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Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.11.04 22:42:00 -
[1]
I was thinking.
pvp'ers are laughting at miners.
corps are exploiting miners blind.
pirates are killing miners by the number.
trader are robbing miners quite openly.
Would be time to organise an alliance of miners to control ore prices, production prices and manufacturing of items.
Would be time to get ourselves organised.
When an armageddon battleship will reach 500 mil each pirates wont laught anymore at miners.
Would be torward mutual defence and control of prices.
Kinda producers union or cartel.
Traders have their own channels and exchange info among them.
Are we less then traders, pvp'er or pirates.
0.0 Alliances laught at miners. So, will create our own little space to laught too.
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Ugleb
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Posted - 2005.11.04 22:49:00 -
[2]
What's a pvp'er? 
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Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.11.04 22:52:00 -
[3]
Somebody who does nothing but fighting.
Does not produce or mine, research just fights either pirates, mercenaries or in 0.0.
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.04 22:53:00 -
[4]
I like your thinking.
(OOC: Note this is an IC forum so things like PvP'ers dont exist.)
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression. |
Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.11.04 23:04:00 -
[5]
That's the kind of posts that set me on balistic course.
Originally from Mows
"I love posts like the OP because every time a solution is put forth to "fix" pvp so whiny miners can do their thing in peace, it adds to their frustration when they die.
Frustrated miners dying makes me happy.
Yes, your idea for a solution is great. Because it gives you hope that some day the universe will conform to your puerile concept of fairness. And keeps you around to get frustrated again."
Fed up of that junk smack.
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.04 23:12:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Kaeleron on 04/11/2005 23:12:34
 Originally by: Andouus La
That's the kind of posts that set me on balistic course.
Originally from Mows
"I love posts like the OP because every time a solution is put forth to "fix" pvp so whiny miners can do their thing in peace, it adds to their frustration when they die.
Frustrated miners dying makes me happy.
Yes, your idea for a solution is great. Because it gives you hope that some day the universe will conform to your puerile concept of fairness. And keeps you around to get frustrated again."
Fed up of that junk smack.
OP? pvp? fix what? I do hope you aren't on boosters. Though I can agree hunting the industry that helps us all is somewhat foolish.
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression. |
Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.11.04 23:34:00 -
[7]
That came from another discussion from another section here. You could say it's almost an out of context quote. Still give an idea of what a majority of peeps that are pirates or others thinks of miners.
About the role playing of all this, I just miners as another opressed kind in the game.
We need some sort of organisation to keep our interests free.
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.04 23:38:00 -
[8]
(Fair enough, but the Mods will lock the thread if it doesn't stay in an RP format. Not really a help to anyone then.)
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression. |
Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.11.04 23:46:00 -
[9]
Ahhhhhhhhhh
Ok. Understand now. Kinda newbie at all this role playing aspect but shurely can give it a try. Will be funny anyhow.
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.04 23:58:00 -
[10]
So you are suggesting miners horde thier yield, or just hang thier mining lasers and let the supply run out?
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression. |
Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2005.11.04 23:59:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 05/11/2005 00:01:38
Mining is easy, its not something an alliance can ever monopolize.
Any rookie can train mining level 4, astrogeology level 4 and buy an osprey... Sure its not quite a covetor strip mining the belts but there will never be 500 million isk armageddons.
Not to mention that most (or all) of the active combat alliances and corporations actually have their own industrial backbones to support their operations.
Edit; Plus, miners cant secure low sec space without combat pilots so in order to get high end minerals miners need combat pilots where combat pilots dont really need miners.
So in the end the combat pilots will always be the one in charge.
Its quite evil if you think about it...
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.11.05 00:01:00 -
[12]
First thing to consider is that miners faces enormous problems at differents level but two main one.
a) prices of ore
b) access to mining ressources
Two ennemies then: pirates and traders.
In low sec you get podded, killed and lose ship and equipment.
On the market you sell your ore at rediculous prices waisting countless hours of mining efforts.
This has to stop.
Association is essential then because traders are organised in guilds and informal associations of guilds as pirates control low sec areas, traders control portions of markets.
Education of members, knowledge of the market and mutual protection.
Those would be achivable goals.
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.05 00:16:00 -
[13]
Guilds? A new idea? Tell me more.
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression. |
Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.11.05 05:53:00 -
[14]
Miners are selling their work. They are selling their work in the dark not knowing what is the basic operations of the markets because they cant if they are not organised.
Traders are organised and control the market of eve tru secret guilds and channels where they exchange information.
A mining guild or in another word a guild tru guild would rally up mining guilds in a common effort to sum up market infomation.
Also, as a first concret step we need to rally up data on who controls low sec sectors as they are controled by pirate corporation. Without information, low sec is out of reach as it is now pretty empty. As of uncharted territory not falling under concord authorities, well it's rather empty.
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Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.11.05 15:20:00 -
[15]
Also on the brighter sides of things, the miner guild would provide along with centrised informations and training if this ever rises as a driving force in eve's world:
- services for ore thiefs
- systems to avoid due to over mineral over exploitation
- means of negociation of fixed ore prices
Among other services, the ore cartel would raise the standards of the mining profession.
We are laught at this has to stop!
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Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.11.05 16:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 05/11/2005 00:01:38
Mining is easy, its not something an alliance can ever monopolize.
Any rookie can train mining level 4, astrogeology level 4 and buy an osprey... Sure its not quite a covetor strip mining the belts but there will never be 500 million isk armageddons.
Not to mention that most (or all) of the active combat alliances and corporations actually have their own industrial backbones to support their operations.
Edit; Plus, miners cant secure low sec space without combat pilots so in order to get high end minerals miners need combat pilots where combat pilots dont really need miners.
So in the end the combat pilots will always be the one in charge.
Its quite evil if you think about it...
Lets take all this one by one. All good comments but very Gallente thaughts sad to say.
Defeat is not an option. Either you have success or you perish. The second is not in my plans, so will stick with the first part shall we. Even outnumbered three by one, still victory with might is at hands. Will is a key element.
The idea is not monopolise anything. You dont need to monopolise the trade to be a driving force. An organised force attract many and ideally you attrack highly skilled miners.
If a new miner want to dig his own may he do so. Those that have invested in the trade know that depleated belts in over exploited systems is not good for anybody.
Pirates dont mine and hate mining as a fact.
Eve need miners are the market is very dependant on minerals. This should open up something in the minds of everybody.
Negociating prices or ore and minerals is important.
Avoiding over exploitation of belts an whole sytems is also necessary.
A mining cartel or an industrial alliance would have the means to even employ mercs to fight pirates in some low sec areas.
Isks, Isks Isks comes down to Isks bottom line.
Want to mine for peas by the hour? Continue in this Gallente reasonning and you will have a bowl of peas in front of you my friend!
I hate begging for my share.
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Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.11.05 20:07:00 -
[17]
Here is a picture that worth a 1000 words.
Economic disaster, I call it the "Isanamo syndrome" where anchored secured cargo outgrew the number of roids.
http://www.eve-files.com/media/11/isanamo2.JPG
Is this the future of eve ?
Yes maybe new pilots coming out of academys can hop into a mining cruiser Osprey class, but are they aware of basic mining procedures?
Farming techniques are not used and where they are not the results are devastating.
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Paladine Tor
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Posted - 2005.11.05 23:14:00 -
[18]
A mining alliance would be a very large target for the pirates of EVE.
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Shemar
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Posted - 2005.11.05 23:47:00 -
[19]
The biggest flaw I see in this plan is that in order to control the prices, you would have to control a very large percentage of the actual mining, not to mention recycling. How will you control such a large percentage as to effectively control the prices?
Don't get me wrong, I agree with your reasoning, I was just wondering if you have a plan about the practical side of things.
Trembling hands or nerves of steel, someone tell me what to feel. |
Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.11.06 00:09:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Paladine Tor
A mining alliance would be a very large target for the pirates of EVE.
I am not to worried about that. Pirates for most of them cant come in secure space. Even they declare war on an industrial alliance, how on earth would they cross the 0.5 gates if for most of them they are outlawed at -5.0 and more?
Pirates are not a big worry for me.
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Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.11.06 00:15:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Andouus La on 06/11/2005 00:16:21
Originally by: Shemar
The biggest flaw I see in this plan is that in order to control the prices, you would have to control a very large percentage of the actual mining, not to mention recycling. How will you control such a large percentage as to effectively control the prices?
Don't get me wrong, I agree with your reasoning, I was just wondering if you have a plan about the practical side of things.
I cant go out and approach all the new miners out in every corner of the universe. I would be chasing everybody and spinning in circles all day long.
Nope.
An alliance would gather up progressively production corps and mining corps. Let the rest be attracted by this association. We just need a critical mass of skilled producers and skilled miners.
The word will circle around. If the project is good it will work. The key concept for me is to be a driving force, not a monopoly.
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2005.11.06 01:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Andouus La
Pirates dont mine and hate mining as a fact.
Thats not 100% accurate, pirates and other assorted non-miners may not like mining but they might find themselves quite willing to strap on some mining beams incase prices where actually going to rise to crazy amounts.
Then theres of course a few other things in keep in mind; The never ending supply of shuttles sold by the major empires. The mpires produce them faster then we could ever buy them, as a result once tritanium hits 3.6 isk it becomes cheaper to buy and refine shuttles and as such it can never rise above that.
The same will go for other minerals in basic equipment that the empires sell as well.
Quote:
Want to mine for peas by the hour? Continue in this Gallente reasonning and you will have a bowl of peas in front of you my friend!
What exactly makes it Gallente reasoning btw?
Anyway, as i said, you can never unite enough miners to have any long term control on the mineral market prices, youre of course welcome to try.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Tsual
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Posted - 2005.11.06 02:00:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Thats not 100% accurate, pirates and other assorted non-miners may not like mining but they might find themselves quite willing to strap on some mining beams incase prices where actually going to rise to crazy amounts.
Don't forget alliances in the non concord controlled space.
Anyway good luck with your endeavours.
You might begin with traveling through the different regions and research the market by calculating ore prices per recycable portion out of regional mineral prices and compare them to actual ore prices.
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Haanem ulwei, utnazhiram Hal'sha'roh mahiraam Hor'thul.
The Universe is everything, the creation Hal'shah and the destruction Hor'thul.
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Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.11.06 02:20:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Andouus La on 06/11/2005 02:22:18
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Originally by: Andouus La
Pirates dont mine and hate mining as a fact.
Thats not 100% accurate, pirates and other assorted non-miners may not like mining but they might find themselves quite willing to strap on some mining beams incase prices where actually going to rise to crazy amounts.
This would be a victory.
The idea is not to get the prices of ore to ridicule hights. This would penalise too much the market and stall demand.
Lets put it this way, prices of ore is elastic to a certain point. Behond this "certain point" your price will lower demand and your revenues will drop. So what is exactly the "reasonable" prices of ore?
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Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.11.06 02:29:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Andouus La on 06/11/2005 02:33:47
Originally by: Kaeleron
So you are suggesting miners horde thier yield, or just hang thier mining lasers and let the supply run out?
Some megacorps buy ore, miners could stop selling to perticular individual and just sell to megacorporations.
You could call this a mining strike.
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Tsual
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Posted - 2005.11.06 04:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Andouus La
Edited by: Andouus La on 06/11/2005 02:33:47
Originally by: Kaeleron
So you are suggesting miners horde thier yield, or just hang thier mining lasers and let the supply run out?
Some megacorps buy ore, miners could stop selling to perticular individual and just sell to megacorporations.
You could call this a mining strike.
To be their slaves in the end?
Man er woman just set your price on the market for a month, if it is abhorrant you will see if it is within acceptable margins you'll get paid.
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Haanem ulwei, utnazhiram Hal'sha'roh mahiraam Hor'thul.
The Universe is everything, the creation Hal'shah and the destruction Hor'thul.
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Constantine Arcanum
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Posted - 2005.11.06 12:01:00 -
[27]
Ha! I laugh at your unwillingness to fight!
Also, not EVERY pirate is restricted to low sec systems... I've killed a few in my time, then I kill fellow pirates to get my security status back up again. I hate mining, so I just either ransom/ blow up people for fun and profit.
You miners must have a very boring life...
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Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.11.07 01:55:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Constantine Arcanum
Ha! I laugh at your unwillingness to fight!
Also, not EVERY pirate is restricted to low sec systems... I've killed a few in my time, then I kill fellow pirates to get my security status back up again. I hate mining, so I just either ransom/ blow up people for fun and profit.
You miners must have a very boring life...
Presuptuous reasonning.
You think in a binary format. Good and evil is your mindset.
Simplistic is it not. But to be a pirate, really to burn up your access to the fruits of the empire you have to be I guess.
Do not question what is not at your grasp. Leave this others, I will leave you to your gun diplomacy your seem to do well at it.
So be it whaterver it is.
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Peri Stark
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Posted - 2005.11.07 23:48:00 -
[29]
I find this topic rather interesting. If you could get enough miners to participate you could control mineral prices to some extent.
If a corporation or alliance attacks you, refuse to sell to that group.
If larger groups that have their own miners attack you, raise prices until everyone else griefs them back into line.
Very interesting thoughts indeed.
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Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you! |
Asarah
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Posted - 2005.11.08 20:34:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Asarah on 08/11/2005 20:36:54
I must say, your idea intrigues me.
I would be interested in working with you on setting up a basic conceptual frame work and doing a smidge of market research. If you are interested, send me an Eve mail.
It is a plan with merrit, though it will be a challenge. Perhaps that is why it interests me so.
Edit:
I have also spoken with some.... associates of mine, who have expressed interest in helping to forward this endeavor.
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