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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Don ZOLA
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Posted - 2005.11.09 14:37:00 -
[361]
look mom 4S amblem on official UN site. but mom didnt some soldiers wearing that amblem did some war crimes ? isnt UN then terrorist organisation aswell if they support warcrimes mom ?
OR WE CANT GLOBALIZE EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE ON WHAT COUPLE OF PERSONS DID MOM?
-no son we cant.
k mom now im gonna spend some quality time reading UN conventions and Human rights and affair sections on UN site to find how someone could act against one company which insulted hundreds of its customers by calling them terrorist and whatever for using symbol accepted by UN.
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Agent Kenshin
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Posted - 2005.11.09 14:42:00 -
[362]
Edited by: Agent Kenshin on 09/11/2005 14:44:51
 Originally by: w0rmy
A corp named directly after a band, a band which advocates hate crimes, and Often sin gs about Killing Cops
OK!!!!!
A corp named after National Pride
BAD BAD BAD EVILL!!!!!!
Does someone want to hand these guys a clue.
/emote hands you a clue. Go back to Seleenes orginal post on the name of our corp. We know about the band actually i didnt until i read his post but Sel didnt make the corp to be named after the band... Its a little weird considering he lives in Germany....
Edit. One other your corp name also has some ties to a relgion and religous beleifs.. If you dont get it i speak of 12 men.
Originally by: MAXSuicide
only carebears call pvpers 'greifers'
ehehehh....
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Trooper B99
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Posted - 2005.11.09 14:44:00 -
[363]
Originally by: Don ZOLA
didnt wanted to start new issue thought but u asked for it. since when those documents u gave r velid proofes ?
Indeed, I wasn't able to find anything and yes I have read your post, but then I haven't been going out of my way to research the points in the US court system nor at the UN where 5 of those testimonies were from. However, considering the amount of reports from the region both via news media and in subsequent war crimes trials relating to the use of the 4S symbol as a terror symbol, it is something that bears close scrutiny.
You yourself admit that the 4s symbol was used by Serbian militias/police and by people that commited war crimes.
I'm not and haven't suggested there is a "4s" organisation, but the national symbol appears to have been proudly used by some terrible people in terrible ways during the conflict, or don't you agree Don Zola?
I would tend to say that that use can and does taint the 4s symbol. Do you bear that symbol just as proudly knowing what was done under it by people who bore it while they commited war crimes? I do not suggest that you knew or took part in anything like that, I merely ask if you think that it is still the same things attached to it as it was 40 or even 100 years ago.
It is still a proud traditional Serbian national symbol, but it sure as hell has more baggage now.
Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.11.09 14:49:00 -
[364]
Originally by: super4lt
Originally by: Avon
I previously provided a link which demonstrates that the UK legal system does not agree with your interpretation.
The UK legal system is irrelevant in this case
Read it in the context of the post.
______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Don ZOLA
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Posted - 2005.11.09 14:53:00 -
[365]
Originally by: Trooper B99
Originally by: Don ZOLA
didnt wanted to start new issue thought but u asked for it. since when those documents u gave r velid proofes ?
Indeed, I wasn't able to find anything and yes I have read your post, but then I haven't been going out of my way to research the points in the US court system nor at the UN where 5 of those testimonies were from. However, considering the amount of reports from the region both via news media and in subsequent war crimes trials relating to the use of the 4S symbol as a terror symbol, it is something that bears close scrutiny.
You yourself admit that the 4s symbol was used by Serbian militias/police and by people that commited war crimes.
I'm not and haven't suggested there is a "4s" organisation, but the national symbol appears to have been proudly used by some terrible people in terrible ways during the conflict, or don't you agree Don Zola?
I would tend to say that that use can and does taint the 4s symbol. Do you bear that symbol just as proudly knowing what was done under it by people who bore it while they commited war crimes? I do not suggest that you knew or took part in anything like that, I merely ask if you think that it is still the same things attached to it as it was 40 or even 100 years ago.
It is still a proud traditional Serbian national symbol, but it sure as hell has more baggage now.
every country which was in wars had ppl doing warcrimes under their country "sign" be it flag or amblem. so if CCP and any other person/company globalizes nations after some things some ppl of that nation did then they should do it for everyone. other way it is racism. ****s were germans they had german insignias on they uniforms, chance all corps that have german in name, Foreign legion (right name?) did crimes aswell, change all corps withFrance in name, us soldiers did crimes in iraq/vietnam change all corps with that...it goes on and on... if u gonna do it that way ccp then do it. but if u do that just to 4S then that is discrimination.
and yes trooper im proud of that symbol which is much more then 100 years old. acts of some ppl do make me ashamed but i wont forsake my nation becouse of couple twisted minds nor i will petition any other corp cuz of crimes some members of their nation did.
if it was really offensive would UN allow it ?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Trooper B99
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Posted - 2005.11.09 14:56:00 -
[366]
Quote:
Being offended does not depend on the intention of the offender. It fully depends on the opinion and interpretation of the offended.
In my opinion the "S.A.S" in "S.A.S corp" represents the military wings, whether you like it or not. But according to CCP I am not supposed to be have that opinion
Offense and what people feel about something doesn't come into the descion making process, only in deciding initially whether or not to petition the name . . . given that its not a greifer petition. Only the rules laid down in the naming policy matter. As S.A.S. corp was able to show that they didn't break the EULA with their corp name they were allowed to keep it.
Originally by: Marcus Aurelius
How many of you believe that it is a coincidence that these two corporations, active in the same general area of the eeve map, both known for their policy of shooting stuff, get petitioned for a namechange based on very dubious argumentation within two weeks of eachother ?
How many of you people who respond here belive these petitions were real, and not mean to grief or as a prank ?
Meh, I have no idea. Yes, its possible, but then again, so are alot of things. The 4s one after seeing some of the allegations could easily be a real one as it breaks the EULA, S.A.S. i would be more inclined to see as a griefer petition as it doesn't break the EULA.
Then again, they could equally be greifer petitions. *shrugs*
Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
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Dr Slaughter
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Posted - 2005.11.09 14:58:00 -
[367]
Originally by: Don ZOLA
isnt UN then terrorist organisation aswell if they support warcrimes mom?
Certain people would agree with that statement.
Originally by: Kalsius Dakalsai
These INTENDED acts impaired the operation of the comuters running the game. It is therefore a criminal act.
Writing that someone has committed a criminal act is potentially libelous and that's something that you may well find you shouldn't be doing if you read your ISP's terms of use. I think we should just ignore your dubious understanding of the 'law'.....
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Agent Kenshin
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:01:00 -
[368]
Edited by: Agent Kenshin on 09/11/2005 15:07:28
Originally by: Dianabolic
GUYS!!
FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME!!!
4S IS NOT AN ORGANIZATION, IT IS A PHRASE!!!!!!!
Like:
"United we stand, together we fall".
jesus christ, READING COMPREHENSION FTW????
Quoted for extreme truth...
Going along with what Diana said. 4S is a slogan and a phrase. Serbia is the country. The symbol of the county is the coat of arms that everyone has posted which happens to have 4S on it or more specifically 4C. 4S actually emulates anyone who is serbian not the country or organization.
But then again so many double standards here and so many other names that are far worse than 4S or S.A.S.
Originally by: MAXSuicide
only carebears call pvpers 'greifers'
ehehehh....
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:01:00 -
[369]
Edited by: Hllaxiu on 09/11/2005 15:01:15
I think CCP needs some of these before RMR if this keeps up...
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:03:00 -
[370]
Originally by: Avon
Right.
So if I head to Jita and dump hundreds of shuttles because I think players might like a free ship, that is fine?
My intention would be to give people free stuff, all the lag I created would just be an unfortunate side effect?
I would be using the same mechanic, in the same system, with the same ultimate result, but because I had a legitimate reason it would be okay?
Well, there are plenty of other ways to give people ships for free that would be far less disruptive. So in that situation, you would be expected to use them. If you launched them slowly, you'd have been expected to see the lag problem building, and stop. If you were silly enough to launch them all at once, you'd be expected to clear up the mess, or at least ask for GM help, and be co-operative. You'd then probably get away with a warning not to do it again.
Of course, that is not what happened in Jita. The effects it had were not unexpected by the protesters. Some of them were openly threatening Oveur in local with the consequences of the protest and continuation of the shuttle spamming. They knew exactly what they were doing.
You can do anything. But you can't do everything. |
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Slaveabuser
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:03:00 -
[371]
Edited by: Slaveabuser on 09/11/2005 15:03:20
Originally by: Trooper B99
You yourself admit that the 4s symbol was used by Serbian militias/police and by people that commited war crimes.
And the ****s(Natzis) used the swastika as a symbol. But its really a holy symbol in Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism.
Your point is void.
Having to live on, one knows better than to value life too much.
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Kalsius Dakalsai
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:04:00 -
[372]
Whether I think they did it is probably irrelevant, its for a judge to decide, and it doesn't take much to actually read the Act in question and see the words under Section 3 state that the impairing of a computers operation is a criminal act.
Again, as with the decision taken by CCP over quite a wide ranging section in the EULA, its left to the interpretation of the law to determine whether any wrongdoing occurred.
------------------------------------------------
"Life is but a Dream on the road to the reality of Death.. Now is the time to wake
up......" - Ryaekk K. Dakalsai
Kalsius Dakalsai - General Operations Officer |
Xthril Ranger
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:04:00 -
[373]
I was just wondering , how many crimes have been done by christians during the millenia. How many crimes have been done in the name of christianity? Should all references to the cross or the bible be banned? The name Eve?
hirr - xthril |
Slaveabuser
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:06:00 -
[374]
Originally by: Xthril Ranger
I was just wondering , how many crimes have been done by christians during the millenia. How many crimes have been done in the name of christianity? Should all references to the cross or the bible be banned? The name Eve?
Indeed. By this logic CCP should remove all crosses from corp logos.
I think CCP shot themselves in the foot.
Having to live on, one knows better than to value life too much.
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:07:00 -
[375]
Originally by: Kalsius Dakalsai
Whether I think they did it is probably irrelevant, its for a judge to decide, and it doesn't take much to actually read the Act in question and see the words under Section 3 state that the impairing of a computers operation is a criminal act.
Again, as with the decision taken by CCP over quite a wide ranging section in the EULA, its left to the interpretation of the law to determine whether any wrongdoing occurred.
Like I said, a judge has already ruled on a similar case, and a link was provided.
Also, your corp name is apparently in violation of the EULA.
______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:09:00 -
[376]
first of all, there is only 1 emblem banned internationally from use which is the "hakenkreuz" of 3rd reich germany.
All other emblems are in current way or form legal and a discussion of the national flag of x country should be allowed over another would be clearly against any principle of equality.
Lets just make a short step into history and see how hypocritical every discussion about national symbols is.
Union Jack - GB / England - warcrimes during imperialism
russian flag - Execution of polish intelligencia, "political commandos" kgb, gulag, sibirian labourcamps.
American flag - "murder" on indians, warcrimes of "guys in uniform" in nearly every conflict their army was involved in.
German insignias - (myself beeing german) Holocaust + + + +, tho our current flag is a remake of the republic from 1914, despite these flags also beeing used in nationalist marches until mid 1930s.
Etc etc.
The conclusion of all this is quiet simple. No flag in history is untainted and no national history or symbol is free from abuse and doubt. All it takes is a "few" insane criminals commiting crimes against humanity. Something the silent majority neither can prevent nor has an input in.
Does this mean that a group has to lose its national feelings and unity because a small group (even 100 ppl are enough) are able to taint centuries of proud history ?
The internet is a free space, as soon as you start to rob ppl of their national identities you commit an act of racism. Having said that the only group rightfully disadvantaged are the germans since we commited a crime bigger then anything history has produced so far and hopefully ever will in a very short period of time.
While i agree that a naming after military units is clearly against the eula i think that if u start to cut down national feelings we will have to remove all "polish, german, french, russion (red) and other national groups" as all of them have had their insignias and name tainted throughout history, some far worse then the serbs.
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s4mp3r0r
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:09:00 -
[377]
Originally by: Don ZOLA
look mom
wow that solved it.
check mate CCP, or do you want to explain to us the UN is guilty of crimes against humanity?
Wonder who owns the UN corp ticker ?
Proud CEO of the I have a mirel yirrin corpse and do freaky things to it club.
Convo me ingame for details on how to join, and a free " I ♥ mirel yirrin Ö" Bumpersticker!! |
Trooper B99
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:11:00 -
[378]
Originally by: Don ZOLA
every country which was in wars had ppl doing warcrimes under their country "sign" be it flag or amblem.
Good point and a pretty intersting one. However, I personally see doing something under a national flag is one thing, doing it under a nationalist symbol is another. I tend to seperate the whole Serbian flag as a national symbol and the 4S symbol as a nationalist symbol. I guess that goes to part of the whole argument looking at it, are the two terms seperate or totally integrated with each other and cannot be removed? I would tend to use the former as the symbol has been around a long time compared to the flag.
You do have a point that there was no "4s" unit or such, but it appears that the symbol is/was associated with the milita/policemen.
Quote:
and yes trooper im proud of that symbol which is much more then 100 years old. acts of some ppl do make me ashamed but i wont forsake my nation becouse of couple twisted minds nor i will petition any other corp cuz of crimes some members of their nation did.
I understand and see that you're very proud of your nation and heritage (as all the serbians I've seen in the game are  ), but there were terrible things linked with that 4s sign by sick deranged people.
I don't think CCP are being racist towards the Serbians as some people are making out because they are removing what is a nationalist Serbian symbol (dealing with anything nationalist is always very very touchy), just following their EULA policy which every player has . . or should have read before playing.
As I understand 4s are still in communication in regards this and I am intersted to see what the final, final outcome is.
Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
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Kalsius Dakalsai
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:12:00 -
[379]
lol, cos it says British? I am staying out of the whole name thing Avon =] CCP has policy, they enforce that policy and prolly a lot of people aren't gonna be happy about it...
I've already responded to the link, there is grounds for a case, that case would be heard with its own evidence and facts and a judgement made. I am almost certain the previous ruling would be raised as a case for dismissal but its up to the judge to decide if that ruling is relevant in that case...
Anyways enough RL stuff in games I say, back to the Veldspar!
------------------------------------------------
"Life is but a Dream on the road to the reality of Death.. Now is the time to wake
up......" - Ryaekk K. Dakalsai
Kalsius Dakalsai - General Operations Officer |
Agent Kenshin
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:18:00 -
[380]
Troops 4S isnt a symbol. The symbols are 4C and thats on a coat of arms. 4S is a slogan thanks to Diana for pointing it out.
Now dont go saying that sayings are symbols of there nations. Because then there are a lot of them floating around.
Originally by: MAXSuicide
only carebears call pvpers 'greifers'
ehehehh....
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Don ZOLA
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:19:00 -
[381]
Originally by: Trooper B99
Originally by: Don ZOLA
every country which was in wars had ppl doing warcrimes under their country "sign" be it flag or amblem.
Good point and a pretty intersting one. However, I personally see doing something under a national flag is one thing, doing it under a nationalist symbol is another. I tend to seperate the whole Serbian flag as a national symbol and the 4S symbol as a nationalist symbol. I guess that goes to part of the whole argument looking at it, are the two terms seperate or totally integrated with each other and cannot be removed? I would tend to use the former as the symbol has been around a long time compared to the flag.
You do have a point that there was no "4s" unit or such, but it appears that the symbol is/was associated with the milita/policemen.
Quote:
and yes trooper im proud of that symbol which is much more then 100 years old. acts of some ppl do make me ashamed but i wont forsake my nation becouse of couple twisted minds nor i will petition any other corp cuz of crimes some members of their nation did.
I understand and see that you're very proud of your nation and heritage (as all the serbians I've seen in the game are ), but there were terrible things linked with that 4s sign by sick deranged people.
I don't think CCP are being racist towards the Serbians as some people are making out because they are removing what is a nationalist Serbian symbol (dealing with anything nationalist is always very very touchy), just following their EULA policy which every player has . . or should have read before playing.
As I understand 4s are still in communication in regards this and I am intersted to see what the final, final outcome is.
check link in that long post i made- flag link. thats official flag of serbia and it has 4S aswell as amblem. its not separeted or anything. 4s is in every thing connected to serbs. its not nationalist symbol its nation symbol. as i said every county has its own sick deranged ppl so why only going on serbs ?
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Trooper B99
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:32:00 -
[382]
Originally by: Agent Kenshin
Troops 4S isnt a symbol. The symbols are 4C and thats on a coat of arms. 4S is a slogan thanks to Diana for pointing it out.
Now dont go saying that sayings are symbols of there nations. Because then there are a lot of them floating around.
I belive s becomes c in cyrilic? I seem to remember someone mentioning that anyways. The 4s/c is both a slogan and a symbol for all intents and purposes, one reason its such a touchy subect.
Quote:
thats official flag of serbia and it has 4S aswell as amblem. its not separeted or anything. 4s is in every thing connected to serbs.
Thats what i'm trying to get at, the symbol 4s is a part of the national flag but it (the 4s) itself is a nationalist symbol in its own right.
Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
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Gerome Doutrande
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:33:00 -
[383]
Originally by: Trooper B99
Originally by: Agent Kenshin
Troops 4S isnt a symbol. The symbols are 4C and thats on a coat of arms. 4S is a slogan thanks to Diana for pointing it out.
Now dont go saying that sayings are symbols of there nations. Because then there are a lot of them floating around.
I belive s becomes c in cyrilic? I seem to remember someone mentioning that anyways. The 4s/c is both a slogan and a symbol for all intents and purposes, one reason its such a touchy subect.
Quote:
thats official flag of serbia and it has 4S aswell as amblem. its not separeted or anything. 4s is in every thing connected to serbs.
Thats what i'm trying to get at, the symbol 4s is a part of the national flag but it (the 4s) itself is a nationalist symbol in its own right.
Can you give a concise definition of a "nationalist symbol" please, and can you also differentiate a national symbol from a nationalist symbol.
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:35:00 -
[384]
Originally by: Gerome Doutrande
Can you give a concise definition of a "nationalist symbol" please, and can you also differentiate a national symbol from a nationalist symbol.
Exactly the point I was going to make.
They are two very different things, and confusing them is bad.
______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Matthew
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:40:00 -
[385]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Gerome Doutrande
Can you give a concise definition of a "nationalist symbol" please, and can you also differentiate a national symbol from a nationalist symbol.
Exactly the point I was going to make.
They are two very different things, and confusing them is bad.
Then surely answering his question, to allow him to not confuse the two would be good
I too would be interested in how you define the two.
You can do anything. But you can't do everything. |
Avon
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:44:00 -
[386]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Gerome Doutrande
Can you give a concise definition of a "nationalist symbol" please, and can you also differentiate a national symbol from a nationalist symbol.
Exactly the point I was going to make.
They are two very different things, and confusing them is bad.
Then surely answering his question, to allow him to not confuse the two would be good
I too would be interested in how you define the two.
The question wasn't aimed at me Matthew, it would have been rude to answer.
Anyway, how come you only reply to my posts? Go find someone else to follow. Shoo little puppy, shoo. Bad doggy. 
______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Kalsius Dakalsai
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:45:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Gerome Doutrande
Can you give a concise definition of a "nationalist symbol" please, and can you also differentiate a national symbol from a nationalist symbol.
Exactly the point I was going to make.
They are two very different things, and confusing them is bad.
Then surely answering his question, to allow him to not confuse the two would be good
I too would be interested in how you define the two.
It will be interesting to see if CCP do define the terms they use in the EULA. They have to try and add a catch all into the EULA to cover themselves but this leads to confusion as with the above definitions... Will they change the EULA, and if they do would it change in the way people expect it to be changed?
------------------------------------------------
"Life is but a Dream on the road to the reality of Death.. Now is the time to wake
up......" - Ryaekk K. Dakalsai
Kalsius Dakalsai - General Operations Officer |
Matthew
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:52:00 -
[388]
Originally by: Avon
The question wasn't aimed at me Matthew, it would have been rude to answer.
Fair enough, but jumping in to say they are different, but not saying how, isn't the most helpful post either
Originally by: Avon
Anyway, how come you only reply to my posts? Go find someone else to follow. Shoo little puppy, shoo. Bad doggy.
 I can't reply to everything, and your posts are well-structured and easy to reply to, however much I disagree with the content sometimes. You're also providing quite a lot of posts
Besides, I'm not just replying to you, I did a whole string of Khaldorn's earlier too.
You can do anything. But you can't do everything. |
Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:53:00 -
[389]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Gerome Doutrande
Can you give a concise definition of a "nationalist symbol" please, and can you also differentiate a national symbol from a nationalist symbol.
Exactly the point I was going to make.
They are two very different things, and confusing them is bad.
Then surely answering his question, to allow him to not confuse the two would be good
I too would be interested in how you define the two.
the problem at hand is that in most cases nationalistic symbols are national symbols as they are from the same cultural circle / background.
In general every national symbol, be it the flag, the hymn, signs/names for units or governmental sections or even for political functions are generally based on the cultural history or background of each country.
In rare cases there is an actual difference between national and nationalistc symbols. In those cases generally those wearing nationalistic symbols are against the the current form of government and use signs of either former (different) stateforms (i.e. the hakenkreus or SS runes in germany) or their own invented symbols which can have a so far unused form in history or no cultural relevance at all, as their form of protest or identification.
In the 4c (s) case there is no "nationalistic" group under any name or form which uses this symbol as a protest. Quiet the opposite, the symbol and the term is cultural history for all serbs not specifically tied to a certain time but throughout their whole history.
That the symbol was used has multiple reasons and would take far more time then im eager to spend so lets just accept that local militias arent equal to a soverõn and internationally accepted state, no matter if they wear his symbols or put some patches on their jackets.
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Trooper B99
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:59:00 -
[390]
Quote:
Can you give a concise definition of a "nationalist symbol" please, and can you also differentiate a national symbol from a nationalist symbol.
I can give you my own definition which is probably wrong but hey, thats what discussions are about.
nationalist symbol: I would say a nationalist symbol is one which is not officially internationally recognised but still has a huge degree of attachment to the population but really only within a specific area/nation.
National symbol are internationally recognised symbols best examples of these are flags/anthems and so on.
I've been trying to look up a diret answer on athe internationally appoved serbian flag but half the sources say that the one with the 4s symbol is unofficial and then i'm reading reports that it was changed sometime in 2004. 
Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
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