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Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
0
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Posted - 2011.10.21 07:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ok some of you my or my not remeaber me from the level 5's in high sec debats.
I just would like to take this time to just ask one ?
Why did CCP bother taking level 5's out of high sec and then put Incursions in? Now dont get me wrong I love Incursions even more then I loved High sec level 5's. I fought hard to keep them.
It looks stupid to me at least to remove High sec level 5's in the face of High sec Incursions.
Now dont get me wrong here I no longer care about high sec level 5's and would not bother doing them. At least not with Incursions happening.
I'm just wondering how many other people think the remove of High sec level 5's in the face of handing us High sec Incursions that are even better then level 5's was kind of I dont know stupid? A needless effort? Looks something like No kid smoking tabbaco is bad for you here is a 10 ring hitter and some weed this is much better for you kind of deal? |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
104
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Posted - 2011.10.21 07:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
The logic of it is lost on me too to be honest .. |
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels The Obsidian Front
1
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Posted - 2011.10.21 08:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
I totally agree, look a bit odd and i would like to see high sec lvl 5s again.
Im not a fan of incursions, done them a few times but would like to see some challanges i can do solo without having to worrie about getting ganked and spamming D-Scan for probes every 2 sec.
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Coolmer
Druzba od vjesala
3
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Posted - 2011.10.21 10:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Me to agree and will be happy to see it in high sec.
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XXSketchxx
Remote Soviet Industries
39
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Posted - 2011.10.21 12:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ynot Eyob wrote:I totally agree, look a bit odd and i would like to see high sec lvl 5s again.
Im not a fan of incursions, done them a few times but would like to see some challanges i can do solo without having to worrie about getting ganked and spamming D-Scan for probes every 2 sec.
Yeah because greater reward should come with the same amount of risk as less reward right?
How about you join a corp that has a low sec presence and then do the missions? Or is that too much effort for a solo mission runner? |
Coolmer
Druzba od vjesala
4
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Posted - 2011.10.21 12:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Ynot Eyob wrote:I totally agree, look a bit odd and i would like to see high sec lvl 5s again.
Im not a fan of incursions, done them a few times but would like to see some challanges i can do solo without having to worrie about getting ganked and spamming D-Scan for probes every 2 sec.
Yeah because greater reward should come with the same amount of risk as less reward right? How about you join a corp that has a low sec presence and then do the missions? Or is that too much effort for a solo mission runner?
In first place it is not reward what I am interested in, it excitement and experience for something new, heavier .... it seams fun to fight against carriers. |
XXSketchxx
Remote Soviet Industries
39
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Posted - 2011.10.21 12:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Coolmer wrote:XXSketchxx wrote:Ynot Eyob wrote:I totally agree, look a bit odd and i would like to see high sec lvl 5s again.
Im not a fan of incursions, done them a few times but would like to see some challanges i can do solo without having to worrie about getting ganked and spamming D-Scan for probes every 2 sec.
Yeah because greater reward should come with the same amount of risk as less reward right? How about you join a corp that has a low sec presence and then do the missions? Or is that too much effort for a solo mission runner? In first place it is not reward what I am interested in, it excitement and experience for something new, heavier .... it seams fun to fight against carriers.
Test server is that way |
Coolmer
Druzba od vjesala
4
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Posted - 2011.10.21 12:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Coolmer wrote:XXSketchxx wrote:Ynot Eyob wrote:I totally agree, look a bit odd and i would like to see high sec lvl 5s again.
Im not a fan of incursions, done them a few times but would like to see some challanges i can do solo without having to worrie about getting ganked and spamming D-Scan for probes every 2 sec.
Yeah because greater reward should come with the same amount of risk as less reward right? How about you join a corp that has a low sec presence and then do the missions? Or is that too much effort for a solo mission runner? In first place it is not reward what I am interested in, it excitement and experience for something new, heavier .... it seams fun to fight against carriers. Test server is that way
But enjoyment and fun is way of successful game that supposed for EVE to be, and your misunderstanding is step back. I still vote for level 5 in Hi-Sec, and many-many new dynamic missions like Dread Scarlet ... |
XXSketchxx
Remote Soviet Industries
39
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Posted - 2011.10.21 12:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Coolmer wrote:
But enjoyment and fun is way of successful game that supposed for EVE to be, and your misunderstanding is step back. I still vote for level 5 in Hi-Sec, and many-many new dynamic missions like Dread Scarlet ...
I don't really understand fully what you're attempting to say here but regardless:
the point is if you want "higher end content" you have to leave high sec. That's the way it works in Eve. Outside of high sec there is a lot more game content. You need only to leave high sec to access it. |
Akuma Tsukai
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.10.21 15:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Missions definitely need work, but not in the sense that the OP is proposing, i.e. missions with greater rewards.
considering that incursions ARE missions with greater reward ... Things looking sad so far. Theres barely any need to go low/0 sec anymore, unless ure explorer. |
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Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
74
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Posted - 2011.10.21 15:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Akuma Tsukai wrote:Missions definitely need work, but not in the sense that the OP is proposing, i.e. missions with greater rewards.
considering that incursions ARE missions with greater reward ... Things looking sad so far. Theres barely any need to go low/0 sec anymore, unless ure explorer.
Is that why power blocks are abandoning their sovs in droves and coming back to highsec?
What we need is move moogoo to highsec. |
Caleidascope
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2011.10.21 20:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
HTFU Life is short and dinner time is chancy Eat desert first! |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
120
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Posted - 2011.10.21 23:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Akuma Tsukai wrote:XXSketchxx wrote: the point is if you want "higher end content" you have to leave high sec. That's the way it works in Eve. Outside of high sec there is a lot more game content. You need only to leave high sec to access it.
considering that incursions ARE missions with greater reward ... Things looking sad so far. Theres barely any need to go low/0 sec anymore, unless ure explorer. Exactly. Incurisons are "higher end content" than L5s and on top of that don't even get standings loss as L5s are mostly faction missions as well.
It's a bit like L4 and L6 missions are in highsec - but L5s are only in lowsec. What's the use? |
Desudes
Pixelmoon The Star League
3
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Posted - 2011.10.21 23:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
Akuma Tsukai wrote:Missions definitely need work, but not in the sense that the OP is proposing, i.e. missions with greater rewards.
considering that incursions ARE missions with greater reward ... Things looking sad so far. Theres barely any need to go low/0 sec anymore, unless ure explorer.
Hi, there is more to EVE then making ISK. Content is not tiered ISK factories.
Just thought someone aught to point that out. FOR THE DESU!!! |
Cambarus
Clearly Compensating The Dark Triad
14
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Posted - 2011.10.21 23:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
One of these activities require teamwork, the other can easily be farmed in a single passive tanked rattler. |
Desudes
Pixelmoon The Star League
3
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Posted - 2011.10.21 23:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:One of these activities require teamwork, the other can easily be farmed in a single passive tanked rattler.
I'd be interested to see solo rattler L5 ISK/hr; I do believe most people use at least 3 ships.
With the dps it would put out it would be utter crap (if it were in a L4, I've never done L5) compared to incursions. FOR THE DESU!!! |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
165
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Posted - 2011.10.22 01:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Coolmer wrote:In first place it is not reward what I am interested in, it excitement and experience for something new, heavier .... it seams fun to fight against carriers. You want excitement, wait for those probes to finish scanning you down and see who comes to visit. More excitement to be had there than in any mission or incursion. |
yumike
Eve of Madness
1
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Posted - 2011.10.22 03:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Coolmer wrote:In first place it is not reward what I am interested in, it excitement and experience for something new, heavier .... it seams fun to fight against carriers. You want excitement, wait for those probes to finish scanning you down and see who comes to visit. More excitement to be had there than in any mission or incursion. edit: before you go off about how I'm some pirate trying to make you play my way, understand that I was and still am a wormhole explorer. Those tense moments of avoiding ganks in w-space were FAR more exciting than PVE could ever hope to offer.
Maybe so, but your avoiding ganks doesn't make you any isk. Your comparing apples to oranges. |
Uriel Chinmay
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.10.22 03:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
There is maybe 2-3 missions you can solo in a reasonable amount of time in a solo rattler.
Takes me 10mins to finish Sansha Acquisition (need to pop a 280k hp structure and clear some tackle) with 3k dps including rage torps (tengu, machariel + torp cnr). Will take 40mins+ with solo rattlers ~600dps.
You'd make more soloing lvl4s for one of those r&d type corps who have a good lp store (not the crummy navy ones we have to put up with for lvl5s). |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
3
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Posted - 2011.10.22 06:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jennifer Starling wrote:Akuma Tsukai wrote:XXSketchxx wrote: the point is if you want "higher end content" you have to leave high sec. That's the way it works in Eve. Outside of high sec there is a lot more game content. You need only to leave high sec to access it.
considering that incursions ARE missions with greater reward ... Things looking sad so far. Theres barely any need to go low/0 sec anymore, unless ure explorer. Exactly. Incurisons are "higher end content" than L5s and on top of that don't even get standings loss as L5s are mostly faction missions as well. It's a bit like L4 and L6 missions are in highsec - but L5s are only in lowsec. What's the use?
It's the winning quote right there. That's what I was lacking the words for. It is alot like level 4's and level 6's are in high sec what's the point of level 5's in low sec only now. |
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Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
3
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Posted - 2011.10.22 06:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
Desudes wrote:Cambarus wrote:One of these activities require teamwork, the other can easily be farmed in a single passive tanked rattler. I'd be interested to see solo rattler L5 ISK/hr; I do believe most people use at least 3 ships. With the dps it would put out it would be utter crap (if it were in a L4, I've never done L5) compared to incursions.
Your both right. Yes you can fully passive fit a level 5 with max skills in a Rattle Snake in high sec. But the down side is your killing so slowly that you would do just as well if not better running level 4's with a dps fit Gunnery ship just blowing down rats fast when it comes down to a isk per houre deal.
Or you could get 2-4 of your budys together and blow down some level 5's and as level 5's get spilt evenly to every one the isk/hr ratio falls some were in the middle of level 4's isk/hr and Incursions isk/hr. Only when you run it with some budys. When you solo level 5's then they come in isk/hr right around and sometimes lower then your avg level 4's. |
Cambarus
Clearly Compensating The Dark Triad
14
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Posted - 2011.10.22 23:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
Desudes wrote:Cambarus wrote:One of these activities require teamwork, the other can easily be farmed in a single passive tanked rattler. I'd be interested to see solo rattler L5 ISK/hr; I do believe most people use at least 3 ships. With the dps it would put out it would be utter crap (if it were in a L4, I've never done L5) compared to incursions. When I tried my hand at level 5s, I found the isk/hour to be higher than lvl 4s, maybe on-par with lower end incursion fleets, and that was with an ishtar. With 2 people I would imagine it would surpass incursion fleets of similar ships.
Not that this is the only issue:
There's no competition in lvl 5s, you've basically got your own instance and only the person who took the mission determines who gets paid for it.
The rats act like mission rats, not like incursion rats. The AI difference, as well as the fact that only a handful of lvl 5 rats scram, whereas often multiple people will be scrammed for the entirety of an incursion site by a good third of the rats, is also a huge factor. Tanking is absurdly easy when the rats stay on the first person to warp in.
The payout difference between lvl 4s and incursions isn't as absurd as people seem to think. A ship getting 100mil/hour in incursions would be making 60-70 in lvl 4s, so how tiny would the difference between lvl 4s and lvl 5s have to be in order to stop lvl 5s from being better for isk than incursions (especially since they can be easily soloed, require only one ship to do any tanking, barely have and scramblers and have no competition)? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
826
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Posted - 2011.10.22 23:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
If it weren't for the inherent PvPness of flying in lowsec, I'd say Gǣincursions are allowed because they're competitive, unlike missionsGǥ, with a sprinkling of the GǣGǪand they require coordination and co-operationGǥ as others have mentioned.
On a slightly more negative note, I'd say that they didn't quite plan for them to be the massive income generators they turnout out to be and/or expected most of the ISK to be sunk into (and counteracted by) the new LP stores. Plan, meet reality and all thatGǪ GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
3
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Posted - 2011.11.03 05:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
Tippia wrote:If it weren't for the inherent PvPness of flying in lowsec, I'd say Gǣincursions are allowed because they're competitive, unlike missionsGǥ, with a sprinkling of the GǣGǪand they require coordination and co-operationGǥ as others have mentioned.
On a slightly more negative note, I'd say that they didn't quite plan for them to be the massive income generators they turnout out to be and/or expected most of the ISK to be sunk into (and counteracted by) the new LP stores. Plan, meet reality and all thatGǪ
Thats true too. But the stores would probly be more of a isk sink if they just dropped or removed tags and just upped the isk some. On the other hand what would the poor boys in FW do if they removed the demand for tags?
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Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
3
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Posted - 2011.11.03 05:56:00 -
[25] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Desudes wrote:Cambarus wrote:One of these activities require teamwork, the other can easily be farmed in a single passive tanked rattler. I'd be interested to see solo rattler L5 ISK/hr; I do believe most people use at least 3 ships. With the dps it would put out it would be utter crap (if it were in a L4, I've never done L5) compared to incursions. When I tried my hand at level 5s, I found the isk/hour to be higher than lvl 4s, maybe on-par with lower end incursion fleets, and that was with an ishtar. With 2 people I would imagine it would surpass incursion fleets of similar ships. Not that this is the only issue: There's no competition in lvl 5s, you've basically got your own instance and only the person who took the mission determines who gets paid for it. The rats act like mission rats, not like incursion rats. The AI difference, as well as the fact that only a handful of lvl 5 rats scram, whereas often multiple people will be scrammed for the entirety of an incursion site by a good third of the rats, is also a huge factor. Tanking is absurdly easy when the rats stay on the first person to warp in. The payout difference between lvl 4s and incursions isn't as absurd as people seem to think. A ship getting 100mil/hour in incursions would be making 60-70 in lvl 4s, so how tiny would the difference between lvl 4s and lvl 5s have to be in order to stop lvl 5s from being better for isk than incursions (especially since they can be easily soloed, require only one ship to do any tanking, barely have and scramblers and have no competition)?
I did level 5's the bountys are the same as the one's in level 4's and I doute that your isk/hr is any higher then level 4's right now do to the state that shop and shop iteams are in. As most of the rewards that make level 5's better then level 4's have little to do with the bountys and more to do with the LP's.
Secondly ishtar will run the sites omost as slowly as the Rattle Snake only saving some time where ship speed is a time saver reather then killing speed. Though I dont personly know how you got around the nuteing towers with the ishtar and keept it in one piece. Congrats on that one. But I bet I could make more in liquid isk per houre in a gunnry based bs running level 4's then you can in a drone based ship of any kind running level 5.
Last but not least level 5's are tied to only a few LP stores were as level 4's can be found for omost every npc corp and there stores and Incurrsions LP's well I'm not going there.
Just saying. |
Tammarr
Trident RMBK
4
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Posted - 2011.11.03 08:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Lvl5s are no longer worth doing with the risk for gank they do have or the rigorous area control you need to invest in and maintain to 'safely' run them. Note: Thats a prolonged team effort with serious risk of losses. Could double their rewards and it starts getting worth the effort compared to incursions. But doubling their current rewards would only mean even more lp to the market, and we all know how much we love lp compared to raw incursion isk eh?
Since I like lowsec, we got a team going at lowsec incursions now and then, quite profitable and not a risk for a quick gank with modest scouting. (Cyno blocked, anything that sneaks into local and into your site and decloaks to scram you for the rest of the wolves will quite simply be trippel or quadwebbed and dpsd till its dirt in short order, tackling cloaky proteus as last contender to no likey ^^)
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Kinroi Alari
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters Important Internet Spaceship League
8
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Posted - 2011.11.03 18:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Coolmer wrote:
But enjoyment and fun is way of successful game that supposed for EVE to be, and your misunderstanding is step back. I still vote for level 5 in Hi-Sec, and many-many new dynamic missions like Dread Scarlet ...
I don't really understand fully what you're attempting to say here but regardless: the point is if you want "higher end content" you have to leave high sec. That's the way it works in Eve. Outside of high sec there is a lot more game content. You need only to leave high sec to access it. EDIT: I will say that new, complex/difficult/twisted missions should definitely be added. The epic arcs were a nice start and some of the new missions I've heard of. I haven't missioned in ages but the addition of level 4 missions that require frigate use (T2/faction necessary) or other weird elements like that is long over due. Also, more epic arcs. Missions definitely need work, but not in the sense that the OP is proposing, i.e. missions with greater rewards.
At first I disagreed with XXSketchxx, but I definitely agree with his post-edit post.
Null sec is a logical progression for players with a lot of free time who like the excitement and challenge of PVP, industry and transport in a high risk, high reward environment. But over the past few years my corp's lost a lot of players because they couldn't couldn't balance null sec FCing and medium length CTAs with the thirty-something responsibilities of a spouse and a couple of kids.
So while I'd like to keep the highest payouts in the evolving, emergent environment of low sec, I also like the idea of challenging missions and other medium length / casual content in high and low sec for subscribers who cannot invest as much time -- and the upgrades XXSketchxx mentions would help retain some of those subscribers.
Then again, what do I know? Some days I'm just happy logging in a low SP alt for 15 minutes and blowing up Quafe NPC transports for giggles and smatterings of trade and PI goods (I think I still have 12k Quafe sitting around somewhere?).
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Cambarus
Clearly Compensating The Dark Triad
26
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Posted - 2011.11.04 01:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
Rip Minner wrote:
I did level 5's the bountys are the same as the one's in level 4's and I doute that your isk/hr is any higher then level 4's right now do to the state that shop and shop iteams are in. As most of the rewards that make level 5's better then level 4's have little to do with the bountys and more to do with the LP's.
If lvl 5s were put into HS, the increase in tags would up the value of LP to the point where you'd be back in the 100mil/hour mark.
Rip Minner wrote: Secondly ishtar will run the sites omost as slowly as the Rattle Snake only saving some time where ship speed is a time saver reather then killing speed. Though I dont personly know how you got around the nuteing towers with the ishtar and keept it in one piece. Congrats on that one. But I bet I could make more in liquid isk per houre in a gunnry based bs running level 4's then you can in a drone based ship of any kind running level 5. .
Ishtar had no cap using mods on it; passive hardeners and a passive shield tank. Not difficult at all.
Lvl 5s pay more than lvl 4s, even if you run lvl 4s in, say, a NM and lvl 5s in an ishtar (I did both) The biggest issue, mind you, is the ease with which the sites can be run.
The main reason I stopped running lvl 5s was that they could literally be run afk, and the only reason to stay at your computer was mashing the dscan. 100mil, or even 30-50, is way too much isk for something that you don;t actually have to be there to do. |
Astald Ohtar
L'AGENCE Yulai Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.11.04 03:40:00 -
[29] - Quote
they need to seed more agents in low sec, not putt them in highsec |
Desudes
Federal Defence Union Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2011.11.04 04:43:00 -
[30] - Quote
Agents in low sec hardly get used, adding more won't help. In EVE PvE and PvP mix like water and oil.
Nerf passive shield tanking and give missions sleeper AI/damage imho. Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu? |
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