect the product you paid for and put effort into creating will have reasonable continuity of usefulness and not be arbitrarily modified into junk overnight without reasonable steps taken to compensate the consumer. In tort law in most countries thats the stance the law takes. Obviously Im not suggesting suing over it but CCP has a really horrid track record when it comes to nerfs in regards to its players. Its pretty much pot luck whether the character you build today might suddeny be pointless tomorrow. In those situations they should be reallocating wasted points.
There's no such thing as "wasted skillpoints".
Also, stop chasing FOTM. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3694
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 18:58:00 -
[44] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Pretty much all incorrect. Let me point one error out.
Rather than EvE being classless it is full of classes. You jump in and out of classes everytime you jump into and out of specific ships. When you spend money and time on a product you have a right to expect the product you paid for and put effort into creating will have reasonable continuity of usefulness and not be arbitrarily modified into junk overnight without reasonable steps taken to compensate the consumer.
The product you pay for is access to the game as it exists. No more, no less. If you no longer wish to access the game, you are free to avail yourself of the exclusive remedy provided in the EULA. That is to say, stop paying your sub.
Quote:In tort law in most countries thats the stance the law takes. Obviously Im not suggesting suing over it but CCP has a really horrid track record when it comes to nerfs in regards to its players. Its pretty much pot luck whether the character you build today might suddeny be pointless tomorrow.
If you went to a lawyer, he'd point out that you do not own your character and have no legal interest in your character, so you cannot be harmed by CCPs actions to your character. Tort law in most countries is clear that you cannot sue someone over something they do to their own property if you do not have any legal interest in that property.
Quote:In those situations they should be reallocating wasted points. In every situation where CCP has created conditions where people could have wasted skillpoints, they have reimbursed those skillpoints. That is, Learning Skills and the BC/Destroyer corner case. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
244
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 19:24:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote: There's no such thing as "wasted skillpoints".
All the PI skills I injected are "wasted skillpoints".
Vote for PLEX for Removal of Unwanted Skills R.I.P. Vile Rat |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
180
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Posted - 2013.07.19 11:39:00 -
[46] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Pretty much all incorrect. Let me point one error out.
Rather than EvE being classless it is full of classes. You jump in and out of classes everytime you jump into and out of specific ships. When you spend money and time on a product you have a right to expect the product you paid for and put effort into creating will have reasonable continuity of usefulness and not be arbitrarily modified into junk overnight without reasonable steps taken to compensate the consumer.
The product you pay for is access to the game as it exists. No more, no less. If you no longer wish to access the game, you are free to avail yourself of the exclusive remedy provided in the EULA. That is to say, stop paying your sub. Quote:In tort law in most countries thats the stance the law takes. Obviously Im not suggesting suing over it but CCP has a really horrid track record when it comes to nerfs in regards to its players. Its pretty much pot luck whether the character you build today might suddeny be pointless tomorrow. If you went to a lawyer, he'd point out that you do not own your character and have no legal interest in your character, so you cannot be harmed by CCPs actions to your character. Tort law in most countries is clear that you cannot sue someone over something they do to their own property if you do not have any legal interest in that property. Quote:In those situations they should be reallocating wasted points. In every situation where CCP has created conditions where people could have wasted skillpoints, they have reimbursed those skillpoints. That is, Learning Skills and the BC/Destroyer corner case. EULA are simply contacts between two parties, in terms of hierarchy they are the lowest, common or judge made law supersedes them and then legislation or statute law supersedes both.
The majority of EULA have invalid or unenforceable clauses because common and statute law override them however they are still included to deter lawsuits.
As I said earlier when you offer a service and in offering that service promise even in inference a specific outcome (12 months of 14.99 for a character that can churn out big effective long range torpedo spewing ships) but then suddenly decide to change that service to something useless (12 months of 14.99 for a character that shots short range low damage slow firing ships) you have potentially breached your contract and should compensate your customer by allowing them to choose a different service (reallocate).
I'm not a lawyer but I am qualified to work as a paralegal. Perhaps a legal person could pipe up but pretty sure I'm correct.
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Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
130
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Posted - 2013.07.19 13:12:00 -
[47] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:As I said earlier when you offer a service and in offering that service promise even in inference a specific outcome (12 months of 14.99 for a character that can churn out big effective long range torpedo spewing ships) but then suddenly decide to change that service to something useless (12 months of 14.99 for a character that shots short range low damage slow firing ships) you have potentially breached your contract and should compensate your customer by allowing them to choose a different service (reallocate). Even if doing so potentially compromises the integrity of the game, or at least vastly changes its character? If CCP has to go giving SP back every time they change something (and SOMEONE is going to find some way to claim that a portion of their SP is now "wasted" because of any given change), we're going to eventually achieve uniformity of SP distribution, and that's boring.
This is coming from someone who is currently lubing up in expectation of seeing his favorite ship class, Marauders (very high SP commitment), lose the things he likes so much about them when the balance gun gets pointed their way. What will I do if my worst fears are realized? Maybe ***** about it a little bit for catharsis, then find the next best thing and keep going. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3695
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 17:04:00 -
[48] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:EULA are simply contacts between two parties, in terms of hierarchy they are the lowest, common or judge made law supersedes them and then legislation or statute law supersedes both.
The majority of EULA have invalid or unenforceable clauses because common and statute law override them however they are still included to deter lawsuits.
I suppose you could find a Judge who would rule that your character belongs to you. But then CCP would simply hand you a thumb drive with your character on it, and refuse to renew the contract (i.e. they would refund any outstanding sub you've paid and ban you).
So show me the case that renders the "you are paying for access to the game, not your stuff in the game" clause is unenforceable. There's no law or caselaw that renders EULAs, as a class, unenforceable.
Quote:As I said earlier when you offer a service and in offering that service promise even in inference a specific outcome (12 months of 14.99 for a character that can churn out big effective long range torpedo spewing ships) but then suddenly decide to change that service to something useless (12 months of 14.99 for a character that shots short range low damage slow firing ships) you have potentially breached your contract and should compensate your customer by allowing them to choose a different service (reallocate).
I'm not a lawyer but I am qualified to work as a paralegal. Perhaps a legal person could pipe up but pretty sure I'm correct.
You seem confused about the nature of the service CCP is providing. The EULA explicitly states what service that is. They do not imply anywhere that they will never nerf things for the good of the game (in fact, they say in the EULA that they may promulgate required updates to the software). If you've read something that's not there, I'll note that there's no penalty to you terminating your contract with CCP and suggest that you avail yourself of that option if any change is unacceptable.
CCP provided you access to the game for 12 months in exchange for 12 months of sub fee. That access is what you paid for, that access is what CCP promised, and that access is what you received. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
182
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 08:01:00 -
[49] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:EULA are simply contacts between two parties, in terms of hierarchy they are the lowest, common or judge made law supersedes them and then legislation or statute law supersedes both.
The majority of EULA have invalid or unenforceable clauses because common and statute law override them however they are still included to deter lawsuits. I suppose you could find a Judge who would rule that your character belongs to you. But then CCP would simply hand you a thumb drive with your character on it, and refuse to renew the contract (i.e. they would refund any outstanding sub you've paid and ban you). So show me the case that renders the "you are paying for access to the game, not your stuff in the game" clause is unenforceable. There's no law or caselaw that renders EULAs, as a class, unenforceable. Quote:As I said earlier when you offer a service and in offering that service promise even in inference a specific outcome (12 months of 14.99 for a character that can churn out big effective long range torpedo spewing ships) but then suddenly decide to change that service to something useless (12 months of 14.99 for a character that shots short range low damage slow firing ships) you have potentially breached your contract and should compensate your customer by allowing them to choose a different service (reallocate).
I'm not a lawyer but I am qualified to work as a paralegal. Perhaps a legal person could pipe up but pretty sure I'm correct.
You seem confused about the nature of the service CCP is providing. The EULA explicitly states what service that is. They do not imply anywhere that they will never nerf things for the good of the game (in fact, they say in the EULA that they may promulgate required updates to the software). If you've read something that's not there, I'll note that there's no penalty to you terminating your contract with CCP and suggest that you avail yourself of that option if any change is unacceptable. CCP provided you access to the game for 12 months in exchange for 12 months of sub fee. That access is what you paid for, that access is what CCP promised, and that access is what you received. No they offer an ongoing service and refer to ingame characters and items as "your" characters and items. As part of the offer they promise progression in the form of skillpoints. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3696
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 08:09:00 -
[50] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:No they offer an ongoing service and refer to ingame characters and items as "your" characters and items. As part of the offer they promise progression in the form of skillpoints.
If you would, please quote and link to the place where CCP promises skillpoint progression as you suggest they do, or somewhere where CCP says you own your character. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
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Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
28
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 12:41:00 -
[51] - Quote
Why it's so difficult for some to understand?
- I, too, was stupid when I started playing EVE. - I used to train all interesting looking skills. Some of them are skills I've never used. - I would like to move skillpoints from those skills to skills I actually use.
BUT I can see how it could easily destroy current skill system. |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
15
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Posted - 2013.07.20 13:12:00 -
[52] - Quote
@RubyPorto
Whipping out a hypothetical man made thing such as "law" would be the lowest form of philosophical discourse. That is the equivalent of adding the status quo as a solution to the status quo, with a detour. If circular logic is your preference then please get a job in law enforcement, but leave the policing out of philosophical matters since dogma is the death of reason t.y.v.m.
Now as to the original post I think CCP is already seeing the light on this matter as they have lowered clone costs by 30% as a preliminary change in a step by step basis, underlying motivation being to eliminate their previous obviously flawed ways of massive changes. In the end I hope to see clone costs eliminated and implants re-usable, maybe with a re-use restriction timer, that should eliminate the weight of unused skill-points to a larger extent. CCP's failing has been admitted by CCP in the way of apologies, beyond this all there is the pragmatic reality that as a company admissions of guilt are just a legal suicide maneuver. Companies have a basic moral obligation to deliver on a sold product, intentional failure to do as such would be a heinous breach of trust, unintentional or failure to deliver on the basis of design philosophy is not the same as promising a tangible object like a loaf of bread or a real life service like a customer service. All there is left is a flaw in logic and a reasonable and rational basis for trust on the basis of mutual benefit within the boundaries of a psychopathic shareholder driven (fictional) entity created solely to evade accountability called "a corporation" making it's money off of keeping as many people happy with said product as the bottom line allows them.
When those changes take effect I think the effort to re-skill into more viable weapon-systems should be less debilitating and i.m.h.o. this is probably one of the main motivators for CCP to have started a more egalitarian weapon-system distribution (empires now all have some mesh of missile,turret and to a lesser extent drone boats) with a more rigid empire focus as clear balancing act (think BC, destroyer changes).
As for training P.I. when you are not sure about wether you'll use it, well that is an undertaking you "PRIORITIZE" over things you know you will be using for sure like ship skills. Id say use the test server (SiSi) in the future hehe. And as mentioned before the character bazaar is just a wonderfully pragmatic and progressive step to lessen the effect of unavoidable processes like "isk farming" as an out of game profession destroying the in-game habitat. |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
28
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 14:01:00 -
[53] - Quote
Marcus Walkuris wrote:When those changes take effect I think the effort to re-skill into more viable weapon-systems should be less debilitating and i.m.h.o. this is probably one of the main motivators for CCP to have started a more egalitarian weapon-system distribution (empires now all have some mesh of missile,turret and to a lesser extent drone boats) with a more rigid empire focus as clear balancing act (think BC, destroyer changes).
Why it's so important to be able to train at max speed and when skill is done move SP to skills you want and then start training at beginning? Why it's so important to chase FOTM? |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
128
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 14:57:00 -
[54] - Quote
Marcus Walkuris wrote:@RubyPorto
Whipping out a hypothetical man made thing such as "law" would be the lowest form of philosophical discourse. That is the equivalent of adding the status quo as a solution to the status quo, with a detour. If circular logic is your preference then please get a job in law enforcement, but leave the policing out of philosophical matters since dogma is the death of reason t.y.v.m.
i wouldn't bother to argue with rubyporto. That guy lives on these forums to make nonsensical arguments. "I think weGÇÖre just getting closer and closer to a place where the people we lose are people that itGÇÖs okay to lose." -Kristoffer Touborg, Eve lead designer
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Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
128
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 15:15:00 -
[55] - Quote
It is a great idea but you won't be able to convince the dopes who have dedicated so many years of their life to EVE and gotten the majority of the skills they need. They will make any nonsensical argument to keep their advantage and keep the competition from newer players down. Since EVE is a relatively low skill demanding game, the one thing that seperates newbs from vets is those skills that were trained, not with effort but with wait time. "I think weGÇÖre just getting closer and closer to a place where the people we lose are people that itGÇÖs okay to lose." -Kristoffer Touborg, Eve lead designer
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3696
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Posted - 2013.07.20 20:39:00 -
[56] - Quote
Marcus Walkuris wrote:@RubyPorto
Whipping out a hypothetical man made thing such as "law" would be the lowest form of philosophical discourse. That is the equivalent of adding the status quo as a solution to the status quo, with a detour. If circular logic is your preference then please get a job in law enforcement, but leave the policing out of philosophical matters since dogma is the death of reason t.y.v.m.
You may want to read the thread and see who brought up an argument about the legalities of CCP changing the rules of its own game. I see no problem in attempting to correct someone's misapprehensions about basic concepts in tort law.
If CCP wanted to, they could allow you to reallocate SP when they changed something, just like they are able to not allow you to reallocate SP when they change something, and neither option exposes them to any liability. The OP claimed that one of those options does expose them to liability based on a flawed premise about what your subscription actually pays for.
The argument for why adding skill remaps to the game would be bad for the game (thus why CCP shouldn't allow them) has been well covered on page one, and every other thread about the subject, so I saw no need to rehash it. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
462
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 21:35:00 -
[57] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote: the one thing that separates newbs from vets is those skills that were trained, not with effort but with wait time.
The effort is exactly the same for vets as it is for newbs. And all vets were in fact newbs at one time themselves. It could easily be argued that vets had to put out more effort back then than newbs do now.
The wait time though, the wait time has a cost of real dollars. And with that cost the player receives a value. Nobody wants to devalue their own character. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1397
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 02:52:00 -
[58] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:When you spend money and time on a product you have a right to expect the product you paid for and put effort into creating will have reasonable continuity of usefulness and not be arbitrarily modified into junk overnight without reasonable steps taken to compensate the consumer.
In tort law in most countries thats the stance the law takes.
That's a pretty novel theory as it might apply to EVE. First, you're not purchasing a product, which limits your legal options to start with. You are, in fact, subscribing to a service. CCP defines that service pretty darn narrowly as access to the game and not access to any damn thing you want within the game. Limiting in-game progression is a business decision on their part and unless you can prove injury it will stay their decision.
Basically, your objection would be limited to an implied warranty claim. There's absolutely no chance you can prove to a court's satisfaction that you meet the criteria UCC sets forth. Take a look at UCC 2 314; you aren't being denied anything in the ordinary purpose of goods (ie, access to an online game). The claim would be thrown out.
Infinity Ziona wrote:No they offer an ongoing service and refer to ingame characters and items as "your" characters and items. As part of the offer they promise progression in the form of skillpoints.
Actually, they only offer the opportunity to accumulate skill points, and that itself is contract-specific. CCP has no implied liability for lapses in skill point acquisition and there's actually nothing stopping them from freezing all progression where it is right now. Again, this is settled law.
As to whether you have any ownership of in-game items: that's perfectly clear. You don't. CCP owns all of it. That's exactly why they can stop you from RMT transactions; they legally own everything in the game and it isn't yours to sell except with their express consent (and in this case, through their designated marketplaces). This further weakens the claim of real damages: you don't "own" anything other than a subscription to a service that CCP is free to define as part of their offer.
Infinity Ziona wrote:I'm not a lawyer but I am qualified to work as a paralegal. Perhaps a legal person could pipe up but pretty sure I'm correct.
Consider it done. Granted, this is from the perspective of the US legal system, but as you noted early on, tort law is actually pretty standard across national borders.
There's also a minor issue of jurisdiction, but that's muddy on internet services such as this one. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15251
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 10:36:00 -
[59] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mag's wrote:He means that Eve's skill system isn't like those games. They have dedicated classes and are limiting in that respect as well as others. Eve on the other hand is classless, as anyone can do anything they wish. You simply have to train for it.
Pretty much all incorrect. Let me point one error out. Rather than EvE being classless it is full of classes. You jump in and out of classes everytime you jump into and out of specific ships. When you spend money and time on a product you have a right to expect the product you paid for and put effort into creating will have reasonable continuity of usefulness and not be arbitrarily modified into junk overnight without reasonable steps taken to compensate the consumer. In tort law in most countries thats the stance the law takes. Obviously Im not suggesting suing over it but CCP has a really horrid track record when it comes to nerfs in regards to its players. Its pretty much pot luck whether the character you build today might suddeny be pointless tomorrow. In those situations they should be reallocating wasted points. And each and everyone has access to those classes at any time. They simply need to train for it, in other words, classless. Other games on the other hand, limit you to one class. This makes them class based games.
Also, you don't own your char or any of the items. They all belong to CCP. You pay for access to the server, through the use of their free client. What you do with that access is your choice, CCP simply give you the tools to do whatever you wish within the games boundaries. It's their job to make sure the mechanics within those boundaries, are balanced.
No skill point is wasted, they still allows you access to mechanics of the game. If skills are removed and that access removed with them, then they refund you the SP.
Hope this helps.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Voxinian
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 11:13:00 -
[60] - Quote
I think it would be nice to have at least a one time remap of a few million SP-¦s. With that you can fix any mistakes you made when you just started playing EVE. For example I trained in the beginning to fly Amarr ships simply because my character started out in Ammar space and the first ships I got from missions were Amarr ships. So the whole tutorial missions pushed me into the direction of Amarr skills. After having played a few months I decided to go for Caldari ships and all the skills that go with that, so all the armor skills and laser skills I did not really needed anymore, thats definitely a few mil SP-¦s that I would have liked to use for Caldari skills. |
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