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Well, there goes 4b isk down the drain!

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Joe	Posted - 2005.10.30 14:45:00 - [31] Originally by: pedantic guy Dreads were designed to be anti-battleship platforms out of siege mode chief. The whole "Siege weapon" argument only applies to dreads in, what was that thing called again? oh yes, "siege mode", using the "siege module". Dreads outside of "Siege mode" are not "siege weapons". It's all right there in the language folks. No a dread doesn't need to be in 'seige mode' to be a 'seige weapon', just as an APOC doesn't need to be in battle, in order to be called a Battleship. see? It's 'all right there in the language folks'. If a dread isn't in seige mode it, it should be docked, simple as that. there is no fabled quote that will backup any of the rediculous claims in here of 'Dreads were designed to be anti-battleship platforms'. Its a seige weapon. If its not seiged, doing its job of attacking POS, your missusing it. This entire thread is waste of time, whiners would be better off writing useless threads in the ships forum... perhaps something like 'My Barge has awsome locking times, and i can insta ecm frigates in it...but i cant destroy them with drones? why cant i use turrets?? have i just wasted 4 bil!!! devs said they would pwn in non-mining mode wtf!!!1!, its only a mining ship if its got a miner on it!!, your all being pedantic, wah wah (oh and something piontless about dps)'
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.10.30 14:49:00 - [32] "OMFG, still missing the piont of a SEIGE WEAPON." It's perfectly possible to take down even large POS with battleships, and minimal or no losses. Dreadnaughts as they currently are don't make it any simpler, faster or cheaper. What's the point of that siege weapon, again..?
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.10.30 14:56:00 - [33] Originally by: j0sephine "OMFG, still missing the piont of a SEIGE WEAPON." It's perfectly possible to take down even large POS with battleships, and minimal or no losses. Dreadnaughts as they currently are don't make it any simpler, faster or cheaper. What's the point of that siege weapon, again..? Hmm, you know better then that J0. A Large tower with 3 guns yes, but fit a couple large and a dozen medium turrets on a large tower and I want to see your remote rep trick BS gang do it without losing a crapload of them due to semi- simultanious hits. Dreads are very much needed and already could be usefull in killing well defended large towers. For fleet action, I'd think twice about bringing them out just yet. Altho someone told me target painters seem to help alot. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Joe	Posted - 2005.10.30 14:58:00 - [34] Originally by: j0sephine "OMFG, still missing the piont of a SEIGE WEAPON." It's perfectly possible to take down even large POS with battleships, and minimal or no losses. Dreadnaughts as they currently are don't make it any simpler, faster or cheaper. What's the point of that siege weapon, again..? What's the piont of comparing 2 ships with different roles again..? Your comments on dreads, BS and POS are all valid j0sephine, but there are people in this thread, such as the OP who have completely missed the piont, and see fit to whine becuase of a long lost (imaginary) dev quote that Dreads were to be anti-bs platforms. or to compare the dps of a dread and battleship (without comparing the amount of damage they can soak up), its just rediculous. (on a sidenote J0 i completely agree with you, and in their current state theres nothing a fleet of bs cant do to a pos that a dread can do, and a fleet is allways superiour, becuase of its tactical flexibility)
deathfighter	Posted - 2005.10.30 15:12:00 - [35] Originally by: Joe OMFG, still missing the piont of a SEIGE WEAPON. Dude the thing is that even with the 500% boost wich btw is only 5x a dread is not going to be making much more dmg VS anything more than 2-3 tempests do and that is what we are trying to point out. You should read the whole post before replying imo
deathfighter	Posted - 2005.10.30 15:32:00 - [36] "Titan Yes, you read right. T-I-T-A-N. Titan. I'm wetting my pants just writing it. Wait while I do the happy Titan dance ... there. Planned to be as close to a mobile station as can be, it's bigger than huge and will feature the Jumpdrive propulsion. It's _not_ the most uber combat ship ever. If you are looking for combat abilities, you should check out the Dreadnought." By Oveur Combat means damage and tanking. combat doesn't mean only killing stations. Combat means Just combat. and i dont like the idea of not being able to kill a well tanked apoc who's been scrambled webed by my friends. Death-
Joe	Posted - 2005.10.30 15:32:00 - [37] Originally by: deathfighter Originally by: Joe OMFG, still missing the piont of a SEIGE WEAPON. Dude the thing is that even with the 500% boost wich btw is only 5x a dread is not going to be making much more dmg VS anything more than 2-3 tempests do and that is what we are trying to point out. You should read the whole post before replying imo You should try reading my whole posts too (even if they're are a big jumble) Dreads are about soaking up damage, not putting it out. nuf sed.
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.10.30 15:33:00 - [38] Did you try shooting a POS with it? thats what they are for afterall. Real men, play Rugby
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.30 15:53:00 - [39] I did some calcs, and the dreads should be able to sustain a long range battery beating of a large tower long enough unless you plan on attacking the POS in groups of less than 5. The key is to bring enough dreads that the POS doesn't target a single person at a time, but spread out the damage. Standing-exploiting will make quick work of any fleet, dread or not, however. Siege Modules work immidiatly, by the way. You just can't warp until it's finished the cycle. P.S. I wonder if they've fixed the standing exploit or not. I.e. I wonder if they've fixed it so that the people owning the POS actually has to move out and engage the enemy to defend the POS. Don't fight in Jita. That system is bugged to hell and back. The most unusual things can happen there.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.10.30 15:57:00 - [40] "A Large tower with 3 guns yes, but fit a couple large and a dozen medium turrets on a large tower and I want to see your remote rep trick BS gang do it without losing a crapload of them due to semi- simultanious hits." Ohh, ok that's a valid point now. There just doesn't seem to be many of bases set up like that, but aye, can see how with station configured for pure defense (to secure the sovereignty or whatever) you'd need these. (although remains to be seen how the defense improvement stuff will affect that o.O
Boonaki	Posted - 2005.10.30 16:18:00 - [41] I know I got tagged by a moros for 2k a shot. Dropped my scorp in 2 rounds of attacks. You can use siege mode on battleships with 2 35k webs. Fear the Ibis of doom.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.30 16:18:00 - [42] Originally by: j0sephine "A Large tower with 3 guns yes, but fit a couple large and a dozen medium turrets on a large tower and I want to see your remote rep trick BS gang do it without losing a crapload of them due to semi- simultanious hits." Ohh, ok that's a valid point now. There just doesn't seem to be many of bases set up like that, but aye, can see how with station configured for pure defense (to secure the sovereignty or whatever) you'd need these. (although remains to be seen how the defense improvement stuff will affect that o.O Dreads remove a lot of time needed to kill a POS. You need to count it per player instead of per million. The real problem is that destroying a POS is NOT costly for the corp/alliance that lost it to merit fleets of 2 billion ISK ships to destroy them. I can't think of a silly enough comparison, but let's pull this one: it's like you'd need 10+ battleships to take down a battlecruiser. Don't fight in Jita. That system is bugged to hell and back. The most unusual things can happen there.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.30 17:11:00 - [43] Dreads are utterly pointless thanks to the overpowered POS guns. It's STILL easier to just lock down the ice belts and strike at indys. Sure, it'll take a while, but they'll lose the ability to keep them all fueled sooner or later. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Xiliath	Posted - 2005.10.30 17:26:00 - [44] Edited by: Xiliath on 30/10/2005 17:28:20 Have you tried target painting your targets so that it's sig radius is closer to yours or your weapons? And also you said you could only hold enough strontium for 50 min, well you most likely will not even be able to hold a tank close to that long, especially if your being attacked by a large fleed or pos.
Wrayeth	Posted - 2005.10.30 17:30:00 - [45] I agree with the others who have said that a dreadnought having a damage output equal to a cruiser vs. battleships in normal mode is a travesty - anyone who spends the time and ISK on one of these things should be significantly more effective than that. -Wrayeth
Diana Merris	Posted - 2005.10.30 18:23:00 - [46] The Dev post about their anti-BS capabilities is here. The appropriate passage says: Then we have the new Capital ships. One of them, the Dreadnought, features the Jumpdrive. Yes, the jumpdrive. It's probably going to be far overpowered and all that, so expect it to be heavily pre-nerfed. This only leads to more joyful occasions where we are able to un-nerf it later on :) It's main special capability is the siege mode to attack structures of any kind. In this mode it won't be useful for anything else than shooting structures - and I mean not for anything else. When not in siege mode it serves as quite an adequate anti-battleship machine, having the firepower of a couple itself and the defenses a bit more than a couple. Oh, we do have a nice picture of the new Amarr Dreadnought available. It's ... brutal looking isn't it? (Click on it) I bolded the appropriate part. The problem with citadel torps is that the explosion velocity is only 125m/s wich is slower then a BS even before any skills are applied while a regular torp has a 250m/s EV which is faster than the base speed of any cruiser. Citadel torps need an explosion velocity of at least 150m/s to match the relative effectiveness of regular torps against smaller targets. Halving the EV doesn't work because BS are are more than half as fast as cruisers, it doesn't scale lineraly. Another of the factors which makes Dreads seem weak is that when moving up from frigates to cruisers and cruisers to battleships you get more high slots for weapons and more mid/low slots for extra boosts. Dreads on the other hand have less weapon slots and only one more mid/low. The weapons all got their damage mod doubled making them effectively 2 weapons each but 3 x 2 is only 6 not 7 or 8 that you find on a BS. Battleships have 11 mid/low slots and dreads have 12, except the Naglfar which has 11 mid/low (same as a BS) and 4 weapons in a typhoon layout. The other dreads then have the equivelent of 6 main weapons but no secondaries.
Foomanshoe	Posted - 2005.10.30 18:33:00 - [47] Give the dreads 8 highs and 8 weapon mounts and dreads are suddenly useful. _______________________________________________
Tar om	Posted - 2005.10.30 18:53:00 - [48] Originally by: Joe Quote: I feel really bad for a Phoenix pilot, if there are any... 3 launchers and a seige mode fitted results in about 55 DPS vs a battleship. OMFG, still missing the piont of a SEIGE WEAPON. OMFG still missing the point that its no good as a seige weapon either -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net "The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions."
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.30 18:58:00 - [49] Originally by: Foomanshoe Give the dreads 8 highs and 8 weapon mounts and dreads are suddenly useful. Sure, and then it becomes "either you have a dread or you can't compete ever" "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Baun	Posted - 2005.10.30 19:00:00 - [50] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi In all honesty...Dreads seem pretty pointless about now. Gimme my tech 2 geddon and we can go Dread popping. Well, they can tank good so it'll take many of those to take down a well tanked dread At peak a Moros can tank Concord in Yulai Concord + sentries do around 4000dps after resists so that indeed is a lot of damage A Moros might ;p Well, the dread wont kill me, so its just a matter of time. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.10.30 20:55:00 - [51] I think Dreads need more weapons slots. Not more fittings however. But if any ship needs to be able to fit smaller weapons, its a Dread. ~Captain Cutie, HFS Event Horizon Biomass fears me. Sovereignty 2.0
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2005.10.30 21:58:00 - [52] The moros is pretty much an anti-BS ship, 35 heavy drones would creme a BS unles it has a smartbomb. But yes, Dread's are 'teh sux' right now it seems. Maybe they need a captial smartbomb... 1k dmg, 7.5km range?
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.30 21:58:00 - [53] Um That's absolutely THE LAST thing which dreads should have the freedom to do. Dreads should NOT be able to touch anything under a BS in size. Ever. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.10.30 22:00:00 - [54] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia 35 heavy drones would creme a BS unles it has a smartbomb. or a cruiser or a webbed frigate -- This Zig. For great justice!
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.10.30 22:03:00 - [55] Originally by: Maya Rkell Um That's absolutely THE LAST thing which dreads should have the freedom to do. Dreads should NOT be able to touch anything under a BS in size. Ever. So get rid of the drones. Frankly I find your statement laughable. ~Captain Cutie, HFS Event Horizon Biomass fears me. Sovereignty 2.0
ArcticWolf	Posted - 2005.10.30 22:28:00 - [56] Originally by: Diana Merris The Dev post about their anti-BS capabilities is here. The appropriate passage says: Then we have the new Capital ships. One of them, the Dreadnought, features the Jumpdrive. Yes, the jumpdrive. It's probably going to be far overpowered and all that, so expect it to be heavily pre-nerfed. This only leads to more joyful occasions where we are able to un-nerf it later on :) It's main special capability is the siege mode to attack structures of any kind. In this mode it won't be useful for anything else than shooting structures - and I mean not for anything else. When not in siege mode it serves as quite an adequate anti-battleship machine, having the firepower of a couple itself and the defenses a bit more than a couple. Oh, we do have a nice picture of the new Amarr Dreadnought available. It's ... brutal looking isn't it? (Click on it) I bolded the appropriate part. The problem with citadel torps is that the explosion velocity is only 125m/s wich is slower then a BS even before any skills are applied while a regular torp has a 250m/s EV which is faster than the base speed of any cruiser. Citadel torps need an explosion velocity of at least 150m/s to match the relative effectiveness of regular torps against smaller targets. Halving the EV doesn't work because BS are are more than half as fast as cruisers, it doesn't scale lineraly. Another of the factors which makes Dreads seem weak is that when moving up from frigates to cruisers and cruisers to battleships you get more high slots for weapons and more mid/low slots for extra boosts. Dreads on the other hand have less weapon slots and only one more mid/low. The weapons all got their damage mod doubled making them effectively 2 weapons each but 3 x 2 is only 6 not 7 or 8 that you find on a BS. Battleships have 11 mid/low slots and dreads have 12, except the Naglfar which has 11 mid/low (same as a BS) and 4 weapons in a typhoon layout. The other dreads then have the equivelent of 6 main weapons but no secondaries. Thank you for finding one of the dev blogs for me. This as how dreads were oringally designed, and tested on the test server, now they seem to have been changed to useless liability in normal mode and mediocre siege platform in seige mode... ugghh Time to go jump off a building.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.30 22:37:00 - [57] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Maya Rkell Um That's absolutely THE LAST thing which dreads should have the freedom to do. Dreads should NOT be able to touch anything under a BS in size. Ever. So get rid of the drones. Frankly I find your statement laughable. Frankly I find your statment arrogant to the extreme, as per usual you're refusing to THINK about the consequences of your statements. If a dread can fit 8 BS guns, then you've suddenly made them the core of the fleet rather than BS. Given their costs, it's going to lead to a far smaller number of players in 0.0 PvP. 3 of the Dreads have no more drones than the average BS. The other, well, I disagree with the bonus, yes. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
ArcticWolf	Posted - 2005.10.30 22:55:00 - [58] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Maya Rkell Um That's absolutely THE LAST thing which dreads should have the freedom to do. Dreads should NOT be able to touch anything under a BS in size. Ever. So get rid of the drones. Frankly I find your statement laughable. Frankly I find your statment arrogant to the extreme, as per usual you're refusing to THINK about the consequences of your statements. If a dread can fit 8 BS guns, then you've suddenly made them the core of the fleet rather than BS. Given their costs, it's going to lead to a far smaller number of players in 0.0 PvP. 3 of the Dreads have no more drones than the average BS. The other, well, I disagree with the bonus, yes. Yeah, alot of people say that moros is the best, while being quite good, if i knew before hand i was going up against one, which should be VERY obvious, they arent too stealthy lol, i would counter the drones easily. Just get a geddon with 4 smartbombs, doesnt even need the other slots, maybe cores, but whatever. Get a covertops to place you right ontop of the dread and when he deploys drones warp in... it might not always work, but improvise and im sure you can deal with the drones.
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2005.10.30 23:05:00 - [59] I asked the very same thing to TomB face to face at the fanfest during the PVP round table and his answer was basically, they are performing as they are intended. The thing is, they are not only anti-POS, they are anti-capital ship. That enemy titan the other fleet has is gonna tank like a *****, only an extremely large BS fleet or, and heres the part, 5-10 dreads in siege mode. As an anti-BS weapon they all suck, bar the moros, which is capable of performing that role due to its large drone bay + drone control. The rest are meh at best. But they rock at killing POS. Taking out a large tower that is well defended is next to impossible with a BS fleet but stick 6-8 dreads there and you stand a decent chance of taking it out without losing anything Dreads = anti-POS but more importantly for the future when capital ships become more common in fleet combat, they are anti-capital ships. Its this reason they suck outside of siege mode My Latest Vid: Linky
Felxia	Posted - 2005.10.30 23:24:00 - [60] Don't wanan start anything but this isn't jsut about the dreads. 5 vs. Red? Pos wars? Everyone complaining about how hard it is to take down pos's, yes it it is easier to put one up than to take one down, I think ccp put dreads to balance that, to be able to take down a pos. I don't know how dreads work but I'm pretty sure ccp wanted them as anti-pos guns. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I look at you with pity...

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