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constructive fix for dealing with alt-theives

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Cro Ramel	Posted - 2003.08.05 14:02:00 - [1] I've heard some decent fixes for this problem. Character birth-dates, telling you if the character was just created or an older character pretending to be new player. This works but then again every once in a while a new player isn't a thief. Another proposal I heard was DNA testing characters for corporations so that you can find out who their alts are. Although many people seemed to like this one I however do not, I think it violates the confidentiality that people should have with their alts if they are not doing anything wrong. Well I'm not sure if the idea I have has been proposed yet and already beaten to death but after hearing about what happened with Rogue Noir. (CEO of a corp played his corp for months of work then transferred all his possessions to an alt and deleted his corp) I propose a way to deal with this problem. Either make a skill or give agents the ability to track transfers of money or acknowledge that a player trade occurred. Corp gets robbed, they have a reason to suspect someone. They dig up who this alt sent money to. They track them down and make them give the stuff back or pod them into oblivion. Should the stuff be sold on the trade channel to someone thats not in on the steal, thats pretty rough you're buying hot items still. Anyway CCP please consider this I think it would help a lot of people get justice and wouldnt violate honest people's privacy. And to all you players out there please make this one be heard I'd like to hear some of your opinions on the matter. Cro out... "If it sounds like a bad idea, it is."
Scragg	Posted - 2003.08.05 14:12:00 - [2] Or people could just use something completely new and foreign to them; Common sense and good judgment. Scragg, Tyrell Corporation Vice-Director Military Operations
Mitchman	Posted - 2003.08.05 15:20:00 - [3] Good judgement is all fine and dandy, except in the case mentioned in the original posting. This was a CEO that ripped all the members of the corp off. How can you use good judgement when the person in charge of the corp rips it off? I can very well understand that the people in Noir are upset, who wouldn't be. Although I'm not sure if some kind of skill to follow the money trail is the way to handle this problem, it certainly is a beginning and will fit into the gameplay nicely. However, what kindof exploits can we see forthcoming with such a skill? What's the catch?
Cro Ramel	Posted - 2003.08.05 15:34:00 - [4] I don't think it will really be abused. You can see who someone sent money to and how much. And you can see that two people participated in a trade but not what they traded. Using this to see who did what does not necessarily mean that you know who their alts are you just know where the money went. Its a means for those that got robbed to get some justice. As for exploits to get around this I can only think of one and its quite risky. "If it sounds like a bad idea, it is."
Dianabolic	Posted - 2003.08.05 15:48:00 - [5] Scragg - read the post, the CEO ripped off his own corp.
Syphin	Posted - 2003.08.05 16:33:00 - [6] I remember reading something way back (possibly beta) about CEO's and directors being able to see all of the alt's of a person who joined the corp. Although if you are the CEO it is very hard to stop you from doing anything you please with the corp. - - - - - - - Disclaimer I take no responsibility for the spelling or grammar usage in the above statement Nor do i agree with its ideas and or claims Or even acknowledge its existance.
Propehcy	Posted - 2003.08.05 17:19:00 - [7] I have a bunch to say to this, because CCP and Eve's many problems are beginning to ** me off. so here we go. Cro - you have some good sugestions there, the best of which would be money tracking, that would be huge. My 2cents for ideas is (although not a great one, but im throwing it out there anyways) is to jst have 1 char. that way if you want to be a sniviling theifs *, i say good on you! we can hunt you down and podd you for the rest of your career on that char. but that would raise more problems... not sure what they are but i know they would come. CCP - Get your together and address some of the "major" issues. annoying as they are CTD's dont people off as much as some *** joining your corp taking a months worth of work and dissapearing in to thin air, as contrary to YOUR line of thought, this is not 'gameplay' thats fraud, and does not do anything to move the game in a positive way. Another issue i have is bounty hunting, even the bounty hunters admit, theres no way to track people, and to acually receive a bounty is pure luck, or stupidity on the fellons part. In the GAME MANUAL it says a bounty hunter will be able to track ships via "ship ID's", well, where the hell are they? agents are next to useless, and if the person you're tracking moves you're SOL ( Out of Luck) and wasted 120k. Concord is a joke, pirates with -9.9 sec ratings can fly into 1.0 systems blow away miners and run off with NO intervention by concord, while miners get obliterated by the cops for taking pot shots at ore theifs. Im not going to get into the lesser issues until these main big ones are solved, but i will leave you guys with this though (if the devs even read this): Eve could be a great game, but right now it is extremly lacking in alot of departments, if you dont fix some of these major issues you're going to be losing alot of subscriptions, MINE included, and the last thing eve needs right now is to LOSE players. Even if you dont have the features implemented a board that tells us (the >>>PAYING<<< players) about what you plan to implement, how it's going to work, and WHEN it's going to be implemented, that would recover alot of lost confidence from the players. would for me anyways. Im going to post this thread in all the channles so more people are aware of this. Propehcy Ex-CA Rep and Ex-CA Member http://www.designegrafix.com/eve/prop5.jpg Props Chop Shop: Ships, Arms, and Armaments producer for Northern Eve! Located at Torrinos 5 - 6 - Home Guard Assembley. The Prop And Notferr Chronicles** Notferr> Propehcy Owns me! Yet I feel so much Fear in his Evil Presence! Propehcy> Bow Down, You know who your Master is. Notferr> Only Prop is King!! Only Prop!! I Am nothing! Propehcy> I think Stav would be Proud. Propehcy> I Need a Tool... Where is that Notferr... [ 2004.09.11 28:63:98 ] Propehcy 2004.09.11 29:05:33.3 combat Your Miner II perfectly strikes Notferr, wrecking for WTFPWNAGE.
Skillz	Posted - 2003.08.05 18:13:00 - [8] Edited by: Skillz on 05/08/2003 18:19:34 Elite spies like Da Skillz have numerous accounts anyways. Spying is practially impossible to fully stop. One option is to only accept IRL friends (Paranoia version), the less paranoid version is to only accept people you know from other online games. Theives are very easy. No hangar access for anyone exept the CEO. Any player needing 'hangar access' sucks anyways. If the CEO is a theif (I don't see the reason), you can't do anything about it whatsoever on corp prop. Solution, members own their own stuff. Keep on flaming, lamers.
Mozat	Posted - 2003.08.05 19:30:00 - [9] At this rate everyone will be a one-man corporation no one will be trusted. CCP get your **** together or you’ll only have the developers playing this game.
Cro Ramel	Posted - 2003.08.05 19:51:00 - [10] Skillz- Spies most people could care less about. Any corp that earns a spy within its ranks will find it in under a week. If you're not working for the corp, you're out of the corp. Thieves however can be very harmful to the cooperation based game, especially when you can't police it. At least with my idea you can track down someone if they play the steal your isk, give to my main character, then delete my alt game. "If it sounds like a bad idea, it is."
Darth Maul	Posted - 2003.08.05 21:07:00 - [11] The "DNA testing" to see all current and prievious alts on a given account is the perfect and easiest solution to this problem. I've made this same suggestion many times - but thanks to this boards **** non existant search feature I can't find them - overall the feedback was in agreement tho.
Acix	Posted - 2003.08.05 23:09:00 - [12] The best way to fix this problem is to bring it down to its most primative form. People make alts but use the same paying account to do so. CCP should have a database of the paying customers. I really think they do because I get a bill each month....... The most primative fix to this is have a listing of all characters past and present for each account. The fix for the multiple accounts is that the billing address will be the same or the name on a credit card will be the same. This will take the single player theives out of the mix. CCP could look on the transaction logs for who they gave the money/items to and delete all accounts that conspired to do the theivery. If someone bought something that was a hot item they could petition to be reinstated. That would be easy since not one person would buy all the items off a theif at one time. CCP would see a tree form of all the people buying things in the transaction logs of the last alt to do the selling. But the only way to take the multiple parties theivery out of the game would be to actually do a query to the database for an id # of items. CCP should know how many items and where they are. This would be a huge database but it is the only way this can ever be taken care of. Thats the most primative fix. Skills and DNA testing or whatever else would require this database to be running to begin with...... SNIGG is now officially open for business. We are a merc corp looking for contracts. For more info click below http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=68313
j0ik	Posted - 2003.08.05 23:13:00 - [13] Arrr! DNA testing be a terrible idea! If it were to go in, yeh'd all find out who I really was! Harrr! Yarrrr Matey! I be the nefarious j0ik of the deep spaces piggies! Yarrrr! Harrr! Arrr! I'm a narsty pirate! Har har yarrrr!
PoXiE	Posted - 2003.08.06 00:31:00 - [14] I have 2 alts as well...and on both i believe that confidentiality is key to thier sucess. Taking away this key method would ruin it for people like me who thrive on information. ; )
Acix	Posted - 2003.08.06 00:41:00 - [15] read my post again I said that you do not need DNA testing, meaning that only CCP would have the lists of accounts with the attached lists of characters to that account, alive or dead characters............ SNIGG is now officially open for business. We are a merc corp looking for contracts. For more info click below http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=68313
Cro Ramel	Posted - 2003.08.06 04:43:00 - [16] I think DNA testing is too much of a breach of confidentiality. You shouldn't be able to know out-right what all of a person's alts are. And CCP shouldnt take out of game actions against theives. All I have proposed is an in-game mechanism for tracking theives in-game... if they transferred money to an alt or someone else so be it...but you can find out who. "If it sounds like a bad idea, it is."
Propehcy	Posted - 2003.08.06 09:21:00 - [17] cro is right, we need an INgame solution, CCP shouldnt need to interfear, beacause that would cost them money and time they can use to fix all this ** up. like cro said before, money tracking and like that would work pretty good, because you could track it over alts, and such. and really, cro, would you REALLY care if some *** stole 3weeks worth of work? i think not. YEAH!... KILL STUFF!!..... wud up! Proph Ex-CA Rep and Ex-CA Member http://www.designegrafix.com/eve/prop5.jpg Props Chop Shop: Ships, Arms, and Armaments producer for Northern Eve! Located at Torrinos 5 - 6 - Home Guard Assembley. The Prop And Notferr Chronicles** Notferr> Propehcy Owns me! Yet I feel so much Fear in his Evil Presence! Propehcy> Bow Down, You know who your Master is. Notferr> Only Prop is King!! Only Prop!! I Am nothing! Propehcy> I think Stav would be Proud. Propehcy> I Need a Tool... Where is that Notferr... [ 2004.09.11 28:63:98 ] Propehcy 2004.09.11 29:05:33.3 combat Your Miner II perfectly strikes Notferr, wrecking for WTFPWNAGE.
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2003.08.06 12:44:00 - [18] Agents desperately need a usefulness boost, and Papa just came back, so Cro's suggestion is timely (hey Cro, how'd that go with Jonny last night? Was there an asshanding on either side? Ah, the entertainment value of local bleed....). Tracking financial records is exactly the kind of thing you hire a bureaucratic contact for (you have NO IDEA how many tries i needed to spell that right and i'm still not 100% sure ). This makes absolutely no claim of whose alt is whose; just, All The Money Went There (c.f. Chris Tucker's Theory of Criminal Investigations, 'follow the rich white guy'). You have to draw your own conclusions on that point. The further removed the subject is from oneself, the higher the agent needed / harder the action. Frex, you're a Director, you want Member Fred tailed to see if he's been privately selling off large of amounts of megacyte that just happen to keep disappearing from the corp hangar. Easy. If you're a Pilot of the same corp, it should be a little harder to find out what Fred's been up to (unless you have better agents than the Director, of course....) Getting info on the transactions of some other corp's members should be much harder. I think this is workable without too much effort, really, and completely removing this "confidentiality" business as an issue. You're playing a game, not confessing to a priest :P You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.
Dyvim Slorm	Posted - 2003.08.06 14:30:00 - [19] Another variation on Cro's idea might be that money transfers cannot be made between alts, but require a number of other players to "launder" the isk (as in RL). I don't think you can have a pure in game solution unless you are only allowed one character. Having alts is by its very nature a form of exploit, you don't get em in RL.
Sariel Moardurr	Posted - 2003.08.06 21:16:00 - [20] Edited by: Sariel Moardurr on 06/08/2003 21:17:14 Another solution would be to just eliminate the use of alts. I guess the use of alts trend came from other MMORPGs but is it really that big of a feature to have for a game? If you want to use alternative characters, buy another license and pay another subscription I still dont understand why someone would want to take training time away from there main character for an alt anyway? (that is another argument for another time ) The birth date idea is another good option also. As pirates pay the consequenses of being a pirate, so should thieves if they choose to be thieves by having to run from the people they scam. Skills and modules can be developped and implemented to help the thieves and the victims. This game needs more fun things to do as it is allready. Only having one alt, with a BD would solve alot of problems with scamming. "Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing......ya keep talk'n" Hank Hill
Shintoko Akahoshi	Posted - 2003.08.06 23:08:00 - [21] Speaking as an ex-Noir Enterprises member, I don't think we need to get CCP to do anything about this. Rogue defrauded the corp and then went on the lam. Creating an alt and transferring the goods to them is akin to creating a new identity in RL, something that really does happen. Corporate theft by CEOs is a fact of RL life (cough Enron). We can deal with this sort of thing in game as players, without getting CCP to lay down some heavy-handed solution that will end up limiting a bunch of peoples play. There's no meaning to life when you cling only to common sense
Derkan	Posted - 2003.08.07 01:24:00 - [22] A pirate ****ing and moaning about people that steal from corperations? Thats rich. Stop camping gates and maybe what you have to say might make some sense. This is the best joke I've heard all day. http://eve-coldfusion.com
Cro Ramel	Posted - 2003.08.07 05:03:00 - [23] Quote: (hey Cro, how'd that go with Jonny last night? Was there an asshanding on either side? Ah, the entertainment value of local bleed....). Off topic: Sigh.... my poor thorax....Two things I learned from last night. One never fight in a busy system at a station in window mode and Two you can never be too*****y with a fully insured ship. :p And whoever said that I couldnt care less if someone lost three weeks of work doesnt know me. Real pirates have swords not computers. "If it sounds like a bad idea, it is."
Wild Rho	Posted - 2003.08.07 10:38:00 - [24] How about making tis DNA testing voluntary? A CEO or director can demand that all members submit to a DNA test at random times. From this test u can see their alt characters etc which might help. Players who do not wish to have their alt characters to be revieled can have their access restricted until they submit. As for the ceo theft, eve is all about freedom. If u want to form a corp and steal from it its your choice. But members should be given some way of tracking the money for goods. To stop a player from stealing from a corp, restrict their access to your hangers until u are certain u can trust them. Its up to the director and ceo to organise and handle internal security. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Cell Satimo	Posted - 2003.08.07 11:56:00 - [25] I agree with removing Alts. Particularly in EVE when there is little long-term advantage to having different races, give you can probably eventually train up all skills (albiet at different speeds). On the other hand, I've posted it before, you can already do a significant amount of tracking to research and identify alts. Try think about it and put some skill points into your RL intelligence. If you can't be bothered, message me in game and I'll do it for you .. for a fee :) \| Join eve-webring.com to promote your site.
Cro Ramel	Posted - 2003.08.07 15:38:00 - [26] Rho - The problem I have with DNA testing is that for people with multiple accounts it won't help the problem. You can't see those alts. But if you can see where the money is being sent you can follow them that way. Player theft is pretty easy to deal with....CEO theft on the other hand is very difficult... "If it sounds like a bad idea, it is."
Wild Rho	Posted - 2003.08.08 11:12:00 - [27] Ok I see your point. But it would have to be skill based like an espionage skill where a player can gather general or specific data on a player. I'm not sure what factors and attributes might determine how this skill operates and how effecitive it is but I can see many uses. First of all in this case it could be used to gather the wallet journal data of a specific player (even for a time after they have been deleted - I'm not sure how this would affect the server performance but you never know until u ask). This means a member of the corp can see where cash or equipment has been transferred to. Other applications of this skill could be used to determine where a player is (whether offline or online). This might come in handy for bounty hunters looking for a target. The accuracy of the data could be classed in 3 ways. Low accuracy might give the hunter the Region the target is in. Medium might give the constellation and High might give the system. Your rank, attributes and other factors could determine how likely you are to get information on a particular level. High chance of getting a region location but low chance of getting a system location etc. Other applications could be finding out a players skills, assets etc. The espionage skill would need to be a high ranking one sinmply because of the abilities and oppertunities it can give u, it would also make security people much more valuable as they can do more than escort miners etc. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Cro Ramel	Posted - 2003.08.08 13:54:00 - [28] Rho - I really like your ideas for the bounty hunting stuff. Low, Med, High priority is really cool! I think though that if it were skill based (this includes tracking money transfers) it would either be way too common or way too rare. I think it should be a rare but obtainable goal. I don't think it should be skill based however I would like to see it as an agent feature that costs money. It should give a snapshot of their wallet that you can browse through but there should be limitations on it as for how long they stick around after the character has been deleted. Anyway, great ideas hope to hear more from you, Cro out. "If it sounds like a bad idea, it is."
Drahcir	Posted - 2003.08.08 20:39:00 - [29] Well I have stated this before maybe we can add onto it here. If CCP Could enact a JUSTICE SYSTEM like ummmmm maybe you file a report/grievance with a special division of CONCORDE. This special division run either by Polaris or GM's. In your report/grievance you cite all your proof to what happenned. This special division then rnders a decision on your case and you are given or not given permission to declare a personal ware to get retribution. But only then can you do so without sec hit etc and only with the blessing. The decision comes with a special code that you enter and that is how you are able to declare your personal war. Just an opinion and suggestion as a fix. I think it has the capability of fixing a few of the problems such as ore thiefs, scam artists, corp theives, etc. I'd like to hear what you all think. Drahcir CEO - Enron Enery Consortium
Shanda Lear	Posted - 2003.08.09 03:22:00 - [30] In real life, would you walk up to someone you saw nearby, not knowing them, and hand them your keys, asking for them to watch your house, your pet and your kids while you're out of town for a month? They why would you do the same in the game if you're not willing to live with the consequences. Restrict access to resources you don't want to walk away. My corp has one hangar for dropping off valuables for the corp, but only corp execs can take stuff out of the hangar. "He was the CEO". Well, would you go work for a guy who set up shop out of a rent-by-the-week office on a cash basis and leave your valuables with him "because he's the CEO of his own corporation?" Deal with it. Use your common judgement. If you don't want to have to think about it, then form a gang with your best friends and go mine ore and shoot ships.

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