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Apertotes	Posted - 2005.10.31 13:36:00 - [1] hi, i am quite new into the game (only 4 months, most of them on learning skills) first of all, i want to say that i love the skill and real-time advance system. i think it is one of the best features of the game. so, would it hurt too much to make it a litle bit faster? i am not talking about more learning skills (please, no!!), or about new characters getting advanced learning skills to level 4, or 5 million of free skill points. i am just talking about a general increase on the rate we learn skills. now i want to turn my character into a miner. i want to go for the covetor. for this i need industry 5, mining 4, astrogeology 5, science 4 and mining barge 5. that would take me 74 days of training. would it be that bad that it only took 50 days? or 40? some time ago dreadnoughts were brought into the game. i dont know how much training time it would take to be able to fly one, for a pilot who is already flying BS, but would it be bad to cut the time in half? right now there are skills as to train for 22 years (at least that is what EVE Character manager says). i know we need to specialice, but there are far too many skills as to even specialice, and i am sure that the devs will introduce more skills as the game goes on. maybe more experienced players say that it is not fair, that they had to wait months to train for a BS... yes, i know, but wouldnt you like to train faster for anything from now on? maybe the devs think "skill training is real time. time is money. more training, more time, more money". well, it is true, but i dont think any player will get to the point of not having anything more to train. i really doubt it (22 years!!! and not counting new ships on Red Moon Rising) anyway, i love this game, i think it is almost perfect, i dont mind training for a long time, it also adds to the feeling of satisfaction when you eventually finish with that f***ing rank 5 skill. but i think it wouldn't hurt a general increase on training speed.
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2005.10.31 13:59:00 - [2] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 31/10/2005 14:00:45 Training time is fine as it is. You'd be surprised how fast you get to the point where you don't need to train anything more to be reasonably efficient at what you do. Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori
Flipper slipper	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:01:00 - [3] Im a middle aged player (1 year 9 months in the game and approx 28 mill sp's). I have to say that Apertotes has a point, new players take too long to catch up... Especially if they do the "right" thing and start with getting learning skills to lvl 5. I realize that a multitude of problems could come from i.e. starting out with 5 mill sp's to distribute and that its not possible to do it this way. My suggestion would be to have all new chars spawn with basic learning skills at lvl 4 or even 5, that way they get the booring stuff out of the way and can focus on "real" skills more or less right off the bat. I actually also agree that Dreads have ridiculess skill requirements.. I had all prereq's except Jump Drive Operation lvl 5.. and so far i spent ALL my training time on dreads since July... and i still have over a month to go before all relevant dread skills are at lvl 4... thats too much if you ask me. posted with an alt to avoid blowing my cover as a Dread pilot :)
Apertotes	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:09:00 - [4] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 31/10/2005 14:00:45 You'd be surprised how fast you get to the point where you don't need to train anything more to be reasonably efficient at what you do. well, i dont think so. it'll be 70 days till i can get a covetro, and then i will have to train for modulated strip miners 2, and then i will have to start learning the specific ore refining skills... that is about 700 days of learning, almost 2 full years. but before then, new mining barges tech 2 will be introduced, and i am sure they will have huge skill requirements. and after that, i could train for a transport ship to haul my cargo, and trade skills to be able to sell the ore more effectively. no, i dont think i will run out of skills to be efficient
Apertotes	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:12:00 - [5] Originally by: Flipper slipper I actually also agree that Dreads have ridiculess skill requirements.. I had all prereq's except Jump Drive Operation lvl 5.. and so far i spent ALL my training time on dreads since July... and i still have over a month to go before all relevant dread skills are at lvl 4... thats too much if you ask me. posted with an alt to avoid blowing my cover as a Dread pilot :) that is my point. 4 months already, and still one more month to go. i dont think it would hurt anybody if you (and everybody) could do it in 2 or 3 months. i think it is still a loooooong time.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:26:00 - [6] If you want to do it faster, get implants or train up the 11 learning skills. I personally haven't found myself "waiting for a skill" since my first week. - Proud member of the [23]. Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
Slink Grinsdikild	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:39:00 - [7] Just train up for whatever ships/guns/modules you want to use before you dedicate long amounts of time into learning. That way you won't be in the doldrums for long periods of time. For ex. i'm leaving my basic learning skills at IV until I finish training for a Jaguar, after which i'll take everything to V.
Psych0	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:41:00 - [8] Edited by: Psych0 on 31/10/2005 14:42:09 I would love to train alittle faster, for a long time i have only been changing skill once a month, this both have a good side and bad side. Good: I dont have to switch skill all the time. Bad: Im feeling im not getting anywhere :). But i would like new skills rather then a general increase. Like: Adv Learning (2% pr lvl, Req Learning, Basic and Adv at lvl 5) 5x Elite ((1 pr attrib)+1 pr lvl, Req Adv learning lvl 5) Give the skils a rather high rank. That should boost learning and the high rank should insure that if ppl want them they have to really train for them :).
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:46:00 - [9] Elite learning skills = more "have to have" skills that people will be forced to grind. Please no. - Proud member of the [23]. Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
Psych0	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:49:00 - [10] Originally by: Dark Shikari Elite learning skills = more "have to have" skills that people will be forced to grind. Please no. Well another solution could be to add higher imps like +7/+10 and make imp drop increase. So they dont get to exspensive.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Psych0 Edited by: Psych0 on 31/10/2005 14:49:35 Edited by: Psych0 on 31/10/2005 14:49:16 Originally by: Dark Shikari Elite learning skills = more "have to have" skills that people will be forced to grind. Please no. Well another solution could be to add higher imps like +7/+10 and increase imp drop. So they dont get to exspensive. Well there are two more levels of implant left. But they're always going to be expensive. - Proud member of the [23]. Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
Psych0	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:55:00 - [12] Edited by: Psych0 on 31/10/2005 14:55:20 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Psych0 Edited by: Psych0 on 31/10/2005 14:49:35 Edited by: Psych0 on 31/10/2005 14:49:16 Originally by: Dark Shikari Elite learning skills = more "have to have" skills that people will be forced to grind. Please no. Well another solution could be to add higher imps like +7/+10 and increase imp drop. So they dont get to exspensive. Well there are two more levels of implant left. But they're always going to be expensive. I dont mind exspensive. Make it a choose. if ppl want to risk it. But lookin at current price lvl what is a +5 going for 400-700 mil ?. Now what would a +10 not go for then 1.5B ?. And if you have 4 thats 6B in youre head.. that is to much could buy 2 dreads for that. :) but increase the drops so perhaps a +10 would be in the 500 mil area. They will increase you learning rate but with a full set youre risking 2.5B.
Apertotes	Posted - 2005.10.31 17:34:00 - [13] well, i see that nobody yet has said why it wouldn't be good to increase the general pace of training. skills, implants... no, they dont work. when you have 24 perception, a +3 perception implant doesnt add that much, and it is very expensive for people like me. i got 1'5 million isk on my wallet, i cant even buy some of the +1 implants. and not only that, if i get podded, i loose them. skills... again no, it is a time sink. i already wasted 3 months on learning and advanced learning skills. i think it is enough. i just want somebody to tell why not a general increase in the rate of learning new skills. there are far too many skills as to learn them all. and there are new skills planed for quite soon. new drones skills, new mining skills, new leadership skills, new spaceship command skills. what would be wrong on making learning new skills twice as fast as it is now? will someone post a valid reason instead of just saying "no"?
Nemesis I	Posted - 2005.10.31 17:44:00 - [14] Making learning quicker = less diversity You also have to remember that alot of us old sods have wasted training so gaps arnt always as big as you think they are. Support cruiser anyone? Me Id like a 50% reduction reuse system - take 1M skill points on rubbish skills and transfer 500k to new skills lose 500k.
Oosel	Posted - 2005.10.31 17:44:00 - [15] look at it from ccp's point of view.....they want you to take a fair amount of time to train up it keeps you paying longer. as much as you play it for fun they are a business and need to make money
Ordais	Posted - 2005.10.31 18:28:00 - [16] the best a new player can do today is using 2 accounts...and learning one for fighting...one for economy (mining or production or whatever). and its going worse and worse...new ships, new drone skills, new missile skills...more and more skills for doing the same job are coming into this game...for newbies its getting damn hard.
Kurren	Posted - 2005.10.31 18:47:00 - [17] It's kind of a redundan point... 70 days is only a little over 3 months... personally, I do find some of the training times rediculous coughBS lvl 5cough but it's that way because if you want these advantages over players, you have to take the time to get them. And if you increase the training time for EVERYBODY... you still won't ever catch up... and it would probably on dwindle the time down to 60/65 days. You have to prioritize. Yes, it's good to get your learning skills up, but at the same time, your ship needs to be upgraded... you need to be doing missions and such... train other things... Get your basics down, then specialize. You need to shoot before you can win a fight... you need a ship with a nice cargo bay before you can haul... Get what you need in the short run first then go for long run... its all how you plan it... I have a friend who's been playing for 2 months now and can reseach most of our BPs to at least ME100... it can be done... ************************************************ I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist...
Apertotes	Posted - 2005.10.31 19:44:00 - [18] Originally by: Nemesis I You also have to remember that alot of us old sods have wasted training so gaps arnt always as big as you think they are. but i am not talking about gaps. i find it wonderful that experienced players are better than new players. i think it is only fair. even more, i think it is one of EVE's biggest advantages. i dont want to catch up on people that have been playing 2 years more than i have been. i just want everything to go a little bit faster, well, quite faster.
Apertotes	Posted - 2005.10.31 19:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Oosel look at it from ccp's point of view.....they want you to take a fair amount of time to train up it keeps you paying longer. as much as you play it for fun they are a business and need to make money yes, i also stated that point on the opening post, but i refuse to believe that is the reason. anyway, i dont know a single player that has run out of skills to learn, and the devs will always be introducing more and more skills, so they will get their monthly pay anyway.
Apertotes	Posted - 2005.10.31 19:49:00 - [20] Originally by: Ordais the best a new player can do today is using 2 accounts...and learning one for fighting...one for economy (mining or production or whatever). and its going worse and worse...new ships, new drone skills, new missile skills...more and more skills for doing the same job are coming into this game...for newbies its getting damn hard. well, not hard, but slow, long, and sometimes the waiting time gets boring
Hohenheim OfLight	Posted - 2005.10.31 19:50:00 - [21] traning time and the precs do seem to be getting a bit nuts there days, and players on veiw the game from the perception of 3 year old players, who have got ever skill as its come out, not had to start from scratch. The times are to long for new players.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.10.31 19:55:00 - [22] Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight traning time and the precs do seem to be getting a bit nuts there days, and players on veiw the game from the perception of 3 year old players, who have got ever skill as its come out, not had to start from scratch. The times are to long for new players. Almost the opposite. The new players know exactly what they have to train for, while the veterans have been held back by constant nerfing and rebalancing. Its extremely rare to catch a 3 year old player with any remotely good skillset, after the kind of nerfdodging they've usually had to do - Proud member of the [23]. Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
Zac Paris	Posted - 2005.10.31 19:59:00 - [23] Originally by: Dark Shikari Its extremely rare to catch a 3 year old player with any remotely good skillset, after the kind of nerfdodging they've usually had to do But won't it only continue? It's not very promising to a newish player like myself to aim for specialising in one area, only to find it might be nerfed along the way.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.10.31 20:00:00 - [24] Originally by: Zac Paris Originally by: Dark Shikari Its extremely rare to catch a 3 year old player with any remotely good skillset, after the kind of nerfdodging they've usually had to do But won't it only continue? It's not very promising to a newish player like myself to aim for specialising in one area, only to find it might be nerfed along the way. Yup, it will. Three years from now, you'll be able to tell the newbies what I just told you... - Proud member of the [23]. Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
Tal Oman	Posted - 2005.10.31 21:13:00 - [25] Almost 2 months in game and I don't agree with changing the training times...yet :). Most lower end skills don't take any time at all to get to LvL3 and thats more than half the mods you get from the skill, so thats not a real issue. The time it takes to get to LvL5 from lvl3 is the big investment and that actually plays into a newbies hand. Just in 2 months a newb can specialize in mining and be better at mining than even 6-8month players who didn't go mining. It will also take them 2 months to catch-up if they desire to. That allows me as a newb to be useful early in the game. If training times were faster, those 6-8month players would have all the combat skills thay have now, plus the mining skills I went after, which devalues my worth early in the game. A separate value added to the game by long training times, is that players actually stay at a certifications for a decent amount of time. How many people would use Tech 1 stuff if they could rocket into Tech 2 in a few days? or, how many folks would just skip Frigs and go right into Cruisers without getting some actually playtime in frigs? This creates a viable market for even the low end parts and ships.
TheDamned	Posted - 2005.10.31 21:30:00 - [26] I had a trial account a little over a year ago. Recently I got the craving for space and remembered EVE. I reactivated my account a few days ago and have been hauling ass trying to train skills up. I have now been waiting a few days just to get to Frig 4 so I can get a ship that will actually let me use the weapons I'm now trained for. I have over a full day left and it's killing me. At first I began mining, constantly. It's really all I have been able to do for days and as of today I've given up on it and began playing other games. It's just so daunting. I've trained learning up to 3, I have a +1 perception implant and a couple other learning skills which reduced my training time a little, but even that took me a day to get trained up, Science, Cybernetics, learning skills... I feel like I'm basically waiting another day for my enjoyment of the game to actually begin. A crusier ship I can actuallly begin using to get things going for myself sigh It feels like I'm looking down a looooong dark tunnel. I can't do much with corp mates, not really enough rookies to do things with. It's pretty off balance. Your either a year+ vet or you just started playing a week ago, from my experiences so far. GReat game, but damn the waiting times.
Pestillence	Posted - 2005.10.31 21:50:00 - [27] I have to agree with the OP. These threads come around occasionally and the attitude from some of the older player base is without fail "we did so why shouldn't you?" Somebody mentioned older players having wasted skillpoints and gave a support cruiser as an example. Wow, so you might have trained logistics level 1 and thats wasted All of the other prerequisites are useful. Also, does this mean new players have no scope to make a bad choice? Are they not human too? Theres a lot of new skills come in. Some of them with completely ridiculous multipliers and trining times. Look at just electronics as an example. Theres two different skills for when you want to tracking disrupt / dampen / target paint / jam someone (new skills) Imo this game has gotten past the point where new players can come in and have a viable go at being a good all-rounder.
Kurren	Posted - 2005.10.31 22:23:00 - [28] Originally by: TheDamned I had a trial account a little over a year ago. Recently I got the craving for space and remembered EVE. I reactivated my account a few days ago and have been hauling ass trying to train skills up. I have now been waiting a few days just to get to Frig 4 so I can get a ship that will actually let me use the weapons I'm now trained for. I have over a full day left and it's killing me. At first I began mining, constantly. It's really all I have been able to do for days and as of today I've given up on it and began playing other games. It's just so daunting. I've trained learning up to 3, I have a +1 perception implant and a couple other learning skills which reduced my training time a little, but even that took me a day to get trained up, Science, Cybernetics, learning skills... I feel like I'm basically waiting another day for my enjoyment of the game to actually begin. A crusier ship I can actuallly begin using to get things going for myself sigh It feels like I'm looking down a looooong dark tunnel. I can't do much with corp mates, not really enough rookies to do things with. It's pretty off balance. Your either a year+ vet or you just started playing a week ago, from my experiences so far. GReat game, but damn the waiting times. Find more things to do... There's more to this game than that ship mining... there's a whole universe out there. Now give me my money CCP!! ************************************************ I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist...
Kurren	Posted - 2005.10.31 22:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Pestillence I have to agree with the OP. These threads come around occasionally and the attitude from some of the older player base is without fail "we did so why shouldn't you?" Well... why shouldn't they? We've had to play this game the way it was delivered to us, and we grew to love it. Why shouldn't other people be set to the same rules? Quote: Somebody mentioned older players having wasted skillpoints and gave a support cruiser as an example. Wow, so you might have trained logistics level 1 and thats wasted All of the other prerequisites are useful. Also, does this mean new players have no scope to make a bad choice? Are they not human too? Theres a lot of new skills come in. Some of them with completely ridiculous multipliers and trining times. Look at just electronics as an example. Theres two different skills for when you want to tracking disrupt / dampen / target paint / jam someone (new skills) Imo this game has gotten past the point where new players can come in and have a viable go at being a good all-rounder. Then why do they do it? Not as in "why don't they go somewhere else?"... but as in "Why do I see it done constantly?" New players who put up with it seem to do a lot better in game. New players who come to the forums asking for shorter training times CAN do better. To be honest, nobody felt sorry for me when all I had was after-creation skills. I love this game. TBH, the only way you ever appreciate something is if you work for it. You need to work to succeed. That's the way anything works. And unless you're at work, you could have spent the time on this forum doing something in-game... like running a mission, or trying a complex, or mining and earning some money... learning how to USE your skills, maybe... Fast training time or not... what good are skills if you have no clue how to use them... ************************************************ I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist...
Pestillence	Posted - 2005.10.31 23:37:00 - [30] Edited by: Pestillence on 31/10/2005 23:39:36 Originally by: Kurren Originally by: Pestillence I have to agree with the OP. These threads come around occasionally and the attitude from some of the older player base is without fail "we did so why shouldn't you?" Well... why shouldn't they? We've had to play this game the way it was delivered to us, and we grew to love it. Why shouldn't other people be set to the same rules? The game has evolved, so should its training routines. Anyway. When my dad was young he walked to school in the snow. He only had one shoe which he had to swop from foot to foot and it was uphill both ways. He never had colour tv, microwave ovens or cell phones. I suppose I could do the same or I could gasp omfg try to improve something.

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