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Temerlyn	Posted - 2003.08.07 11:12:00 - [1] It's as simple as this If we get into a price selling war with each other Battleships will fall the same way as cruisers and become useless to sell. If you sell battleships get together with others and sell for an agreed price across the table, this way we can keep the market stable for all the sellers, you might not sell as quickly as you wanted to, but this will mean we can keep selling ships in definately till every corps has there own BS BP's Currently we sell dominix BS's We will soon sell Scorpions If you sell either of these contact me ingame and ill try and get everyone to set an agreed price. So far a couple of people have agreed to a set price for Domis. And yes this should be the Production forum or something but i wanna make sure people read this.
Elis Reik	Posted - 2003.08.07 11:21:00 - [2] This always seems like a good idea in theory but it just doesn't work. If there are twenty players selling Dominixs for 60 million isk, and I have my pick, there will be players offering to go as low as 58 million to attract my business. This doesn't seem like a big problem at the time but people gradually expect to get these lower prices and as a result, things snowball. It only takes one weak link in the chain to greatly disadvantage everyone interested in your idea. I've accumulated a lot of experience finding these "weak links" and have little problem getting good prices on pretty much anything I buy. The simple fact is, people want your business, especially with BYOMs and BYOM + Isks. There's no need for them to mine the ore themselves, all it does is tie up the blueprint. This may be enforcable within an alliance (if one was extremely organized) but alliance members would complain they should be getting a better deal internally
Josephine	Posted - 2003.08.07 11:21:00 - [3] Isn't that alot of energy wasted on a weird effort aslong as corps such as Playboy sell Bship BP copies for the price of a Bship. Filling one hole in a sinking ship when the 3 guys next to you are drilling new holes must become rather frustrating...
Temerlyn	Posted - 2003.08.07 11:21:00 - [4] One can only try
Cell Satimo	Posted - 2003.08.07 11:29:00 - [5] There is already a group of players addressing this, whom you may want to join. Read the "Trade Federation" thread under events, or join the "Trade Federation" channel. \| Join eve-webring.com to promote your site.
Fester Addams	Posted - 2003.08.07 11:34:00 - [6] Yes you are right, if the manufacturers get into a price war then prices will drop and as you underbid each other the cost for a new BS will drop to what some people will consider acceptable. I can truely say now that IF I was part of a large ship building corp and IF said corp started to get competition then I would do what every corp in a trust or monopoly situation has done since the start of time, get competition, make sure my ships are the ones bought. As I the consumer can not choose to buy specifically from a specific seller as I cant find out who is selling untill after the sale you have no leverage to boost your sales. In short BS will go the same way as the others on ste simple reason you want to get the cash, its not smart but there are too many players on the market and there is a huge profit margin, especially with max reacerched BP's and skills. The only thing that will block the drop of BS's is the isk you can get out of the minerals on the market, there will be a break even figure, atm this figure is defined by mineral costs and sellability ships will level out at a few milion above that price. My sugestion to the big corps is to start building a reputation, take TTi for example, if they would start adding non physical bonuses to their sales they might draw more cash, for example if you buy a BS from them then you are placed on their help if close by list for a day or two, if you get cornered in your BS by say 5 PC pirate BS's and are not on their permanent KOS list then they will if possible come to your aid and break up the blocade alowing the customer to escape. If a corp is the buyer then the corp might be allowed to, again if a suitable TTi force is near by, call in a blockade breaking force. The action to break up the blocade does in reality not cost anything for the seller unless they loose ships but I would gladly pay a few more isk for a BS if I knew the seller cared about the buyers well being. As for the prices, they will still plumet, somthing that I think is great, cheers. Btw, you are a producer with quite a bit of influence as you have a BS BP, I have offgame seen references to fuzzy dice BP's what are they, you or anyone know?
Stromen	Posted - 2003.08.07 11:36:00 - [7] Price fixing - don't you just love it. Whoever sells for the lowest will get my business - it's as simple as that.
Fang	Posted - 2003.08.07 11:43:00 - [8] The price items will sell for is cost plus profit. Profit levels start high then drop as more and more of that item become available. Its called supply and demand. It seems in Eve that the natural price of items = Base Mineral Cost (at around average market prices) + around 10-20%. If you are getting more than this because you have high production efficency or there are limited amounts of the item on the market then your doing well. The sale of rare items is the only sustained market at the moment. The market can only grow and achieve balance if items are consistently being lost, destroyed or wear out. WAR is a good market stimulant. Pirates are also a reasonable booster. GM tweaking would also play a part in stimulating the economy. A GROWING new player base is also a good market stimulant. Draw your own conclusions. Fang Sirius Corp Master Of His Own Pants
Viceroy	Posted - 2003.08.07 11:50:00 - [9] The Space Invaders are proud to say that we refuse to join this alliance of greed! We will continue selling people their Battleships back at 20-50mil per ship, no matter what class it is! -
Lucas De'Thal	Posted - 2003.08.07 12:02:00 - [10] if you guys all set the same price. how do you pick who should make the sale? if i see 10 people sell a battleship for 60 mil on trade. how do you choose who gets to make the profit? round robin?? and, "space invaders" how much is a scorpion cost? ______________________________________________ Hellmar > sorry for the attitude, playing a n00b character through the current state just left me a bit bitter dev chat: Mar 18, 2004 hellmar> "you lot are just so clever you have a good history for out smarting us :-S " dev chat: Feb 12, 2004
Don Niels	Posted - 2003.08.07 14:04:00 - [11] It's all linked to the dropping mineral prices. It almost the only thing to sell and get some profit in this game, if you are a freelancer or noob, so therefore everybody is selling minerals and the demand for them ain't great enough. Personally I don't care to make personal deals, going 10 jumps, just to sell one snotty small modified gun for 20k isk. Thereby the only way to get rid of loot, is to recycle it, because you can't use the Market to sell modified items. Maybe loot should be more about trade goods and lesser guns. This would make the trade goods good for something at least, and possible raise mineral prices as the demand grows, when everobody don't sell minerals. Have fun Don Niels
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.07 14:09:00 - [12] Wrong Mineral cost should not be what determines The ship cost. I think the price should be by 2 things The cost of the Insurence and the payoff. Otherwise it becomes dumb to sell them. So for example take an Omen.... payoff is 4.5M and cost for insurence is 1M Therfore it should be sold for 5.5M Wouldn't it be smarter if you had an better BP and maxed skill to keep the price high so you make more. At the very least The price should be higher then The Insurence payoff. With a good BP and maxed skill I have seen corps get the mineral cost to 2mill for an Omen. And what do they do they sell it for 2 mill. The Insure payoff is 4 mill. lets do the math and see just how dumb that really is. It still takes alot of Tri and pyr with takes awhile to mine. so..... Mineing the minerals for one Omen 1 - 5 hours ( if waiting to a batch of 3 to produce - 10 to 14 hours.) Production time 1.5 to 2.5 hours each. You make your 2 mill profit yepy... Now my turn.... Time it takes to buy Omen - 2 secs at 2mill Time it takes to insure Omen - 2 secs at 1mill Time it takes to have Omen destoyed - 5 to 10 mins Profit I make 4.5 mill Look destroy 2 buy 2 get one free. raise and recyle. which one of us just made more and at whos expence.
Athren Soulsteal	Posted - 2003.08.07 14:12:00 - [13] What a great idea! Yes I would like all my fellow competion,, err I mean ship builders to join with this guy and set your proffit margens to 2000%. Now you have to stick to your guns and fight the urge to sell anything.,, errr I mean underprice any thing. Remember your time is worth 20 mil isk per sale so ride it out. ---------------------- psss.. Hey buddy want to buy a ship? I have the best deals in the universe now. Which battle ship you want, it's 10 mil for a 1 run copy and you build it yourself. This post has be saterized for your protection.
Nicholas Marshal	Posted - 2003.08.07 14:16:00 - [14] Why is everyone obsessed with Battleships ? This game is not just a race for the next biggest ship ffs. I mean, what will you all do once you are in your Battleships ? lol.
The Wretch	Posted - 2003.08.07 14:17:00 - [15] Edited by: The Wretch on 07/08/2003 14:20:14 Here we go again with one of these threads on how the sky is falling on the bship market. Most ppl who buy bships establish a long term business relationship that company producing the bships and will get a great low price for continued business to begin with. The large corps with great manufacturing and mining capabilities will make good profit on selling bships at a low price and in turn kill competition from wanna be I got me a bship bp copy. We have 2 corps we will buy bships from consistently and they treat us to a very nice price and service (Techell and RUS). The Wretch Cyberdyne Systems CEO
Scragg	Posted - 2003.08.07 14:18:00 - [16] Edited by: Scragg on 07/08/2003 14:19:40 It's simple. Don't undercut each other. Match prices, don't beat prices and you can keep your profit margin up. Why we are obcessed with battleships... ship envy. Scragg, Tyrell Corporation Vice-Director Military Operations
eriq	Posted - 2003.08.07 15:22:00 - [17] lol, silly socialists when will you ever learn. in a pure free market economy you cannot fix prices no matter how hard you try. the price of a given object will ALWAYS rise and fall with demand and supply. let me illustrate the folly of your ways: if you were successful in your attempt to artificially raise the price of a given object and i wanted said object. i would just obtain the bp (original or copy) and build it myself, then seeing the price where it is, i'd undercut your price, just a bit to make up for the bp cost and maybe even turn a profit. since i'm not the only capitalist in the game, others will do the same, you'll then, either stop producing or lower your prices and... tadaa! the free market reigns despite your cartel-like attempts.
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.07 15:48:00 - [18] According to the Dev Chat They endorse the Trade Federations actions. and feel the same way about the market.
Janet Foster	Posted - 2003.08.07 15:52:00 - [19] Low prices are bad for the Companies but excellent news for the Consumers.
Daesdemona	Posted - 2003.08.07 15:57:00 - [20] I will GIVE you money if you come pick up my battelship, Jove prime system. ----------------------------------------------- Bart: "Do you even have a job any more?" Homer: "I think its obvious that I Don't" -----------------------------------------------
Roulette	Posted - 2003.08.07 16:39:00 - [21] Quote: i would just obtain the bp (original or copy) and build it myself, then seeing the price where it is, i'd undercut your price, just a bit to make up for the bp cost and maybe even turn a profit. since i'm not the only capitalist in the game, others will do the same, you'll then, either stop producing or lower your prices and... tadaa! the free market reigns despite your cartel-like attempts. And when does all the undercutting stop? When BS's are for sale at 2mil? 200k? Don't pretend it can't possibly happen.. I bought a Thorax last night for 300k.. That's why the market is all screwed up now for frigates and cruisers.. There's nothing 'socialist' going on.. It's an attempt to keep the market for BS's from going into the gutter like frigates and cruisers have. People aren't lowering their prices to be competitive, they're lowering their prices just for the sake of saying they sold something. It's sheer idiocy right now.. I can check the market at any given time and find plenty of frigates and cruisers for sale at prices significantly less than the insurance payoff amount, sometimes at less than a quarter the amount.. I routinely buy all the ones I'm capable of flying and turn right around and destroy them for the insurance.. Thankfully there aren't that many BS BP copies floating around.. Maybe it won't become a problem..
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.07 16:41:00 - [22] Quote: Thankfully there aren't that many BS BP copies floating around.. Maybe it won't become a problem.. espiecally with the new patch. I agree completely with what you just said. I for one hope that either the Cartel wins this or CCP fix a way to stop it.
Fester Addams	Posted - 2003.08.07 18:15:00 - [23] Roulette: I dont see the problem, if someone wants to sell their BS f÷r 2isk and a can of quafe who are you or I to say they cant? People who sell ships undecutting the "real" prices take the loss themselves, if a BS is worth 80M then if I sell one for 20M I make a net loss of 60M, thats comming out of my wallet, wich meens the market is saticefied, that is what market ecconomy is all about. If people are willing to sell at a certain price then that is the price it will be sold at. Then the devs suporting the trade federation, fine let them verbally suport it but since they came clean on other for most players more critical problems simply stating work it out for your selves, we dont get involved... why should they get involved now? Lastly then the above mentioned insurance fraud, if you can afford to sell a ship at way lower than the price it costs to take out the insurance then there is somthing seriously wrong with the insurance agency. Lets say you amend it for the consumer, whats to stop the ship building corps from abusing it? If someone is stupid enough to sell me 3 ships for the price of one of their insurance fallout it is not a problem, the seller takes the hit, if you can produce the ship at a cost lower than insurance fallout you have a problem. As for ship prices, what do BS go for nowadays, being a smalltime player I am just recently comming into the kind of cash to even consider buying one, what does the minimatar BS cost?
Endureth	Posted - 2003.08.07 18:21:00 - [24] If you can't compete then you shouldn't be making the battleships. Whoever sells cheapests gets my sale. Bottom line. -E
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.07 18:21:00 - [25] The market should be regulated. I am forced to sell below INS price becuase of ppl who aren't really aware that its really dumb. If you want to do it and are aware its your loss fine. Thats how I make money. Call in insurence fraud or whatever you wish. But if you sell cheep ships I'm the onw making profit at your expence.
Skillz	Posted - 2003.08.07 18:26:00 - [26] It's called Capitalism. I want more capitalism and less whining. Keep on flaming, lamers.
Aleister Crowley	Posted - 2003.08.07 18:44:00 - [27] Ok everyone knows the potential for insurance fraud. For those who sell below insurance costs ins+payout is doing themselves a disservice. They could destroy the ships themselves. I have already done that to a certain degree, do region wide looks for ship types find those under ins+payout and go there, buy and destroy the ship. The key is that the amount of profit you get from insurance fraud is not as much as you can usually get. The key being mega/zyd which can be a pain in the butt to acquire and mega is well over the NPC curve of mineral prices. The minerals NPCs buy is simply a measuring stick. It's like people agreeing that the distance between point a and b will from here on be called a meter. So the NPC constant is the minimum of what a mineral could be. We already see that mega and often times zyd are above these numbers because players realize they are harder to come by and more rare. It is all capitolism. Now what the original poster suggests is something like what OPEC has done, which is fine, but you will have to be able to enforce the price fix or the system will be doomed. Maybe try declaring war on those who don't conform? BTW: What do you do in a BS? Well solo, the toughest NPCs, mine twice as fast as a cruiser and kill player cruisers before they can travel 6k distance. Plenty of reasons to own one I think :) 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law'
Roulette	Posted - 2003.08.07 18:46:00 - [28] Edited by: Roulette on 07/08/2003 18:52:04 Quote: Roulette: I dont see the problem, if someone wants to sell their BS f÷r 2isk and a can of quafe who are you or I to say they cant? The problem is that the market becomes saturated with ships that are priced for far less than their material worth. You're right in that anyone can sell for anything they like and take as much of a loss as they want. But they are hurting people other than themselves. They're hurting the small corps who can't afford to sell ships for less than they'd get just selling the ore. they're hurting the researchers who have no reason to research BPs anymore because of people selling 10k frigates and 100k cruisers. They're hurting the solo producers. They're hurting the overall population which is soon going to find itself with lacking anything to save up for, and possible nothing to even spend any money on since all the legitimate producers/researchers have quit in disgust. Why would anyone want to startup/join a production corp these days? You can't make any money doing it if you have to compete with people who are willing to take a 100% loss on every sale. Same for being a researcher. What's the point in researching mineral/production efficiency if the producer is already selling items for less than the mineral cost? I've asked people who I've bought frigates and cruisers from(after tracking them down) why they sold something for so cheap, and almost all of them said they did it because saw another priced a couple hundred isk higher, or because they wanted to sell theirs first. Not a one of the people who told me that actually realized they could have made more money simply selling the materials they mined for the ship they built. It's got nothing to do with capitalism, or greed, or competition. It's Ignorance and stupidity. Quote: Lastly then the above mentioned insurance fraud, if you can afford to sell a ship at way lower than the price it costs to take out the insurance then there is somthing seriously wrong with the insurance agency. That's the whole point. There's nothing wrong with the insurance agency. The problem is with the individuals selling these items who either don't know, or don't care that they're selling too low.
Roulette	Posted - 2003.08.07 19:00:00 - [29] Quote: Ok everyone knows the potential for insurance fraud. I'm not really sure why it's being called fraud. Nobody's taking out insurance for more than a ship is worth.. It's impossible to do so, unless someone knows a way to take out multiple policies on a ship. what's going on here is that people are selling $60,000(wholesale) cars for 300 bucks and the buyer is putting total coverage insurance on it then driving out to a place full of known criminals so it will get stolen/stripped. Meanwhile, the legitimate manufacturer can't even sell for a couple thousand above wholesale because of all the morons selling at a loss.
TheJanitor	Posted - 2003.08.07 19:39:00 - [30] <Reads this thread> <rolls eyes> <Lowers his BS prices by 2M>
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.07 19:41:00 - [31] Awsome TheJanitor!! how mush are you selling them for? I wish to know and do you have any crusiers at a lower price too??
Lonewulf	Posted - 2003.08.07 20:43:00 - [32] I think the majority of posts like this are full of mostly bull** with very little substance. Thoraxs' for 300k? Omens for 1-2 million? C'mon get real. Sure I suppose occasionally something might sell for a ridiculasly low price like this for whatever reason who knows - but it's not the norm. I watch the market relatively close and cruiser prices have seemed pretty stable for a while once they hit 1-2 million profit per ship. Mallers cost 4 million at npc prices to build with decent skills, and a good deal on one on the market will be 6 mill (see them some places for close to 8 mill but obviously aren't selling unless someone is so impatient they wont make 10 jumps to save 2 million) It's called capitalism. All this talk of price fixing cartels is a pipe dream on Tech lvl 1 stuff. There are simply too many BP's and BPC out there that allow people to make their stuff without having to pay 500%+ mark ups (like cruisers were when a cartel of only the richest corps had BPS and tried to make the return on their long term BP investment back in a couple weeks ) The manufacturers are ***ing cause they can't log on, mash a button, come back a few hours later and make 10 million isk on a cruiser. What would you do if the miners all of a sudden decided that to hell with NPC price, we are going to sell Trit for 10 isk, pry for 40, mex for 160, Iso for 640 ect. Manufactures would go mine their own minerals. Which is what the buying public has basically done. They said we arent going to pay 18 million for a cruiser that costs 4 million and a few hours to build.. so they bought their own BP and make their stuff in house, and may even sell a few for 50% mark up and be perfectly happy. By doing that in short order they will save enough to recoupe the cost of the BP and pay for the factory slot ect.. and in the long term make out much better. Thats the key.. looking long term and not trying to get back your investment on a BP in a few weeks.
Roulette	Posted - 2003.08.07 20:51:00 - [33] Quote: I think the majority of posts like this are full of mostly bull**** with very little substance. Thoraxs' for 300k? Omens for 1-2 million? C'mon get real. Sure I suppose occasionally something might sell for a ridiculasly low price like this for whatever reason who knows - but it's not the norm. Fine, I'll provide screenshots next time. It's very much the norm. Primarily in SL and Essence region.(dunno about Omens though, I can't fly those, so I don't check) I very easily buy 6-15 ships a night for well under insurance payoff-insurance price amount.. It's become a habit for me to check prices on ships I can fly every time I dock so i don't miss them before they get snatched up.
YuuKnow	Posted - 2003.08.07 21:04:00 - [34] Edited by: YuuKnow on 07/08/2003 21:06:17 I say its simple. If your selling battlehips for a established price and some dumb butt corp comes around trying to sell for less just declare war on them. Then all you have to do is wipe the floor with them to the point where they either leave your territory or agree to sell at your price. I mean, its not like it hasn't happened before. History is packed with wars that have started for reasons of economic dominance. For example, back in the wooden ship days China used to have a huge opium problem where the opium was supplied by other countries (i forget which). Finally when the Chinese government tried to outlaw opium, the countries whose businesses were making profits suppling the opium to China immediately declared war on them in other to protect their cournties interest. Heck, economic competion and gains is pratically the reason for the American Revolutionary War. The British were seeking to keep a control the American economic market in order to maximize profits for British Mainland companies while the (soon to be)Americans were trying to break the economic strangleholds in order to buy cheaper imports and sell more exports. I guess my point is. You don't like the prices that another corp is selling at? Just beat them into submission until they understand whose the boss. Trade competition is an excellent reason to go to war.
Agent Shield	Posted - 2003.08.07 21:56:00 - [35] Nicholas, it is not an obsession with the 'battleship', but you have to admit; it is the best damn miner in the game right now. :-) Agent Shield
Aleister Crowley	Posted - 2003.08.07 23:20:00 - [36] I call it insurance fraud because it mirrors real life. Getting full insurance and then causing the theft/destruction yourself. This voids most policies (except those in eve). NPC mineral value of a ship is lower than ins+payout this much is true. So if your sales are slumping and you need some cash, NEVER NEVER sell minerals at NPC prices!!! Because you can make MORE money by producing a ship, insuring it and destroying it yourself! But the pot gets sweeter when you find someone who is actually selling ships below ins+payout. Because now you don't have to mine the minerals and it's free money. 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law'
eriq	Posted - 2003.08.07 23:51:00 - [37] i'm sick of selling isogen at 64, i want ccp to artificially "fix" the market so i can sell it at whatever i feel is a good profit...
Kashre	Posted - 2003.08.08 00:15:00 - [38] The shipbuilding market is fine the way it is, save for the fact that ships never wear out, reducing the number of new ones that need to be bought. The real issue is the insurance. Insurance should, IMO, be based on how much you paid for the ship, not how much its worth on the NPC market. The NPC price, I belive I heard someplace back in beta, was designed to be far in excess (like 200%) of what the devs thought the items "should be worth", although I say that only from dim recolections of the beta forums. I would never buy a ship at NPC prices, unless the price of megacyte (due to rarity) actually gets so high that it naturally drives the price up to that level in order for shipbuilders to get 20%ish profit. +++ It's called "low security space" for a reason.
Roulette	Posted - 2003.08.08 01:26:00 - [39] Edited by: Roulette on 08/08/2003 01:36:45 Quote: NPC mineral value of a ship is lower than ins+payout this much is true. So if your sales are slumping and you need some cash, NEVER NEVER sell minerals at NPC prices!!! Because you can make MORE money by producing a ship, insuring it and destroying it yourself! Umm, I think you're confused.. Vexor Insurance payout is 4,377,499. I can get almost 5 million for the minerals needed to make a Vexor, If I sell right after downtime. Insurance cost for a platinum policy on a Vexor costs 1,313,250. so basically, anyone retarded enough to build a Vexor, buy a plat policy and destroy it for cash just screwed themselves out of over a million isk. But the really dumb people, are the ones selling them for 1 or 2 million.. I won't even mention the morons who sell for less than that. If what you're trying to imply were true, there wouldn't be a single ship for sale on the market as everyone would be a multi-billionaire from doing as you suggest with the insurance..
Roulette	Posted - 2003.08.08 03:26:00 - [40] Quote: Quote: I think the majority of posts like this are full of mostly bull**** with very little substance. Thoraxs' for 300k? Omens for 1-2 million? C'mon get real. Sure I suppose occasionally something might sell for a ridiculasly low price like this for whatever reason who knows - but it's not the norm. Fine, I'll provide screenshots next time. haven't seen any rock-bottom cruisers yet tonight, but here's what's going on with frigates: http://myeve.eve-online.com/screenshots/default.asp?screenID=197
Fester Addams	Posted - 2003.08.08 04:01:00 - [41] Roulette, please be sure to inclue the system, station and sellers name, I would like to get in touch with the player to make a purchase. Im more than willing to pay a fair price :)
Lonewulf	Posted - 2003.08.08 05:07:00 - [42] Well I see an atron listed for 30k.. sure thats cheap.. but they are still DOUBLING their money. Even on a non researched copy with good manufacturing skills atrons cost less than 16k to make.. so 100% markup not enough? Have no idea what the insurance payout on an Atron is.. but doubt you could spend 30k + insurance and destroy an Atron for a profit.
Roulette	Posted - 2003.08.08 05:26:00 - [43] Quote: Roulette, please be sure to inclue the system, station and sellers name, I would like to get in touch with the player to make a purchase. hehe! I already bought it Fester, insured it and collected the money.. There's no way I'm giving up the guys name or station.. I added him to my buddy list and already have buy orders in at his home station(i think it's his home station, at least) for 15,500isk for the next time he sells one =D Quote: Well I see an atron listed for 30k.. sure thats cheap.. but they are still DOUBLING their money. Umm, Lonewulf, the Atron isn't the focus of my screenshot..
Mr M	Posted - 2003.08.08 06:17:00 - [44] Quote: What would you do if the miners all of a sudden decided that to hell with NPC price, we are going to sell Trit for 10 isk, pry for 40, mex for 160, Iso for 640 ect. Manufactures would go mine their own minerals. Which is what the buying public has basically done. You're perfectly right here. I usualy sell the things I build with 10% profit. Not to undercut the other builders but to prevent that people start to build their own things. As long as they think my prices are ok they'll come back and buy more. Even if someone is selling for a lower price than me some will buy from me because they don't want to do 10 jumps just to save a few isk. http://orecalc.evegeek.com \| http://www.evegeek.com
Fester Addams	Posted - 2003.08.08 06:49:00 - [45] Roulette two points, 1: Naturaly I didnt think you would tell me the name station and so forth :) it would be verry silly of you. 2: Be easy on the insurance thing, especially as you post that you do it, the odds are the devs are going to come in and rightfully call it an exploit, it could get you into troubble :/ Have fun blasting ships.
Lexington Cabot	Posted - 2003.08.08 07:26:00 - [46] For those who sell Battleships Or any ship for that matterà. Hi, remember us? We are the people who buy your ships. Now many of us will go for whatever price you sell your ships at, but many of us will not. We will wait until someone comes along with a better deal. We do not need to fly around in a battleship. But you need us to buy them. You can price fix all you want but thereÆs too many people selling ships, and none of you are in much of a position to dictate any kind of pricing to us the buyer. You can try but in the end one of you will undercut the other and we will continue to benefit from even more lower prices.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.08.08 08:13:00 - [47] Edited by: Jash Illian on 08/08/2003 08:13:28 Quote: Quote: Thankfully there aren't that many BS BP copies floating around.. Maybe it won't become a problem.. espiecally with the new patch. I agree completely with what you just said. I for one hope that either the Cartel wins this or CCP fix a way to stop it. I said it before and I'll say it again: People will sell the licensed copies for whatever they think their time is worth. With no mineral cost + no mineral aquisition time + no delivery hassles + ability to manufacture for personal use, it's a bargain for a blueprint owner to sell my tiny corp a tempest 1 shot copy for 20m. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.08.08 08:31:00 - [48] "hehe! I already bought it Fester, insured it and collected the money.. There's no way I'm giving up the guys name or station.." ... You do realize the exact location of the station in question is shown on that screenshot in bold bright letters, together with the system, constellation and region.... right?... ;s
Shredder	Posted - 2003.08.08 08:46:00 - [49] FREEEE MARKETTTT, why would i price fix when theres a shortage of demand for me and I can outstrip your supply
Korben Dallas	Posted - 2003.08.08 10:10:00 - [50] GUYS THIS IS SUPPLY VS DEMAND... you cant control demand and i doubt u can control supply cos if someone undercuts you they get most of the business. So plz dont harp on about this cartel rubbish.. it simply wont work... and if it does then the Big profits you make invite more people to come undercut u... stop banging your head on the table! :P Aikon-Systems
Temerlyn	Posted - 2003.08.08 10:10:00 - [51] Cool i started a thread that has gone for more than one page.
Roulette	Posted - 2003.08.08 12:49:00 - [52] Quote: ... You do realize the exact location of the station in question is shown on that screenshot in bold bright letters, together with the system, constellation and region.... right?... ;s You do realize that I was searching for the best price in the region, right?
Roulette	Posted - 2003.08.08 12:53:00 - [53] Quote: 2: Be easy on the insurance thing, especially as you post that you do it, the odds are the devs are going to come in and rightfully call it an exploit, it could get you into troubble :/ Umm, Fester, please explain to me where there's an exploit being used? Is it me searching for and buying ships that are being sold for stupidly low prices? Or is it the morons selling ships for a third of thier mineral cost?
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.08.08 13:01:00 - [54] "You do realize that I was searching for the best price in the region, right?" Yes; which, combined with the knowledge of the region in question and of the fact you've placed a purchase order at what you consider to be the seller's home station for specific type of the ship at specific price, might come handy. :s
Roulette	Posted - 2003.08.08 13:09:00 - [55] Quote: Yes; which, combined with the knowledge of the region in question and of the fact you've placed a purchase order at what you consider to be the seller's home station for specific type of the ship at specific price, might come handy. :s Yes, I'm sure it would, if you knew what station I placed the order at. Unless of course, you think I determined where the imicus was being sold from, took the time to move 4 of my ships there, then opened the market screen again to take a screenshot, all the while hoping nobody bought the imi before i had a chance to take a pic..
Fester Addams	Posted - 2003.08.08 13:50:00 - [56] Roulette, I dont know if you are aware thet the devs have already adressed the insurance fraud buisness once? However aparently an exploit on eve is defined as somthing that is used for gain not as intended, I very seriously doubt it was intended that you should be able to buy the ship and insurance for less than the fallout. The problem with insurance however is not the prices with the ships, its how it works, at the moment it is based on the base mineral cost, thats moronic, it should be based on the current average price, just have the server monitor what is the current average price for the item in question and base the policy on that, the cost would be a percentage of that. After all thats how it works in the real life, I meen if you buy a car for X the insurance agent will not look at the car and say well it costs Y to build it so if you smash it you get 50% of Y. No they are going to say the market value of the item is X and if you smash it you get out so and so much of X This would meen as ships drop in prices so do the insurance policies. If you then manage to get your hands on a cheep ship and rip the agency off then well its on the sellers head isnt it. If you keep the insurance policy as is then people will simply start building ships and destroying them themselves for the insurance... wich WOULD be an exploit. Hmmm maby that isnt such a bad idea, get a newbie alt, set upp production just inside a popular gate camp and fly out there repetedly.
Roulette	Posted - 2003.08.08 13:59:00 - [57] Edited by: Roulette on 08/08/2003 14:39:44 Quote: The problem with insurance however is not the prices with the ships, its how it works, at the moment it is based on the base mineral cost, thats moronic, it should be based on the current average price, just have the server monitor what is the current average price for the item in question and base the policy on that, the cost would be a percentage of that. Actually, that would allow people to exploit the system by first inflating the average price by selling ships to themselves at enormous prices, buying insurance, then deflating average prices by selling to themselves at 1 isk. Quote: If you keep the insurance policy as is then people will simply start building ships and destroying them themselves for the insurance... wich WOULD be an exploit. Umm, you do realize you're contradicting yourself, correct? insurance payout on a vexor = 4,377,499. I already stated that I can sell the minerals I need to build a vexor for almost 5mil, but we can use CCP's amount.. So, instead of selling the minerals for 4,377,499, a person builds a vexor with the materials, buys insurance and destroys it to receive 4,377,499.. but wait, they firt had to purchase the policy for 1,313,250. So, instead of getting 4,377,499 in the fist place by selling the materials, they destroy the ship and gain only 3,064,249 after purchasing insurance.. they've basically screwed themselves out of 1.3 million.. Tell me again why anyone would want to lose money this way?
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.08.08 14:55:00 - [58] "Yes, I'm sure it would, if you knew what station I placed the order at. Unless of course, you think I determined where the imicus was being sold from, took the time to move 4 of my ships there, then opened the market screen again to take a screenshot, all the while hoping nobody bought the imi before i had a chance to take a pic.." Actually no, was thinking more along the lines of the handy region-wide buy orders scan which is available under the 'demand' tab.... ... Well that and maybe the market 'history' data, can be quite valuable although usually requires too much jumping around to make it really worth. :s
Roulette	Posted - 2003.08.08 15:27:00 - [59] Edited by: Roulette on 08/08/2003 15:30:01 Quote: Actually no, was thinking more along the lines of the handy region-wide buy orders scan which is available under the 'demand' tab.... Hmm, so why did you originally say "You do realize the exact location of the station in question is shown on that screenshot in bold bright letters" However, I wasn't aware that you could specify a price to search for when looking at buy orders region-wide.. afaik, you can only see best buy/sell price and amount available.. Oh, and yes.. the history function is quite nice :) It'll be even better when it actually shows reliable information ;)

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