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Boris Ginnungagap
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1
   |
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sooo, what's your point of view on this matter?
BS sized missile launchers and damage.
BC sized hull.
Or will it totally suck since it doesn't come with TP bonus and cruise missiles are just absolutely horrible? 
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Comy 1
Ore Mongers
Indecisive Certainty
49
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Who said that it WILL have missiles for sure? For all we know it might be a hybrid boat. |
kratos candre
Southern Pride
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Well, cruise and seige missiles suck and hybrids are broken. So I'm guessing it well suck til the hybrid fix.
Cant wait for the amarr version tho!
 |
XXSketchxx
Remote Soviet Industries
39
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
A torp version would be interesting but I'm betting its tank is going to be garbage.
I pictures this new class of ships as bc sized glass cannons, i.e. not very suitable for solo pve. |
kratos candre
Southern Pride
0
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Posted - 2011.10.21 17:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
From the blog, I'm guessing they will be pvp based. |
XXSketchxx
Remote Soviet Industries
39
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
kratos candre wrote:From the blog, I'm guessing they will be pvp based.
That's quite possibly the most ignorant pubbie statement I have ever seen.
The only ship type that I can think of that was "designed" for PvE is marauders. All other ships are balanced around pvp. They just also happen to get used for PvE. |
Goose99
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Since when were large guns preferable to medium in typical pvp, outside of blobs? |
Sub Prime
Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:kratos candre wrote:From the blog, I'm guessing they will be pvp based. That's quite possibly the most ignorant pubbie statement I have ever seen. The only ship type that I can think of that was "designed" for PvE is marauders. All other ships are balanced around pvp. They just also happen to get used for PvE.
Gibbon, any ship that has PVP specific stats is designed for PVP, not PVE.
EDIT: Check this out - you're typical of the 3rd entry down : http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pubbie |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
33
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:kratos candre wrote:From the blog, I'm guessing they will be pvp based. That's quite possibly the most ignorant pubbie statement I have ever seen. The only ship type that I can think of that was "designed" for PvE is marauders. All other ships are balanced around pvp. They just also happen to get used for PvE.
ORE ships are designed for PvE too, Barges through the Rorqual :P (Yes, they can be used for PvP, as Marauders can too, but they were designed for PvE)
I have to agree with you though, most of Eve is balanced (albeit badly at times) around PvP. |
XXSketchxx
Remote Soviet Industries
39
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sub Prime wrote:XXSketchxx wrote:kratos candre wrote:From the blog, I'm guessing they will be pvp based. That's quite possibly the most ignorant pubbie statement I have ever seen. The only ship type that I can think of that was "designed" for PvE is marauders. All other ships are balanced around pvp. They just also happen to get used for PvE. Gibbon, any ship that has PVP specific stats is designed for PVP, not PVE. EDIT: Check this out - you're typical of the 3rd entry down : http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pubbie
u still butthurt bro?
ps: i hear urban dictionary is a great source for info, as I am surely a gay mormon stroking others' epeens |
XXSketchxx
Remote Soviet Industries
39
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
mxzf wrote:
ORE ships are designed for PvE too, Barges through the Rorqual :P (Yes, they can be used for PvP, as Marauders can too, but they were designed for PvE)
I have to agree with you though, most of Eve is balanced (albeit badly at times) around PvP.
I suppose I should have specified "combat" ships, but you seemed to have gotten my point. |
Sub Prime
Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nope, your point was effing awful. Bonuses and stats define what a ship is good at or bad at. What the OP is saying as that the ship may well be PVP focussed - i.e. have bonuses and stats specifically for PVP, like recon ships for example.
You can PVP in most ships, but that certainly doesn't mean that all those ships are better as PVP ships than PVE ships. |
XXSketchxx
Remote Soviet Industries
39
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Sub Prime wrote:Nope, your point was effing awful. Bonuses and stats define what a ship is good at or bad at. What the OP is saying as that the ship may well be PVP focussed - i.e. have bonuses and stats specifically for PVP, like recon ships for example.
And where do you think those bonuses and stats come from? Perhaps....devs trying to balance pvp?
As for "stats specifically for PVP," you are referring to "role specific ships" i.e. most Tech 2. Tech 1 ships were still balanced around...PVP.
Quote: You can PVP in most ships, but that certainly doesn't mean that all those ships are better as PVP ships than PVE ships.
I didn't say they were better for PVP, merely that they were designed and balanced around PVP, just as this ship will be.
Reading comprehension is hard, amirite? |
stoicfaux
313
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 19:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
Boris Ginnungagap wrote:Sooo, what's your point of view on this matter? BS sized missile launchers and damage. BC sized hull. Or will it totally suck since it doesn't come with TP bonus and cruise missiles are just absolutely horrible?
:looks at Raven:
Meh.
:looks at Torp/Cruise BC:
Meh.
As for PvP, a cruise/torp BC might spell the end of Drake blobs due to the Drake's sig bloom from shield extender rigs/modules.
Tinfoil. It should be at the top of everyone's food pyramid.
|
Ketplunk
Loki's Legion
0
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Posted - 2011.10.21 19:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
T3 BC? |
Goose99
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
76
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 19:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Boris Ginnungagap wrote:Sooo, what's your point of view on this matter? BS sized missile launchers and damage. BC sized hull. Or will it totally suck since it doesn't come with TP bonus and cruise missiles are just absolutely horrible? :looks at Raven: Meh. :looks at Torp/Cruise BC: Meh. As for PvP, a cruise/torp BC might spell the end of Drake blobs due to the Drake's sig bloom from shield extender rigs/modules.
Shouldn't it have happened already? It's the same cruise/torps are Ravens... |
Ketplunk
Loki's Legion
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 19:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ooooh, my bad, have they been announced? |
Sub Prime
Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 20:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Sub Prime wrote:Nope, your point was effing awful. Bonuses and stats define what a ship is good at or bad at. What the OP is saying as that the ship may well be PVP focussed - i.e. have bonuses and stats specifically for PVP, like recon ships for example. And where do you think those bonuses and stats come from? Perhaps....devs trying to balance pvp? As for "stats specifically for PVP," you are referring to "role specific ships" i.e. most Tech 2. Tech 1 ships were still balanced around...PVP. Quote: You can PVP in most ships, but that certainly doesn't mean that all those ships are better as PVP ships than PVE ships. I didn't say they were better for PVP, merely that they were designed and balanced around PVP, just as this ship will be. Reading comprehension is hard, amirite?
Jeez, the OP said that he/she thought it'd be a PVP based ship (i.e. its bonuses/stats would be more biased towards PVP than PVE).
Nothing more, nothing less. He/she said nothing about it being unbalanced PVP wise.
And saying T1 ships are balanced around PVP is laughable. Look at T1 Battleships and pirate faction ships for example. |
XXSketchxx
Remote Soviet Industries
40
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 20:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sub Prime wrote:
Jeez, the OP said that he/she thought it'd be a PVP based ship (i.e. its bonuses/stats would be more biased towards PVP than PVE).
Nothing more, nothing less. He/she said nothing about it being unbalanced PVP wise.
And saying T1 ships are balanced around PVP is laughable. Look at T1 Battleships and pirate faction ships for example.
The OP didn't say anything about this topic actually, but again sweet reading comprehension.
Anyway, my point was that the guy that originally said "it will be a pvp based ship" was being ignorant in the sense that ALL combat ships are "pvp based." In other words, all combat ships have their stats/bonuses tweaked to make them balanced for pvp, thus they are all "pvp based." He was implying that there are "PVE" based ships; this is foolish carebear speak for "THE RAVEN IS A PVE BOAT CAUSE ITS POPULAR IN LVL 4 MISSIONS."
As for T1 battleships and faction ships.....are you seriously that stupid?
Sweet white knighting though.
|
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
53
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Posted - 2011.10.21 20:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
Boris Ginnungagap wrote:BS sized missile launchers and damage.
BC sized hull.
I've yet to have seen a reason to get excited about Raven-level damage in a smaller hull that might just tank worse than the stumpy spacehawk itself.
Edit: And don't even get me started on what an absurd waste a pocket Rokh would be. Maybe with the hybrid buff it could be a reasonable idea, but good god not now. |
Sub Prime
Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 21:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
Apologies, it wasn't the OP that you replied to.
That's the apologies over :cough:
By saying "it will be a pvp based ship" he was implying it would be a ships having a very PVP orientated role. Exactly the same as a recon.
Recons are pretty awful for PVE (forget going down the amarr droneboatd route) but very very good for PVP. Who's to say the new ship class is similar to the recon class in having a very PVP orientated role?
You on the other hand see things as black and white although it's not black and white at all:
+10 = Total PVP
0 = Equally competent in PVP or PVE
-10 = Total PVE
Recon ships +8
Marauders -10
These ships could actually turn out to be a +10 with amazingly niche PVP bonuses!!
|
Gavin DeVries
JDI Industries
14
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Posted - 2011.10.21 21:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
My initial thoughts are that these may very well become the kings of suicide ganking. Battleship level weaponry means battleship level damage output, and who gives a rats ass about the tank on a boat CONCORD is going to shortly destroy?
PVP is a question with no single right answer, but a lot of wrong ones. |
XXSketchxx
Remote Soviet Industries
42
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 21:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sub Prime wrote:Apologies, it wasn't the OP that you replied to.
That's the apologies over :cough:
By saying "it will be a pvp based ship" he was implying it would be a ships having a very PVP orientated role. Exactly the same as a recon.
Recons are pretty awful for PVE (forget going down the amarr droneboatd route) but very very good for PVP. Who's to say the new ship class is similar to the recon class in having a very PVP orientated role?
You on the other hand see things as black and white although it's not black and white at all:
+10 = Total PVP
0 = Equally competent in PVP or PVE
-10 = Total PVE
Recon ships +8
Marauders -10
These ships could actually turn out to be a +10 with amazingly niche PVP bonuses!!
....are you intentionally ignoring everything I say?
Fact: CCP designs ships. Said ships have bonuses and stats. Said ships are BALANCED with regards to pvp (i.e how they will combat other ships).
You seem to be confusing recons with all ships. Yes recons are very specific to pvp; thats because they have a DEDICATED roll to fill. They still get used for pve. Is it effective? Meh, there are probably better ships for it.
My tengu is great for pve. Was it balanced around it? No. It was balanced around how it would compete with other ships. It just happens to be damn good at pve too.
My point is, this ship will be balanced/designed for pvp, just like every other ship. Whether or not it will be better for pve or pvp is a mystery for now.
Is all this clear now? |
stoicfaux
313
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 21:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:stoicfaux wrote:
As for PvP, a cruise/torp BC might spell the end of Drake blobs due to the Drake's sig bloom from shield extender rigs/modules.
Shouldn't it have happened already? It's the same cruise/torps are Ravens... As in Tier
I've always wondered that myself. Might be a cost issue, or even an opportunity cost issue with low/null-sec logistics in regards to minerals, industry, and moving hulls around.
Tinfoil. It should be at the top of everyone's food pyramid.
|
Sub Prime
Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 21:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Sub Prime wrote:Apologies, it wasn't the OP that you replied to.
That's the apologies over :cough:
By saying "it will be a pvp based ship" he was implying it would be a ships having a very PVP orientated role. Exactly the same as a recon.
Recons are pretty awful for PVE (forget going down the amarr droneboatd route) but very very good for PVP. Who's to say the new ship class is similar to the recon class in having a very PVP orientated role?
You on the other hand see things as black and white although it's not black and white at all:
+10 = Total PVP
0 = Equally competent in PVP or PVE
-10 = Total PVE
Recon ships +8
Marauders -10
These ships could actually turn out to be a +10 with amazingly niche PVP bonuses!!
....are you intentionally ignoring everything I say? Fact: CCP designs ships. Said ships have bonuses and stats. Said ships are BALANCED with regards to pvp (i.e how they will combat other ships). You seem to be confusing recons with all ships. Yes recons are very specific to pvp; thats because they have a DEDICATED roll to fill. They still get used for pve. Is it effective? Meh, there are probably better ships for it. My tengu is great for pve. Was it balanced around it? No. It was balanced around how it would compete with other ships. It just happens to be damn good at pve too. My point is, this ship will be balanced/designed for pvp, just like every other ship. Whether or not it will be better for pve or pvp is a mystery for now. Is all this clear now?
Are you stupid? READ CAREFULLY!
The poster you replied to said it would be PVP based. Just because you think that he/she means PVP unbalanced is your problem, not his/hers.
And ROFL on the Tengu/T3 arguement as an example. Do you think the Legion for example is superior or inferior to the Loki for PVP? |
Desudes
Pixelmoon
The Star League
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 23:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
Possibly the dumbest argument I've ever read. Go find a dev blog that says how they balance ships because all you guys are doing is yelling opinions.
BC hull with BS dps is going to rock, I don't see how this is even a question.
FOR THE DESU!!! |
Goose99
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
78
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 01:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
Desudes wrote:Possibly the dumbest argument I've ever read. Go find a dev blog that says how they balance ships because all you guys are doing is yelling opinions, at best.
BC hull with BS dps is going to rock, I don't see how this is even a question.
How much is "BS dps?" like +30% BC dps on paper, but with large guns with bad resolution that can't track, ending up with less than BC on applied dps? |
The Time Lord
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 03:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
if anyone is confused, the announcement of the tier 3 (not tech 3) BC is at http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3001
sounds good, cant wait for stats. how many expansions will we have to wait for to see it live? |
Desudes
Pixelmoon
The Star League
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 03:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:Desudes wrote:Possibly the dumbest argument I've ever read. Go find a dev blog that says how they balance ships because all you guys are doing is yelling opinions, at best.
BC hull with BS dps is going to rock, I don't see how this is even a question. How much is "BS dps?" like +30% BC dps on paper, but with large guns with bad resolution that can't track, ending up with less than BC on applied dps?
So manipulate circumstances to where your +30% dps is actually applied? Webs, target painters, tracking mods, manipulating transversal- battleships, not battlecruisers, are used for most L4s because of their dps, not their tank.
A glass cannon enthusiasts dream.
FOR THE DESU!!! |
Renix Xerar
Off-Axis Response
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 05:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
But um.. All ridiculous arguing aside.. On topic:
"They will be capable of similar damage output as a battleship but obviously all that damage comes at a price.They wonGÇÿt be able to tank like a battleship, but what they lack in the tanking department the right pilot should be able to somewhat make up for with speed and distance management." - Directly from the devblog
I'm guessing they'll be capable at pve just as any t1 battleship/drake can be, but will require micromanagement.. The damage output won't be ridiculously high, just as high as your average rated t2 fit raven, maybe a bit higher. The tank, however, will be lucky to match that of a drake I think.. and you'll have to do appropriate kiting and speed maneuvering.
All in all I think the CNRs, Tengus, Marauders and Machs will still trump it three times over but it won't be 'bad' per say.
Sidenote to end on: I think the Caldari one might be hybrid based, in my opinion anyways, just because they look better as gun boats riddled with turrets than model-less launchers and aesthetics are everything in the result of an art contest XD Before everyone freaks out just remember that Hybrid fixes are en route for the next expansion, don't lose hope! |
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