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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Temerlyn
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Posted - 2003.08.07 11:12:00 -
[1]
It's as simple as this
If we get into a price selling war with each other Battleships will fall the same way as cruisers and become useless to sell.
If you sell battleships get together with others and sell for an agreed price across the table, this way we can keep the market stable for all the sellers, you might not sell as quickly as you wanted to, but this will mean we can keep selling ships in definately till every corps has there own BS BP's
Currently we sell dominix BS's
We will soon sell Scorpions
If you sell either of these contact me ingame and ill try and get everyone to set an agreed price.
So far a couple of people have agreed to a set price for Domis.
And yes this should be the Production forum or something but i wanna make sure people read this.
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Elis Reik
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Posted - 2003.08.07 11:21:00 -
[2]
This always seems like a good idea in theory but it just doesn't work. If there are twenty players selling Dominixs for 60 million isk, and I have my pick, there will be players offering to go as low as 58 million to attract my business. This doesn't seem like a big problem at the time but people gradually expect to get these lower prices and as a result, things snowball.
It only takes one weak link in the chain to greatly disadvantage everyone interested in your idea. I've accumulated a lot of experience finding these "weak links" and have little problem getting good prices on pretty much anything I buy.
The simple fact is, people want your business, especially with BYOMs and BYOM + Isks. There's no need for them to mine the ore themselves, all it does is tie up the blueprint. This may be enforcable within an alliance (if one was extremely organized) but alliance members would complain they should be getting a better deal internally
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Josephine
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Posted - 2003.08.07 11:21:00 -
[3]
Isn't that alot of energy wasted on a weird effort aslong as corps such as Playboy sell Bship BP copies for the price of a Bship. Filling one hole in a sinking ship when the 3 guys next to you are drilling new holes must become rather frustrating...
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Temerlyn
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Posted - 2003.08.07 11:21:00 -
[4]
One can only try
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Cell Satimo
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Posted - 2003.08.07 11:29:00 -
[5]
There is already a group of players addressing this, whom you may want to join. Read the "Trade Federation" thread under events, or join the "Trade Federation" channel.
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Join eve-webring.com to promote your site. |
Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.08.07 11:34:00 -
[6]
Yes you are right, if the manufacturers get into a price war then prices will drop and as you underbid each other the cost for a new BS will drop to what some people will consider acceptable.
I can truely say now that IF I was part of a large ship building corp and IF said corp started to get competition then I would do what every corp in a trust or monopoly situation has done since the start of time, get competition, make sure my ships are the ones bought.
As I the consumer can not choose to buy specifically from a specific seller as I cant find out who is selling untill after the sale you have no leverage to boost your sales.
In short BS will go the same way as the others on ste simple reason you want to get the cash, its not smart but there are too many players on the market and there is a huge profit margin, especially with max reacerched BP's and skills.
The only thing that will block the drop of BS's is the isk you can get out of the minerals on the market, there will be a break even figure, atm this figure is defined by mineral costs and sellability ships will level out at a few milion above that price.
My sugestion to the big corps is to start building a reputation, take TTi for example, if they would start adding non physical bonuses to their sales they might draw more cash, for example if you buy a BS from them then you are placed on their help if close by list for a day or two, if you get cornered in your BS by say 5 PC pirate BS's and are not on their permanent KOS list then they will if possible come to your aid and break up the blocade alowing the customer to escape.
If a corp is the buyer then the corp might be allowed to, again if a suitable TTi force is near by, call in a blockade breaking force.
The action to break up the blocade does in reality not cost anything for the seller unless they loose ships but I would gladly pay a few more isk for a BS if I knew the seller cared about the buyers well being.
As for the prices, they will still plumet, somthing that I think is great, cheers.
Btw, you are a producer with quite a bit of influence as you have a BS BP, I have offgame seen references to fuzzy dice BP's what are they, you or anyone know?
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Stromen
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Posted - 2003.08.07 11:36:00 -
[7]
Price fixing - don't you just love it. Whoever sells for the lowest will get my business - it's as simple as that.
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Fang
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Posted - 2003.08.07 11:43:00 -
[8]
The price items will sell for is cost plus profit.
Profit levels start high then drop as more and more of that item become available.
Its called supply and demand.
It seems in Eve that the natural price of items = Base Mineral Cost (at around average market prices) + around 10-20%.
If you are getting more than this because you have high production efficency or there are limited amounts of the item on the market then your doing well.
The sale of rare items is the only sustained market at the moment.
The market can only grow and achieve balance if items are consistently being lost, destroyed or wear out.
WAR is a good market stimulant.
Pirates are also a reasonable booster.
GM tweaking would also play a part in stimulating the economy.
A GROWING new player base is also a good market stimulant.
Draw your own conclusions.
Fang
Sirius Corp
Master Of His Own Pants
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2003.08.07 11:50:00 -
[9]
The Space Invaders are proud to say that we refuse to join this alliance of greed! We will continue selling people their Battleships back at 20-50mil per ship, no matter what class it is!
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Lucas De'Thal
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Posted - 2003.08.07 12:02:00 -
[10]
if you guys all set the same price. how do you pick who should make the sale?
if i see 10 people sell a battleship for 60 mil on trade. how do you choose who gets to make the profit? round robin?? 
and, "space invaders" how much is a scorpion cost?
______________________________________________
Hellmar > sorry for the attitude, playing a n00b character through the current state just left me a bit bitter
dev chat: Mar 18, 2004
hellmar> "you lot are just so clever you have a good history for out smarting us :-S "
dev chat: Feb 12, 2004 |
Don Niels
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Posted - 2003.08.07 14:04:00 -
[11]
It's all linked to the dropping mineral prices.
It almost the only thing to sell and get some profit in this game, if you are a freelancer or noob, so therefore everybody is selling minerals and the demand for them ain't great enough.
Personally I don't care to make personal deals, going 10 jumps, just to sell one snotty small modified gun for 20k isk. Thereby the only way to get rid of loot, is to recycle it, because you can't use the Market to sell modified items.
Maybe loot should be more about trade goods and lesser guns. This would make the trade goods good for something at least, and possible raise mineral prices as the demand grows, when everobody don't sell minerals.
Have fun
Don Niels
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Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.08.07 14:09:00 -
[12]
Wrong Mineral cost should not be what determines The ship cost.
I think the price should be by 2 things The cost of the Insurence and the payoff. Otherwise it becomes dumb to sell them.
So for example take an Omen.... payoff is 4.5M and cost for insurence is 1M Therfore it should be sold for 5.5M
Wouldn't it be smarter if you had an better BP and maxed skill to keep the price high so you make more. At the very least The price should be higher then The Insurence payoff.
With a good BP and maxed skill I have seen corps get the mineral cost to 2mill for an Omen. And what do they do they sell it for 2 mill. The Insure payoff is 4 mill.
lets do the math and see just how dumb that really is.
It still takes alot of Tri and pyr with takes awhile to mine. so.....
Mineing the minerals for one Omen 1 - 5 hours ( if waiting to a batch of 3 to produce - 10 to 14 hours.)
Production time 1.5 to 2.5 hours each.
You make your 2 mill profit yepy...
Now my turn....
Time it takes to buy Omen - 2 secs at 2mill
Time it takes to insure Omen - 2 secs at 1mill
Time it takes to have Omen destoyed - 5 to 10 mins
Profit I make 4.5 mill
Look destroy 2 buy 2 get one free. raise and recyle.
which one of us just made more and at whos expence.
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Athren Soulsteal
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Posted - 2003.08.07 14:12:00 -
[13]
What a great idea!
Yes I would like all my fellow competion,, err I mean ship builders to join with this guy and set your proffit margens to 2000%.
Now you have to stick to your guns and fight the urge to sell anything.,, errr I mean underprice any thing.
Remember your time is worth 20 mil isk per sale so ride it out.
----------------------
psss.. Hey buddy want to buy a ship? I have the best deals in the universe now. Which battle ship you want, it's 10 mil for a 1 run copy and you build it yourself .
 This post has be saterized for your protection.
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Nicholas Marshal
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Posted - 2003.08.07 14:16:00 -
[14]
Why is everyone obsessed with Battleships ? This game is not just a race for the next biggest ship ffs.
I mean, what will you all do once you are in your Battleships ? lol.
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.08.07 14:17:00 -
[15]
Edited by: The Wretch on 07/08/2003 14:20:14
Here we go again with one of these threads on how the sky is falling on the bship market.
Most ppl who buy bships establish a long term business relationship that company producing the bships and will get a great low price for continued business to begin with.
The large corps with great manufacturing and mining capabilities will make good profit on selling bships at a low price and in turn kill competition from wanna be I got me a bship bp copy.
We have 2 corps we will buy bships from consistently and they treat us to a very nice price and service (Techell and RUS).
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Scragg
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Posted - 2003.08.07 14:18:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Scragg on 07/08/2003 14:19:40
It's simple. Don't undercut each other. Match prices, don't beat prices and you can keep your profit margin up.
Why we are obcessed with battleships...
ship envy.
Scragg, Tyrell Corporation
Vice-Director Military Operations |
eriq
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Posted - 2003.08.07 15:22:00 -
[17]
lol, silly socialists when will you ever learn. in a pure free market economy you cannot fix prices no matter how hard you try. the price of a given object will ALWAYS rise and fall with demand and supply.
let me illustrate the folly of your ways:
if you were successful in your attempt to artificially raise the price of a given object and i wanted said object. i would just obtain the bp (original or copy) and build it myself, then seeing the price where it is, i'd undercut your price, just a bit to make up for the bp cost and maybe even turn a profit. since i'm not the only capitalist in the game, others will do the same, you'll then, either stop producing or lower your prices and... tadaa! the free market reigns despite your cartel-like attempts.
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Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.08.07 15:48:00 -
[18]
According to the Dev Chat They endorse the Trade Federations actions. and feel the same way about the market.
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Janet Foster
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Posted - 2003.08.07 15:52:00 -
[19]
Low prices are bad for the Companies but excellent news for the Consumers.
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Daesdemona
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Posted - 2003.08.07 15:57:00 -
[20]
I will GIVE you money if you come pick up my battelship, Jove prime system.
-----------------------------------------------
Bart: "Do you even have a job any more?"
Homer: "I think its obvious that I Don't"
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Roulette
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Posted - 2003.08.07 16:39:00 -
[21]
 Quote:
i would just obtain the bp (original or copy) and build it myself, then seeing the price where it is, i'd undercut your price, just a bit to make up for the bp cost and maybe even turn a profit. since i'm not the only capitalist in the game, others will do the same, you'll then, either stop producing or lower your prices and... tadaa! the free market reigns despite your cartel-like attempts.
And when does all the undercutting stop? When BS's are for sale at 2mil? 200k? Don't pretend it can't possibly happen.. I bought a Thorax last night for 300k..
That's why the market is all screwed up now for frigates and cruisers.. There's nothing 'socialist' going on.. It's an attempt to keep the market for BS's from going into the gutter like frigates and cruisers have. People aren't lowering their prices to be competitive, they're lowering their prices just for the sake of saying they sold something. It's sheer idiocy right now.. I can check the market at any given time and find plenty of frigates and cruisers for sale at prices significantly less than the insurance payoff amount, sometimes at less than a quarter the amount.. I routinely buy all the ones I'm capable of flying and turn right around and destroy them for the insurance..
Thankfully there aren't that many BS BP copies floating around.. Maybe it won't become a problem..
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Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.08.07 16:41:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Thankfully there aren't that many BS BP copies floating around.. Maybe it won't become a problem..
espiecally with the new patch.
I agree completely with what you just said. I for one hope that either the Cartel wins this or CCP fix a way to stop it.
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.08.07 18:15:00 -
[23]
Roulette:
I dont see the problem, if someone wants to sell their BS f÷r 2isk and a can of quafe who are you or I to say they cant?
People who sell ships undecutting the "real" prices take the loss themselves, if a BS is worth 80M then if I sell one for 20M I make a net loss of 60M, thats comming out of my wallet, wich meens the market is saticefied, that is what market ecconomy is all about.
If people are willing to sell at a certain price then that is the price it will be sold at.
Then the devs suporting the trade federation, fine let them verbally suport it but since they came clean on other for most players more critical problems simply stating work it out for your selves, we dont get involved... why should they get involved now?
Lastly then the above mentioned insurance fraud, if you can afford to sell a ship at way lower than the price it costs to take out the insurance then there is somthing seriously wrong with the insurance agency.
Lets say you amend it for the consumer, whats to stop the ship building corps from abusing it?
If someone is stupid enough to sell me 3 ships for the price of one of their insurance fallout it is not a problem, the seller takes the hit, if you can produce the ship at a cost lower than insurance fallout you have a problem.
As for ship prices, what do BS go for nowadays, being a smalltime player I am just recently comming into the kind of cash to even consider buying one, what does the minimatar BS cost?
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Endureth
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Posted - 2003.08.07 18:21:00 -
[24]
If you can't compete then you shouldn't be making the battleships. Whoever sells cheapests gets my sale. Bottom line.
-E
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Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.08.07 18:21:00 -
[25]
The market should be regulated. I am forced to sell below INS price becuase of ppl who aren't really aware that its really dumb. If you want to do it and are aware its your loss fine. Thats how I make money. Call in insurence fraud or whatever you wish. But if you sell cheep ships I'm the onw making profit at your expence.
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Skillz
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Posted - 2003.08.07 18:26:00 -
[26]
It's called Capitalism. I want more capitalism and less whining.
Keep on flaming, lamers.
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Aleister Crowley
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Posted - 2003.08.07 18:44:00 -
[27]
Ok everyone knows the potential for insurance fraud. For those who sell below insurance costs ins+payout is doing themselves a disservice. They could destroy the ships themselves.
I have already done that to a certain degree, do region wide looks for ship types find those under ins+payout and go there, buy and destroy the ship.
The key is that the amount of profit you get from insurance fraud is not as much as you can usually get. The key being mega/zyd which can be a pain in the butt to acquire and mega is well over the NPC curve of mineral prices.
The minerals NPCs buy is simply a measuring stick. It's like people agreeing that the distance between point a and b will from here on be called a meter. So the NPC constant is the minimum of what a mineral could be. We already see that mega and often times zyd are above these numbers because players realize they are harder to come by and more rare.
It is all capitolism. Now what the original poster suggests is something like what OPEC has done, which is fine, but you will have to be able to enforce the price fix or the system will be doomed. Maybe try declaring war on those who don't conform?
BTW: What do you do in a BS? Well solo, the toughest NPCs, mine twice as fast as a cruiser and kill player cruisers before they can travel 6k distance. Plenty of reasons to own one I think :)
'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law' |
Roulette
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Posted - 2003.08.07 18:46:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Roulette on 07/08/2003 18:52:04
Quote:
Roulette:
I dont see the problem, if someone wants to sell their BS f÷r 2isk and a can of quafe who are you or I to say they cant?
The problem is that the market becomes saturated with ships that are priced for far less than their material worth.
You're right in that anyone can sell for anything they like and take as much of a loss as they want. But they *are* hurting people other than themselves. They're hurting the small corps who can't afford to sell ships for less than they'd get just selling the ore. they're hurting the researchers who have no reason to research BPs anymore because of people selling 10k frigates and 100k cruisers. They're hurting the solo producers. They're hurting the overall population which is soon going to find itself with lacking anything to save up for, and possible nothing to even spend any money on since all the legitimate producers/researchers have quit in disgust.
Why would anyone want to startup/join a production corp these days? You can't make any money doing it if you have to compete with people who are willing to take a 100% loss on every sale. Same for being a researcher. What's the point in researching mineral/production efficiency if the producer is already selling items for less than the mineral cost?
I've asked people who I've bought frigates and cruisers from(after tracking them down) why they sold something for so cheap, and almost all of them said they did it because saw another priced a couple hundred isk higher, or because they wanted to sell theirs first. Not a one of the people who told me that actually realized they could have made more money simply selling the materials they mined for the ship they built.
It's got nothing to do with capitalism, or greed, or competition. It's Ignorance and stupidity.
Quote:
Lastly then the above mentioned insurance fraud, if you can afford to sell a ship at way lower than the price it costs to take out the insurance then there is somthing seriously wrong with the insurance agency.
That's the whole point. There's nothing wrong with the insurance agency. The problem is with the individuals selling these items who either don't know, or don't care that they're selling too low.
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Roulette
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Posted - 2003.08.07 19:00:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Ok everyone knows the potential for insurance fraud.
I'm not really sure why it's being called fraud.
Nobody's taking out insurance for more than a ship is worth.. It's impossible to do so, unless someone knows a way to take out multiple policies on a ship.
what's going on here is that people are selling $60,000(wholesale) cars for 300 bucks and the buyer is putting total coverage insurance on it then driving out to a place full of known criminals so it will get stolen/stripped. Meanwhile, the legitimate manufacturer can't even sell for a couple thousand above wholesale because of all the morons selling at a loss.
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TheJanitor
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Posted - 2003.08.07 19:39:00 -
[30]
<Reads this thread>
<rolls eyes>
<Lowers his BS prices by 2M>
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