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King Rothgar Autocannons Anonymous 34	Posted - 2011.11.04 06:08:00 - [31] - Quote There is a fundamental difference between incursions and lvl5's, incursions require teamwork, lvl5's do not. I can run any of them with only a single client and the ships I run them with do no less than 1k dps. You just can't do that with incursions and even if you could, you wouldn't make any isk for doing so since it penalizes bringing fewer ships than recommended. I do think incursions need their LP rewards lowered some but that's a separate issue from lvl5's. And lvl5 payout is just fine, even with the collapse of LP values I'm still doing very well with them. Probably better than you do with incursions though I won't swear to it since I only ran them a few times early on.
Tenris Anis Schattenengel Clan 0	Posted - 2011.11.04 14:05:00 - [32] - Quote XXSketchxx wrote: [quote=Coolmer] the point is if you want "higher end content" you have to leave high sec. That's the way it works in Eve. Outside of high sec there is a lot more game content. You need only to leave high sec to access it. I call bull. What you describe is not the state of affairs that is, its your wishful thinking. Incursions are already in high sec. They are higher end content than l5s. L5 in high sec would mean doing them without caps btw. Still, buffing scouts in reward and difficulty would be achieve more than l5 in high sec. And while you are at it, make scouts dedicated to small ships. There could be so many dynamics in scouts which make them noob friendly and perfect for small groups. CCP is wasting here imo opportunities for binding more players into their game and strengthen their community. New forum, still no automatic double post merge. CCP Excellence.-á . Playing the game of life means to pvp. Get used to it or become extinct.
Tenris Anis Schattenengel Clan 0	Posted - 2011.11.04 14:10:00 - [33] - Quote Tammarr wrote: Lvl5s are no longer worth doing with the risk for gank they do have or the rigorous area control you need to invest in and maintain to 'safely' run them. Note: Thats a prolonged team effort with serious risk of losses. Could double their rewards and it starts getting worth the effort compared to incursions. But doubling their current rewards would only mean even more lp to the market, and we all know how much we love lp compared to raw incursion isk eh? Just mod some rats in them to give tags. Lots of tags. New forum, still no automatic double post merge. CCP Excellence.-á . Playing the game of life means to pvp. Get used to it or become extinct.
Cambarus Clearly Compensating The Dark Triad 26	Posted - 2011.11.04 18:11:00 - [34] - Quote Desudes wrote: Agents in low sec hardly get used, adding more won't help. In EVE PvE and PvP mix like water and oil. Nerf passive shield tanking and give missions sleeper AI/damage imho. Not at all true. Lowsec may well be perfectly viable if lvl 5 agents were more spread out. Think about it: If most of the agents are in one area/a small number of systems, then people/corps looking to run them end up in the same place, and pirates know exactly where to look. More agents in low would open up the possibility for more people to run lvl 5s without having them crowd together.
Desudes Federal Defence Union Gallente Federation 12	Posted - 2011.11.05 00:13:00 - [35] - Quote Cambarus wrote: Desudes wrote: Agents in low sec hardly get used, adding more won't help. In EVE PvE and PvP mix like water and oil. Nerf passive shield tanking and give missions sleeper AI/damage imho. Not at all true. Lowsec may well be perfectly viable if lvl 5 agents were more spread out. Think about it: If most of the agents are in one area/a small number of systems, then people/corps looking to run them end up in the same place, and pirates know exactly where to look. More agents in low would open up the possibility for more people to run lvl 5s without having them crowd together. A small amount of L5s are done because of where they are placed. Go survey mission runners: "Why don't you do L5s?"; the answer I got was "can't do them in high sec", every single time. You can put a L5 agent in every single low/null sec system and they won't be run worth a damn. Its boring content requiring a high ISK investment for marginally better gains at best, major loss at worst. Why would I risk my 3-400mil Ishtar in L5s for a few extra mil every hour? You're talking about dozens of hours of uninterrupted play to make up a loss. Making more solo/tiny gang content (L5s in high sec) could even justify L4 nerfs, since people would have a real alternative risk/reward-wise. The current jump in content is stuff that can be half AFK'd in a t1 BS (dominix) to requiring 7-8 BS pilots and 2-3 dedicated logistics ships. L5s with sleeper AI, omni damage and possibly npc neut nerf, would need a few pilots with a logi (or maybe small RR BS gang) which would train people to use RR, teamwork and all that jazz before they are risking 2bil fits in Incursions. Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Substantia Nigra NFI industrial Revival Of The Talocan Empire 155	Posted - 2011.11.05 00:35:00 - [36] - Quote Desudes wrote: ... "can't do them in high sec" ... ... boring content requiring a high ISK investment for marginally better gains at best, major loss at worst. Making more solo/tiny gang content ... I spend some of my eve-time running missions. I have never run a lvl5 mission and it's nowhere on my want-to-do list. Why? Much along the lines suggested by Desudes. The balance between the risk and the reward just does not grab my attention. I've spoken to buddies who've run them and it seems to me: 1. I can't easily run them anytime I choose. Sure, I could tank them solo in several of my w-space ships, but it'd be a fairly slow process to clear them. I'd be way better off clearing C4 sites in those ships. 2.The income would not be that much greater than I get from hisec lvl4 missions. 3.Most, if not all, of them are faction focussed and so I'd have greater difficulty maintaining any sort of balanced faction standings. 4.They don't sound like fun. Lvl4 missions, now that I know off-by-heart how to blitz most of them, aren't exactly fun ... but they're a good stable resource for a little isk and to balance / repair standings as needed. Lvl5s don't sound like they'd boost the fun factor much, if at all. 5.if I'm desperate for income I can join some incursions for a few days or sell some w-space stuff. Mind you I don't enjoy incursions much, after the hundredth or so they get kinda tedious. Me? I'd like to see more pirate epic arcs. They are PvE content that encourage less skilled pilots into nullsec by offering something different, decent rewards, and by limiting access to cheaper (affordable-to-lose) ships. While they're not immediate solutions they are getting more ppl into lowsec / nullsec earlier and that is going to benefit those parts fo space in the medium term. They're also giving some immediate benefits by injecting a little more into the Curse and venal economies and giving the local wannabe PvPers more targets to hunt. But hey, that's just me and my own vested interests We can build and sell pretty much every ship. Check my bio for details. Our pirate epic arc completion packages really are very good: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12973&find=unread
Kerfira Kerfira Corp 0	Posted - 2011.11.05 05:35:00 - [37] - Quote Ynot Eyob wrote: Im not a fan of incursions, done them a few times but would like to see some challanges i can do solo without having to worrie about getting ganked and spamming D-Scan for probes every 2 sec. There's an implicit requirement that you, and most other people wanting L5's back have, have, but somehow never want to make public... It's an even bigger requirement for you than the one you state above... You want LOTS OF ISK WITHOUT REAL EFFORT (and a bit of challenge would not be scoffed at)... If you want challenge, there's NOTHING that prevents you from running a L4 in a Caracal. I've done it, and it is CHALLENGE! Apart from a few missions, it is also doable, but make one tiny mistake, and... KABOOM! ...but then, you (and the others) doesn't REALLY want challenge, do you?
Desudes Federal Defence Union Gallente Federation 13	Posted - 2011.11.05 06:03:00 - [38] - Quote Kerfira wrote: Ynot Eyob wrote: Im not a fan of incursions, done them a few times but would like to see some challanges i can do solo without having to worrie about getting ganked and spamming D-Scan for probes every 2 sec. There's an implicit requirement that you, and most other people wanting L5's back have, have, but somehow never want to make public... It's an even bigger requirement for you than the one you state above... You want LOTS OF ISK WITHOUT REAL EFFORT (and a bit of challenge would not be scoffed at)... If you want challenge, there's NOTHING that prevents you from running a L4 in a Caracal. I've done it, and it is CHALLENGE! Apart from a few missions, it is also doable, but make one tiny mistake, and... KABOOM! ...but then, you (and the others) doesn't REALLY want challenge, do you? I just want lots of no effort high reward content so I can roll around naked in all my glorious internet space currency. This is also why I want sleeper AI and dmg in missions, and want passive shield tanking nerfed. Doing missions in undersized ships isn't exciting, its tedious. The AI and general mechanics in missions is so ridiculously simple: Caracal? You can do some L4s in a ******* rifter for gods sakes. Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Rip Minner ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries 6	Posted - 2011.11.05 07:02:00 - [39] - Quote But no realy look at it. Level 5's are in a pvp area but they req you go all out on a pve fit in order to do them. If your going to mission in low sec your much much better off doing FW missions. There much better balanced to there pvp enviorment and the rewards are great as well. I am just saying ether change the level 5 mission to be like FW missions are or just add them back into high sec again. Ether way it will make EVE a better place becouse the content will be used more. I have never gotten my head around the ideal that limiting the use of mmo content is good for the game or its players. And yes the combind conditions of the level 5 mission enviorment and the low sec enviorment limits this content very much. As it results in ether a no win or at best I got away for the mission runnering ship/gang and a I-win or damn the lucky sob got away for the pirat ship/gang. Me personly I just think it would be easyer to add them back into high sec becouse the mission enviorment is already set for high sec. As one thing few to no people care to say is that they totaly wreck your standing with other empires. That right there limits alot of level 4 mission grinders that dont want to pick sides. I use to be like that not wanting to pick sides then I got to the skill level were I could run level 5's and so I picked a side and that lead to also running FW missions in low sec from time to time as well becouse hell my other empire standings are already screwed and the rewards for FW missions are just as good as level 5's and insanly easyer to do and insanly cheaper ships and fits to risk. And in FW I have seen more then a few head out to null npc/null player and WH's. So FW is a gate way for pvp and this other areas just as intented. And high sec level 5's can be a gate way to FW. Just puting my two cents in on this along with some of the roads I have traveled in EVE and why I traveled them.
Rip Minner ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries 6	Posted - 2011.11.05 07:06:00 - [40] - Quote double post

Widemouth Deepthroat Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 3	Posted - 2011.11.05 10:20:00 - [41] - Quote I have no problem making ~5mil LP a month running lvl5s. I triple box. They aren't a true solo isk maker...mainly because with such low dps it takes you forever to clear a mission which means you are going to get ganked. I finish most mission in less than 15mins, I turn down ones I know I can't. With 3 characters able to use 3 agents with 9+ faction standing I never have any downtime due to decline timer. By the time people have noticed me and narrowed me down most of the time I'm done and just chill at 100km off the warp in beacon and shoot them a couple times and warp off :D Yes you can't do mission at Ammamake or Tama unless maybe you're in some big blob or au/nz timezone but quieter area with few pirate it is no problem from my experience. Where I live there is I think 2 other guys who farm lvl5s like myself. We have noobs always come in their rattlers and ishtars. I pop these dudes :D In the quiet time I run mission myself. Since the unprobeable nerf I've lost 2 x t1 battleship while doing lvl5s, 1 to pvp and 1 to pve. Takes me less than half an hour to pay for a new rigged and fitted bs. I use tengu to tank...I can say I never going to lose that unless I screw up very badly somehow (drunk asleep at keyboard, house on fire etc). Even if I lose it would be paid for in a 3-4 hours (fit is kind of expensive) and it has paid for itself many many times over. Anyway,, if they add more agent in area away from high->low and low->null entry point then I'm sure even more people can do even if it is just pirates/fw dudes living in the deeper low sec.
Dennmoth Ferdier The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2011.11.05 12:07:00 - [42] - Quote Desudes wrote: Cambarus wrote: One of these activities require teamwork, the other can easily be farmed in a single passive tanked rattler. I'd be interested to see solo rattler L5 ISK/hr; I do believe most people use at least 3 ships. With the dps it would put out it would be utter crap (if it were in a L4, I've never done L5) compared to incursions. thing was you could do them afk in a reasonable amount of time, i used to have the computer running during the day and just come back now and again to check that i was still alive hotkeys and sellotape ftw
Dennmoth Ferdier The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2011.11.05 12:10:00 - [43] - Quote for the low sec 5s i used either a loki booster with a tengu or a tengu tanker and sb dps. Yes an sb, hehehe.
laysha GONE RETARD BACK LATER Rise - Against 0	Posted - 2011.11.06 00:15:00 - [44] - Quote Rip Minner wrote: Thats true too. But the stores would probly be more of a isk sink if they just dropped or removed tags and just upped the isk some. On the other hand what would the poor boys in FW do if they removed the demand for tags? I doubt anyone doing FW relies on tags for income, if they do then they're doing it wrong. On a good day when i used to do FW missions i would make anywhere from 200k to 280k in as little as 90 min relatively undisturbed (less before agent quality was removed but the value of LP items where higher then so it evened out) just blitzing them in a bomber. The money is in the LP not tags
Rip Minner ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries 7	Posted - 2011.11.06 07:48:00 - [45] - Quote laysha wrote: Rip Minner wrote: Thats true too. But the stores would probly be more of a isk sink if they just dropped or removed tags and just upped the isk some. On the other hand what would the poor boys in FW do if they removed the demand for tags? I doubt anyone doing FW relies on tags for income, if they do then they're doing it wrong. On a good day when i used to do FW missions i would make anywhere from 200k to 280k in as little as 90 min relatively undisturbed (less before agent quality was removed but the value of LP items where higher then so it evened out) just blitzing them in a bomber. The money is in the LP not tags Not trying to burst your bubble but most of the LP stores is tied to tages omost as much as to LP? Kind of need them tages too don't ya? Edit: And yes I know some iteams dont need tags for them. But the overwelming majority of iteams do.
laysha GONE RETARD BACK LATER Rise - Against 0	Posted - 2011.11.06 08:39:00 - [46] - Quote Rip Minner wrote: laysha wrote: Rip Minner wrote: Thats true too. But the stores would probly be more of a isk sink if they just dropped or removed tags and just upped the isk some. On the other hand what would the poor boys in FW do if they removed the demand for tags? I doubt anyone doing FW relies on tags for income, if they do then they're doing it wrong. On a good day when i used to do FW missions i would make anywhere from 200k to 280k in as little as 90 min relatively undisturbed (less before agent quality was removed but the value of LP items where higher then so it evened out) just blitzing them in a bomber. The money is in the LP not tags Not trying to burst your bubble but most of the LP stores is tied to tages omost as much as to LP? Kind of need them tages too don't ya? Edit: And yes I know some iteams dont need tags for them. But the overwelming majority of iteams do. And i'm telling you the tags on the marked more then likely don't come from FW cause it's a complete waste of time trying to farm them with the LP payout on those missions. It's way easier, less risky and more profitable to just blitz, get the LP and buy the tags. In other words, the FW people will do just fine if you remove the demand for tags
Rip Minner ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries 10	Posted - 2011.11.06 10:51:00 - [47] - Quote laysha wrote: Rip Minner wrote: laysha wrote: Rip Minner wrote: Thats true too. But the stores would probly be more of a isk sink if they just dropped or removed tags and just upped the isk some. On the other hand what would the poor boys in FW do if they removed the demand for tags? I doubt anyone doing FW relies on tags for income, if they do then they're doing it wrong. On a good day when i used to do FW missions i would make anywhere from 200k to 280k in as little as 90 min relatively undisturbed (less before agent quality was removed but the value of LP items where higher then so it evened out) just blitzing them in a bomber. The money is in the LP not tags Not trying to burst your bubble but most of the LP stores is tied to tages omost as much as to LP? Kind of need them tages too don't ya? Edit: And yes I know some iteams dont need tags for them. But the overwelming majority of iteams do. And i'm telling you the tags on the marked more then likely don't come from FW cause it's a complete waste of time trying to farm them with the LP payout on those missions. It's way easier, less risky and more profitable to just blitz, get the LP and buy the tags. In other words, the FW people will do just fine if you remove the demand for tags Ya your right I see what your saying now. I do know some FW people that go after the tags to sale on the open market becouse there geting kind of high just right now too though. Or mybe your FW tags are not that high in price just at the moment ether. But ya I'm all for droping tages at least for using them for LP stores. Keep the tags and have a npc buy them or something.
Tenris Anis Schattenengel Clan 1	Posted - 2011.11.07 07:20:00 - [48] - Quote laysha wrote: And i'm telling you the tags on the marked more then likely don't come from FW cause it's a complete waste of time trying to farm them with the LP payout on those missions. It's way easier, less risky and more profitable to just blitz, get the LP and buy the tags. In other words, the FW people will do just fine if you remove the demand for tags While you are right, the same applies to L4 missions too. So who es actually farming all those tags we are buying? Guess its those who are doing more risky and less profitable missions and just sell those tags. New forum, still no automatic double post merge. CCP Excellence.-á . Playing the game of life means to pvp. Get used to it or become extinct.
giglio Lost Misanthropes 0	Posted - 2012.01.02 17:48:00 - [49] - Quote I hope level 5 missions will be back in high sec.
Mechael Team Pizza Viro Mors Non Est 34	Posted - 2012.01.02 22:54:00 - [50] - Quote Move level 3, 4, and 5 missions, as well as incursions, and the problem is not only solved, the game is much better for it. Getting filthy rich in the noob zone shouldn't be an option (so while you're at it, do something to develop a solid industry and economy outside of highsec as well.) Even from an immersion point of view, level 3's and up at least don't make sense if they're in highsec. It's high security space for crying out loud, what are all those enemy battleships doing there? Then again, expecting balance in this game after all these years is kind of a joke. Hopefully the new lead producer does a good job of things. I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me.

Goose99 Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 613	Posted - 2012.01.02 23:09:00 - [51] - Quote If lvl5s were changed to be like FW missions, there would be no issue. As is, only tards would fly fat insta-scannable pve boats that's scrammed, permaneuted, pummeled by rats and stay there for an hour per mission in lowsec.
Dimitryy Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild 11	Posted - 2012.01.03 03:10:00 - [52] - Quote Incursions are a group activity, lvl 5s are generally not. When lvl 5s were in highsec, bears would just use super pimped ships and/or an alt and solo them. The idea was to add real group content to all parts of the game with incursions, not just 'me and my alts'.
Pi-zwei one Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.01.03 07:38:00 - [53] - Quote Reduce LP by half for high-sec Lv 5's = win.
VIP Ares BALKAN EXPRESS 23	Posted - 2012.01.03 08:54:00 - [54] - Quote Remove incursions from high sec 4tw.


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