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Tier 3 BCs, balance and fitting discussion

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Theodoric Darkwind PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore 35	Posted - 2011.10.22 06:53:00 - [1] - Quote Feel free to voice your opinions over how the new tier 3 BCs should be balanced and some ideas for how they might be set up (in terms of slot layouts, bonuses, etc). Please direct any trolling, goon hate or general QQ to the myriad of QQ threads about the tier 3 BCs in the general discussion section and try to keep this thread constructive.
Ines Tegator Project ELT 18	Posted - 2011.10.22 07:03:00 - [2] - Quote In contrast to their tier 2 counterparts, they should be more specialized, most likely as DPS boats. Otherwise they will just categorically replace everything else. We already have the basic tank/gank split in the existing BC's. The new ones should add a unique function. Using large guns opens them up as obvious sniping platforms; thought should be given to how they will function at close range though and make sure they don't overshadow the other BC's as a do-it-all platform, a role that is already perfectly filled by the tier2 BCs. On that note, tier 1 battlecruisers need more fitting space, so we can use them for things other than ship spinning.
Theodoric Darkwind PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore 35	Posted - 2011.10.22 07:07:00 - [3] - Quote and ill take a first stab at how I think the new BCs should be set up. Tornado - 6/6/5 slot layout, 6 turret hardpoints, projectile gunship, 30m^3 dronebay 30mb bandwidth, like a cane but sacrificing its highslot utility for firepower, intended to shield tank. Should be able to squeeze 800mm ACs on in a typical pvp fit with a modest tank and tackle, or 650 ACs in a heavy tanked fit, or 1200 arty with a modest tank and sebo/TC, or 1400 arty in an instalocking glass cannon (like an instacane but better). Bonuses, 5% large projectile damage and 10% large projectile falloff per level. Gallente BC - 6/5/6 slot layout, 6 turret hardpoints, hybrid gunship, 75m^3 dronebay 50mb bandwidth, can shield or armor tank like the myrmidon but aside from that is pretty much like a brutix on roids. Should be able to fit ions/350 rails with a modest tank and tackle, electrons/dual 250 rails with a heavy tank, or neutrons/425 rails as a glass cannon. Bonuses, 5% large hybrid damage and 7.5% large hybrid tracking per level, additional role bonus to reduce the capcitor need of large hybrids. Amarr BC - 6/4/7 slot layout, 6 turret hardpoints, laser gunship, 50m^3 dronebay 25mb bandwidth, like a harbinger but sacrifices utility for firepower, intended to armor tank Should be able to fit mega pulses with a modest tank and tackle, smaller BS pulses with a heavy tank, mega beams as a glass cannon, and tachyons only with a bunch of ACR rigs and RCUs. Bonuses, 5% large energy turret damage and 10% large energy turret optimal range per level, additional role bonus to reduce the capcitor need of large energy turrets. Caldari BC - 5/7/5, 5 launcher hardpoints, missile boat, 25m^3 dronebay 25mb bandwidth, intended to shield tank, more like a baby raven than a drake on roids. Should be able to fit a modest tank with cruise missiles and torpedos as a glass cannon. Bonuses, 5% to cruise missile or torpedo damage, 10% to cruise missile or torpedo velocity per level
Aesiron Squadron 1 2	Posted - 2011.10.22 07:12:00 - [4] - Quote Amarr - we currently have a heavy tank and a heavy DPS. Caldari - we currently have a heavy tank and a railgun DPS. Gallente - we currently have a tank/drone boat and a hybrid turret/tank. Minmatar - we currently have a versatile DPS and a shield/DPS omni. We need: Amarr - some kind of sniper that uses railguns instead of lasers. If not a railgun Amarr boat with damage bonuses. Caldari - some type of drone boat for the Caldari that uses shield tanking. Not a common combo: drones and shield tank. Gallente - a pure DPS ship similar to the Harbinger. Minmatar - some type of sniper/tank.
Aamrr HnL Enterprise 99	Posted - 2011.10.22 07:14:00 - [5] - Quote The Tornado should not get a damage bonus. It should get a RoF bonus. If you give it a damage bonus, you've created a battlecruiser with the alpha damage of a Tempest -- which is definitely not a good thing. This ship class is already poised to replace every other suicide gank platform in existence. Don't make it worse. Likewise, if you're trying to make a miniature-raven, the Caldari BC should be RoF bonus'd. Capless weapon platforms perform nicely with RoF bonuses anyway.
Pr1ncess Alia Perkone Caldari State 31	Posted - 2011.10.22 07:15:00 - [6] - Quote I would like to see a general ship bonus to turrets/bays of all sizes. Allowing these ships to fit large weapons ala glass cannon, med weaps with beefy tank or small weapons impossible tank would be nice. However I think they'll probably do like they do with the stealth bomber and just make the ship bonus shave down the fitting requirements of the large weapons to restrict crazy fits and only apply bonus to large weapons. Any way you look at it, all i want is to fit a tornado like: 1400s - mwd, track comp, painter - gyros, speed mods HIT AND RUN BABY or, hit and die gloriously. I'm ok with that too.
Theodoric Darkwind PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore 35	Posted - 2011.10.22 07:26:00 - [7] - Quote These new BCs also glaringly show the huge disparity in fitting requirements for weapons. Tachyon Beams are hard enough to fit on an abbadon, they would pretty much be a non-option for the new BC. Same story with the new gallente BC and 425 rails you need at least a PDS to put a full rack of 425 rails on a megathron and fit any sort of tank. Also shows the lack of variety in large missiles. With the turret ships I would envision using the smaller size BS guns (i.e. electron blasters, 650 autocannons, whatever the smaller size of BS lasers is) to make room for a decent tank on the new BCs. Caldari dont have that option, its cruise or torp ... period.
Pr1ncess Alia Perkone Caldari State 31	Posted - 2011.10.22 07:33:00 - [8] - Quote Theodoric Darkwind wrote: These new BCs also glaringly show the huge disparity in fitting requirements for weapons. Tachyon Beams are hard enough to fit on an abbadon, they would pretty much be a non-option for the new BC. Same story with the new gallente BC and 425 rails you need at least a PDS to put a full rack of 425 rails on a megathron and fit any sort of tank. Also shows the lack of variety in large missiles. With the turret ships I would envision using the smaller size BS guns (i.e. electron blasters, 650 autocannons, whatever the smaller size of BS lasers is) to make room for a decent tank on the new BCs. Caldari dont have that option, its cruise or torp ... period. while some of that is a maybe (and you make good points) don't confuse glaring disparity with a need to vanilla-ize the weapon systems. Nothing prevents people from cross training and nothing could be more damaging to Eve pvp than making all the weapons the same. Tachyons are 'supposed' to be a weapon class all to themselves. Hybrids are... well hybrids. They need fixed (RoF increase imo)
Theodoric Darkwind PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore 35	Posted - 2011.10.22 07:37:00 - [9] - Quote Well these new BCs should be rolled out with newly fixed hybrids. but the weapon fitting vs ship PG/CPU disparites still exist (though may get fixed by the hybrid rebalance) gallente ships still have the 2nd worst CPU (only better than amarr) and 2nd worst PG (only better than caldari) but hybrids have the 2nd highest fitting requirements for both PG (only lasers use more grid) and CPU (only missiles use more cpu and even there its close, torp launchers are the only BS weapon that uses more CPU than 425 rails) by comparison minmatar have the 2nd highest CPU (only behind caldari), and 2nd highest powergrid (only behind amarr) but projectiles are the easist fitting weapons in the game.
Shriven89 Tactical Knightmare 8	Posted - 2011.10.22 08:17:00 - [10] - Quote First post in this area of the forum, and only really skim read this thread, but my eyes caught on the "Caldari drone shield boat" Wat? That just ain't Caldari baby. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but battlecruisers can run links right? And command ships with a bunch of links out the ass are their Tech 2 counterpart? So why not make these new 3rd tier BCs a mini command ship? I mean, nobody uses the regular BCs to run links, from the little I've seen, so perhaps incentivise people to do so? I'd not know where to start with number of slots and bonuses and what not mind you. dons nomex ALL the things
Pr1ncess Alia Perkone Caldari State 31	Posted - 2011.10.22 08:19:00 - [11] - Quote Shriven89 wrote: First post in this area of the forum, and only really skim read this thread, but my eyes caught on the "Caldari drone shield boat" Wat? That just ain't Caldari baby. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but battlecruisers can run links right? And command ships with a bunch of links out the ass are their Tech 2 counterpart? So why not make these new 3rd tier BCs a mini command ship? I mean, nobody uses the regular BCs to run links, from the little I've seen, so perhaps incentivise people to do so? I'd not know where to start with number of slots and bonuses and what not mind you. dons nomex ALL the things yeah that's what we need is another command link platform
Tanya Powers Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 47	Posted - 2011.10.22 11:27:00 - [12] - Quote Theodoric Darkwind wrote: Well these new BCs should be rolled out with newly fixed hybrids. but the weapon fitting vs ship PG/CPU disparites still exist (though may get fixed by the hybrid rebalance) gallente ships still have the 2nd worst CPU (only better than amarr) and 2nd worst PG (only better than caldari) but hybrids have the 2nd highest fitting requirements for both PG (only lasers use more grid) and CPU (only missiles use more cpu and even there its close, torp launchers are the only BS weapon that uses more CPU than 425 rails) by comparison minmatar have the 2nd highest CPU (only behind caldari), and 2nd highest powergrid (only behind amarr) but projectiles are the easist fitting weapons in the game. Don't forget to add: Cruise can hit for over 100km, decent torps fit over 60, glass canon dps Autocanons hit like hell at over 80km with no issue (can shoot further), glass canon dps Scorch pulse is at least 65km, glass canon dps Then you have the most ridiculous of all, blasters scratching paint in the fall off at 40km with lol fits but 10% more dps the other weapons system have at ... 7km? Has it stands for hybrids right now, blasters most probably will keep the ridiculous range envelope with ridiculous +dps if they don't mess them more than they already are, in short: gank versions -since rails are crap no need to comment.
Cunane Jeran 14	Posted - 2011.10.22 12:23:00 - [13] - Quote The large weapons do pose some problems, as mentioned earlier, 6 800mm autos with a damage bonus and you have a more nimble, cheaper Tempest. it'd make the BS redundant So I'd like to see say 3-5 BS weapons on the new BC's, and to make it a little more unique not just flat damage/tank bonus, but something to add some flavour to each one. for example in the case of Gallente 4-5 Turret slots Either 7.5% tracking or 5% damage per level then something different like a Warp Scram range bonus, or MWD cap reduction just something different Maybe a 5/5/6 layout. or Minmatar 3-4 Turret slots 1-2 Missile Either 5% damage or 5% ROF then something like Web range bonus, or a speed bonus or something 5/6/5 layout Who knows.
Jerick Ludhowe Shadow Legion Industries Dark Phoenix Rising. 1	Posted - 2011.10.22 13:27:00 - [14] - Quote Errr.... you do know that 3-5 turrets is going to be joke DPS right? These ships will probably have 6 turrets each and sport 2 offensive bonuses, no double damage bonuses of course. As for the Tornado obsoleting the Tempest... WTF is wrong with you people... You look at one aspect of a ship that does not even have stats yet and determine it will be superior to the tempest... Fail. Tempest is a BS (dur) thus it has BS level hp with BS level cap, mods, and fittings. Large Nuets and a large cap booster are already enough of an advantage when comparing stand up performance of a BC to BS.
Jerick Ludhowe Shadow Legion Industries Dark Phoenix Rising. 1	Posted - 2011.10.22 13:38:00 - [15] - Quote Shriven89 wrote: So why not make these new 3rd tier BCs a mini command ship? I mean, nobody uses the regular BCs to run links, from the little I've seen, so perhaps incentivise people to do so? I'd not know where to start with number of slots and bonuses and what not mind you. dons nomex ALL the things The reason no one uses these modules on t1 BCs is because they have stupidly high fitting requirements relative to the ships while requiring allot of cap to run, aka fail. Gang Links are BROKEN at the moment and pretty much have been since their conception years ago. Off grid afk gang boosters is such a ****** dumb concept it's not even funny anymore... The entire "Gang Link" system needs a conceptual re-write if we as players want something more involved than pressing f1 through f3 and going afk at a pos for 5 hours...
SpaceSquirrels Scordite Excavating Xenaphobe 9	Posted - 2011.10.22 15:36:00 - [16] - Quote Some sort of niche role, or support role give options other than cruisers.
Tamiya Sarossa Hedion University Amarr Empire 46	Posted - 2011.10.22 15:49:00 - [17] - Quote Jerick Ludhowe wrote: The reason no one uses these modules on t1 BCs is because they have stupidly high fitting requirements relative to the ships while requiring allot of cap to run, aka fail. Gang Links are BROKEN at the moment and pretty much have been since their conception years ago. Off grid afk gang boosters is such a ****** dumb concept it's not even funny anymore... The entire "Gang Link" system needs a conceptual re-write if we as players want something more involved than pressing f1 through f3 and going afk at a pos for 5 hours... No, the reason no one uses them on BC's is because their infinitely better on alts in offgrid t3's than on a BC - more links, more bonuses, less damage. Fix the offgrid business, and you will see them used more in BC roaming gangs.
Steve Ronuken Fuzzwork Enterprises 28	Posted - 2011.10.22 16:37:00 - [18] - Quote ROF Penalty. Big guns, big alpha, slower fire rate. The Destroyer of BCs
Songbird 26	Posted - 2011.10.22 17:40:00 - [19] - Quote Well the obvious bonus they all get is some break on turret and launcher fitting requirements - think stealth bomber. A maxed out stealth bomber - all gank no tank , faction ballistics , t2 rage torps, DPS rigs and implants will deliver a bit over 815 DPS at 54km range. Think along those lines when you think BC's with BS guns :)
Ines Tegator Project ELT 20	Posted - 2011.10.22 17:46:00 - [20] - Quote The only stipulations I can think of regarding bonuses ATM, is that there should be absolutely no alpha bonuses (at the risk of replacing battleships) and absolutely no tracking bonuses or drone boats (at the risk of replacing the existing BC's). This will force them into a specialized target selection simply because of the existing stats on large guns, and will give these ships a unique role.
Goose99 Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 79	Posted - 2011.10.22 17:58:00 - [21] - Quote Steve Ronuken wrote: ROF Penalty. Big guns, big alpha, slower fire rate. The Destroyer of BCs Suicide gankers and blob masters, rejoice.
Cade102 Cade Industries 3	Posted - 2011.10.22 21:13:00 - [22] - Quote I think people are getting carried away with the "Tier 3 BC will have Large guns" statement. All this talk of 1400mm arty and Tachyons is crazy. I think it will transpire that these BC will only just be able to fit the often lamented and ignored Large weapons such as the Dual 425mm AC, Dual 250mm Rails etc To fit the more "regular" Large guns will result in terrible glass cannons
Dibblerette Eclipse Navy 0	Posted - 2011.10.23 05:32:00 - [23] - Quote Can someone provide a link to wherever it said that there would be large guns on these ships? Is anything known about the blueprint releases? Thanks.
Desudes Pixelmoon The Star League 3	Posted - 2011.10.23 05:51:00 - [24] - Quote Tamiya Sarossa wrote: Jerick Ludhowe wrote: The reason no one uses these modules on t1 BCs is because they have stupidly high fitting requirements relative to the ships while requiring allot of cap to run, aka fail. Gang Links are BROKEN at the moment and pretty much have been since their conception years ago. Off grid afk gang boosters is such a ****** dumb concept it's not even funny anymore... The entire "Gang Link" system needs a conceptual re-write if we as players want something more involved than pressing f1 through f3 and going afk at a pos for 5 hours... No, the reason no one uses them on BC's is because their infinitely better on alts in offgrid t3's than on a BC - more links, more bonuses, less damage. Fix the offgrid business, and you will see them used more in BC roaming gangs. Add bonus(50-100% increase) to on-grid boosters; keep the CS alt subs and give on-grid boosting a use, win/win. FOR THE DESU!!!
Ruah Piskonit PIE Inc. 11	Posted - 2011.10.23 06:38:00 - [25] - Quote Sounds like people want this tier 3 BC to be imba. The idea for example that the tier 3 Amarr BC should fit rails is. . .LOL. There are other weapons systems that would be much better suited - HAM BC (remember Rockets, HAMs and eventually Torps will be Amarr), Drone BC (in keeping with the Arbi and such) would be much better fit. To b honest, I hope t3 BCs don't have large weapons - it would completely make battleships redundant. Its an idiot idea. The slot layouts being proposed in a lot of these posts is also way out of wack. I think people want t3 BCs to be some super gank ship that can tank, do damage and move fast. . . their imba dream. Actually, reading through this post, i think most of the ideas here are pretty idiotic and i hope CCP is not really paying too much attention to this madness. Finally, th statement that 'no one uses BCs' is pretty stupid too - I see lots of BCs. Harbis, Cains, Drakes. . . maby no one uses them in 0.0 - but get over it - almost no one lives in 0.0 either (see what I did there?)
Sphit Ker Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 11	Posted - 2011.10.23 07:11:00 - [26] - Quote I want my tier 3 BC to be an anti-skirmish platform. High warp speed, high scan res. Stuff like that. I want that boat to land on a Cynabal at zero and actually manage a lock on it before it's 40km away and laughing. Guess why I want that? Hi Snigg!
Kitana Muerte Demons Pit 0	Posted - 2011.10.23 08:03:00 - [27] - Quote I just hope that the new tier 3 BCs will not replace HACs as a better sniper or hit and run platforms. It will be tech 1, so i guess insurable. I'm also affraid to see gangs of fast Tornados insta poping everything with their might artie alpha. We don't want the whole eve flying one ship class, do we?
Gaien Haart Corpus Alienum 0	Posted - 2011.10.23 08:10:00 - [28] - Quote I'm already flying 20k ehp glass artycane, if i can go for the same, but with 1400mm, i'm sold.
Syoned Die Enklave Y G G D R A S I L 0	Posted - 2011.10.23 08:16:00 - [29] - Quote Those new BCs will be the suicide gankers wet dream. I am not sure if and how this can get addressed, but it is a point that should be take into consideration carefully. If you don't need a couple of BS any longer to pop a freighter but can do with a bunch of probably much cheaper BC or blow up even a tanked Hulk with a single BC it will have a significant impact on global economy. So either the defensive capabilities of the industrial ships should be increased correspondingly (preferably) or game mechanics should be included to prevent such an abuse of the new ships or make it at least less attractive.
Roisin Connor Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2011.10.23 12:05:00 - [30] - Quote Dibblerette wrote: Can someone provide a link to wherever it said that there would be large guns on these ships? Is anything known about the blueprint releases? Thanks. Ship-troduction: The Minmatar Tornado Quote: "The most unique thing about them is that they will be able to fit battleship-sized weapons. Yes, you heard correctly... battlecruisers with oversized guns."
Fronkfurter McSheebleton Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2011.10.23 14:12:00 - [31] - Quote Thought I had posted already...hmm...guess it didn't go through. Traditional battlecruisers IRL are, in essence, slightly smaller, more maneuverable battleships, usually with battleship-sized guns, but fewer of them. Seems to me like they've finally decided to make a proper battlecruiser. I can see maybe 4 weapon slots, probably along with a cpu/pg reduction as a role bonus.
Duchess Starbuckington Starbuckington Manor 9	Posted - 2011.10.23 14:14:00 - [32] - Quote I'm just really, really hoping the Tornado won't have the grid to fit arties. Blobs of 1400mm battlecruisers? No thanks.
Tanya Powers Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 50	Posted - 2011.10.23 23:15:00 - [33] - Quote Duchess Starbuckington wrote: I'm just really, really hoping the Tornado won't have the grid to fit arties. Blobs of 1400mm battlecruisers? No thanks. Same here, but since "variety" in eve means a lot of useless ships on the market and the same overused, yeah we can expect 1400mm alpha BC's vs Tachyions and Torp's bc's, while blaster ones will be ganking retrievers and hulks... I might be surprised thou but atm, no hope, no confidence.
Songbird 31	Posted - 2011.10.24 03:48:00 - [34] - Quote Historically there's 2 definitions of BC - a cruiser with BS armor, or a cruiser with BS guns. 1400mm Tornados won't be all that good, if it has 3 low and 3 meds. A tier 3 BC should be almost as expensive as tier 1 BS. I say bring more BC's , and I say bring a tier of pirate BC's. It's about time.
Angry Onions Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore 114	Posted - 2011.10.24 03:59:00 - [35] - Quote If CCP is following the designs of the Tornado to the dot (for the most part they are), then the Tornado will receive a webbing range bonus per battle cruiser skill level, if this is the case then: Amarr will get some kind of Energy Neuting bonus Gallente will get some kind of Targeting Dampener bonus Caldari will get ECM bonus. This will help give them a special role to fill out as well. E .-+ ` ' / -+. F Your Carebear tears fuel us
Soldarius Peek-A-Boo Bombers 39	Posted - 2011.10.24 04:19:00 - [36] - Quote While I would totally agree with Amarr, Gallente, and Minmatar getting EWAR ships, Caldari don't need another ECM ship. I agree that the Tornado is going to be the suicide ganker's wet dream. Howerver, everyone seems to be forgetting that increased dps doesn't mean anything fi you can't reach out and touch someone with it. As BC hulls, these ships will have BC locking range. So SeBo'd BCs if you want to snipe. Shield tanking would be severely gimped. As a Caldari focused pilot, I would be a sad panda. Torps would make a better choice for the Caldari ship rather than cruise missiles. (Praying its not large rails on a Ferox, unless CCP gives me a T2 Drake next year. fap fap fap) "How do you kill that which has no life?"
rodyas The Scope Gallente Federation 13	Posted - 2011.10.24 06:25:00 - [37] - Quote Gallente want the new drake. Give us drone bunus with armor resitance bonus. Also can fit those large guns and has 50 drone bandwith.
Jed Shady Miranda United F0RCEFUL ENTRY 0	Posted - 2011.10.24 07:16:00 - [38] - Quote My off the cuff, not well though out idea. The short comings of the various races is essential. If every hole gets spackeled the game goes down in flames, as it vanilla. So I wouldn't look to the T3's BS's to rectify what ever your particular gripe is with your pet race. I think it would be more interesting if they were "Spruce Gooses", meaning odd combinations of existing features. For example, maybe a drake with less tank but a cargo hold like a blockade runner. Or a Cane that has twice the turret hardpoints, but can only mount small arty/ac. The creative types can come up with something. But BS weapons on a smaller frame... yawn. We already have BS's and they don't cost that much, a BC with BS fire power would obsolete them. IHMO in the small skirmishes I've been involved in, it's all about dps, nobody brings BS's. Give us something off the wall and see what creative uses the community can come up with. Jed
ChromeStriker The Shadow's clutch 11	Posted - 2011.10.24 07:46:00 - [39] - Quote All of the ships are going to need PG/CPU bonuses to there respective weapons. Just giving them BS fitting stats is going to cause havoc (100MN MWD tornado ect) - Nulla Curas
Potato IQ Hedion University Amarr Empire 8	Posted - 2011.10.24 08:14:00 - [40] - Quote ChromeStriker wrote: All of the ships are going to need PG/CPU bonuses to there respective weapons. Just giving them BS fitting stats is going to cause havoc (100MN MWD tornado ect) Agree a role bonus should be adopted I welcome these new ships, regardless of the constructive or wild speculation against them in this and various other threads. A useful tool for WH dwellers
Pr1ncess Alia Perkone Caldari State 31	Posted - 2011.10.24 09:34:00 - [41] - Quote Tanya Powers wrote: Duchess Starbuckington wrote: I'm just really, really hoping the Tornado won't have the grid to fit arties. Blobs of 1400mm battlecruisers? No thanks. Same here, but since "variety" in eve means a lot of useless ships on the market and the same overused, yeah we can expect 1400mm alpha BC's vs Tachyions and Torp's bc's, while blaster ones will be ganking retrievers and hulks... I might be surprised thou but atm, no hope, no confidence. lol, pre-tears I'm going to gank you with a tornado. Using 1400mm, and I'll get two cryings for one kill. The one I get when I do it and the one your giving everyone right now. "They better not be able to fit the large guns! I can't handle that thought, I don't even need to see ship stats or bonuses!" "What? CCP is making a new hull? Oh god it's all over. This is the end. I know how this starts, next thing you know no one will fly any other ships."
Shayla Sh'inlux Aliastra Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2011.10.24 12:13:00 - [42] - Quote Well, aside from the crying, the possibility exists that these new BCs just make another ship/shipclass obsolete. I like the whole idea of specialized ships that require intensive training and from the (admittedly very limited) information we have now, it looks like it will be a BC-sized ship with BS DPS. Since such a ship will always have some mids and/or low it's fairly safe to assume you can fit E-war and/or a tank on them, making them basically a fast battleship with a BC-sized tank. That doesn't sound very specialized to me. I've never been a huge fan of BCs as they basically obsoleted cruisers, and from a first look this smells like "hey Tier3 BCs might obsolete battleships too". Battleships are already an inferior choice to Tech 3 cruisers / HACs and the various BC hulls for pretty much everything you want to do and I don't think they need even less reason to get used.
Ruah Piskonit PIE Inc. 14	Posted - 2011.10.24 12:53:00 - [43] - Quote Shayla Sh'inlux wrote: Well, aside from the crying, the possibility exists that these new BCs just make another ship/shipclass obsolete. I like the whole idea of specialized ships that require intensive training and from the (admittedly very limited) information we have now, it looks like it will be a BC-sized ship with BS DPS. Since such a ship will always have some mids and/or low it's fairly safe to assume you can fit E-war and/or a tank on them, making them basically a fast battleship with a BC-sized tank. That doesn't sound very specialized to me. I've never been a huge fan of BCs as they basically obsoleted cruisers, and from a first look this smells like "hey Tier3 BCs might obsolete battleships too". Battleships are already an inferior choice to Tech 3 cruisers / HACs and the various BC hulls for pretty much everything you want to do and I don't think they need even less reason to get used. yah, my feelings exactly. I suspect they will make the BB even more useless. CCP are back to their old strategy again - instead of working on the problms ingame, they distract the newer players with new ships irregardless of whether they are game breaking or not. And this pattern, seen many many times before, is exactly why people are not convinced by what CCP says. But hay, its a new ship, hopefully its not too imba, and if it is, then we will all fly them (and their are T1) and stop flying all the other ships. . . an then people can cry about the tier system and all the unused t1 ships out there and say they need a buff. . .not realizing that the reason they are useless is because they keep demanding new shinny ships. . . ironic.
Darrius Cain Legion of Heresy Burning Spear. 0	Posted - 2011.10.24 15:48:00 - [44] - Quote I would like to see the Caldari variant being a Railboat, and none of them having drone bays. Make them awesome DPS support vessels because they can fit BS sized guns with nice bonuses (boni? idk).
Cuircuir Moustache University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2011.10.24 16:14:00 - [45] - Quote Well well well... Frigates : Most T1 are useless AFs need work and a 4th bonus EAFs need work and balance Destroyers The whole class is meh Cruisers T1 are mostly unused T2 are unbalanced and some are broken (eagle, deimos etc) BCs Works fine, except tier 1 obsoleted by tier 2 BSs Less and less used with each new smaller hull Yeah. This game definitively needs a new tier of the most-used ship class.
Aeril Malkyre Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 6	Posted - 2011.10.24 17:40:00 - [46] - Quote Alright, so I'm cross- posting from my original thread about the Tornado, since this post seems to be more specific to what I came up with as possible specs for her, based on the ideas in the dev blog. The biggest drain from a large turret is powergrid. So a ship bonus is likely: 90% reduction in Large Projectile Turret module Powergrid usage. So following the Cyc to Cane progression, could expect a powergrid of somewhere around 1490. That would allow you to mount 8 800mm repeaters, with some skills, but not much else. Toss on a 10% Rate of Fire bonus, because Larges are slow as hell. I would bet on an even slot layout, 8H/4M/4L, 8 turret/4 missile, to allow for armor or shield but not be greater than the other BC's (8/4/6, 8/5/4) at either. Adds to the glass cannon concept. Armor guys can aim for webbing and speed, shield guys can aim for tracking and damage. Might even bump the speed to 175 (from the 165 standard to the others), since the dev blog mentioned speed and distance tanking. A 4500 point even split on shield and armor would allow the pilot to go either way, but the 4 slots keeps it from out-tanking the Cyc or Cane. Crunch all that out and it'd make one hell of a paper sniper. Thoughts? (Instead of gripes about broader game issues, which this thread seems to have mostly devolved into.)
Tanya Powers Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 51	Posted - 2011.10.24 17:45:00 - [47] - Quote Pr1ncess Alia wrote: Tanya Powers wrote: Duchess Starbuckington wrote: I'm just really, really hoping the Tornado won't have the grid to fit arties. Blobs of 1400mm battlecruisers? No thanks. Same here, but since "variety" in eve means a lot of useless ships on the market and the same overused, yeah we can expect 1400mm alpha BC's vs Tachyions and Torp's bc's, while blaster ones will be ganking retrievers and hulks... I might be surprised thou but atm, no hope, no confidence. lol, pre-tears I'm going to gank you with a tornado. Using 1400mm, and I'll get two cryings for one kill. The one I get when I do it and the one your giving everyone right now. "They better not be able to fit the large guns! I can't handle that thought, I don't even need to see ship stats or bonuses!" "What? CCP is making a new hull? Oh god it's all over. This is the end. I know how this starts, next thing you know no one will fly any other ships." No you will not, because the bastard behind you already kicking your butt in his Angel ship is me. You see how interested I am in balance stuff and most important, your silly opinion.
Duchess Starbuckington Starbuckington Manor 9	Posted - 2011.10.24 18:12:00 - [48] - Quote Quote: lol, pre-tears I'm going to gank you with a tornado. Using 1400mm, and I'll get two cryings for one kill. The one I get when I do it and the one your giving everyone right now. "They better not be able to fit the large guns! I can't handle that thought, I don't even need to see ship stats or bonuses!" "What? CCP is making a new hull? Oh god it's all over. This is the end. I know how this starts, next thing you know no one will fly any other ships." Lol Wow. It's really not that often that someone makes such a big show of being a complete idiot. If anyone with a brain here can think of a reason why a blob of 1400mm arty toting Tornados will be good for the game, I'm happy to hear it.
Dbars Grinding Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2011.10.24 18:30:00 - [49] - Quote this is why they should have made them new battleships. It would have made a lot more sense. I forsee them being super squishy.
Anikan Fernardo CAPTAIN BLACKS ORE BRAGADE 3	Posted - 2011.10.24 19:27:00 - [50] - Quote The people saying T3 BC's will be suicide gank ships are delusional. They will likely cost as much as if not more than Strategic Cruisers. I don't see all these " glass cannon 1400mm Tornado gangs " coming to fruition when the cost will probably be more than a Mach or Vindi hull for a decently fit one.
Aamrr HnL Enterprise 108	Posted - 2011.10.24 19:34:00 - [51] - Quote Anikan Fernardo wrote: The people saying T3 BC's will be suicide gank ships are delusional. They will likely cost as much as if not more than Strategic Cruisers. I don't see all these " glass cannon 1400mm Tornado gangs " coming to fruition when the cost will probably be more than a Mach or Vindi hull for a decently fit one. Quoting someone who doesn't understand the difference between "Tech" and "Tier."
Tanya Powers Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 52	Posted - 2011.10.24 19:35:00 - [52] - Quote Anikan Fernardo wrote: The people saying T3 BC's will be suicide gank ships are delusional. They will likely cost as much as if not more than Strategic Cruisers. I don't see all these " glass cannon 1400mm Tornado gangs " coming to fruition when the cost will probably be more than a Mach or Vindi hull for a decently fit one. Hey, flash news!! Tier 3 is not Tech 3 again flash news for you: -less tank than regular bc -BS sized guns More expensive than T3's or faction BS's??? Mwahaha
Brynhilda Massive PVPness EntroPraetorian Aegis 56	Posted - 2011.10.24 20:43:00 - [53] - Quote I hope that this doesn't further cause for Minmatar's superiority... You always see Hurricanes in gangs since they're cheap effective DPS boats that are agile. Drakes are also common because they have massive tanks and are common PVE ships. How may I drug you with drugs?
De BuG2 Rise on Chaos The Fendahlian Collective 0	Posted - 2011.10.25 09:15:00 - [54] - Quote Personally, i would take the Tier 1 Cyclone over the Tier 2 Hurricane any day.
Scatim Helicon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 123	Posted - 2011.10.25 10:19:00 - [55] - Quote I'm expecting a good highslot rack with 6-7 hardpoints (any less and they'll barely outdamage the existing tier 2s) minimal buffering options (so not many mids or lows), minimal or no dronebay, and both bonuses to the large guns.
Oxeu Garnithos seal of the Covenant The Heaven's Devils 1	Posted - 2011.10.25 10:37:00 - [56] - Quote TO me the whole notice of large guns on a bc hull makes me shake my head, what use will that serve, any cruiser will speed tank those guns and just laugh at the whole thing, same reason why BS are used so little the smaller hulls are just so trouble some to be hit so you need dedicated tackle which cost more tends not always to be the most solid ship on the field making a fleet of plain BC far more cost effective for any small gang. Anyhow that is my thoughts now, the real impact we can only find out when we can fly them and test them till than you will be able to get as much facts from here as from asking any person to point in the direction where Atlantis is supposed to be, neither of these with get you anything of use.
Imaginary Girlfriend Exploit Inc. 0	Posted - 2011.10.25 13:17:00 - [57] - Quote Why when large guns are discused everyone assumes it means the largest, nuetrons, megas, 1400's ect. What if the stealth bomber type bonus given to the ships only allow for the double crusier sized weapons, in theory you would turn your 6 large highs slots into 12 med high slots. Maybe CCP is looking at making a BC Killer rather that a BS replacement.
Tanya Powers Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 59	Posted - 2011.10.25 21:58:00 - [58] - Quote Imaginary Girlfriend wrote: Maybe CCP is looking at making a BC Killer rather that a BS replacement. Because Vagas Cynabals Zealots can do the job unless you're talking about Drake trains
Cillet Baang Scott University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2011.10.25 22:31:00 - [59] - Quote [Gallente Tier 3 BC] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 50m3 drone bay a +5% damage/level... u get 712dps + watever hammers do. I sense failure
Tanya Powers Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 59	Posted - 2011.10.25 22:38:00 - [60] - Quote Cillet Baang Scott wrote: [Gallente Tier 3 BC] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 50m3 drone bay a +5% damage/level... u get 712dps + watever hammers do. I sense failure Being stuck with such short range is the biggest fail in the first place. The fit and slots layout let's wait and see but if I should give some note on your ship has it stand right now: 1/10 for everything else than gank where that note would rise up to 7, Arty and beam/tach's would pick 10/10 Let's wait for the official announcement. Let's wait to see how big the fail can be.
Diomidis Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED 5	Posted - 2011.10.25 23:00:00 - [61] - Quote Too much speculation... I don't feel very confident about em...claims for increased speed / agility make me happy, but I am pretty positive that the increased benefits from BS Guns (and/or launchers) will be offset-ted by other limitations - like slot layout, drone bays and/or fitting limitations. DPS wise I doubt they will be higher than most current Tier 2 BCs...and that's not bad, considering those do get VERY good DPS already...all but the Myrm...the increased alpha and range will be the deciding factor. I doubt they want to kill the BS as a DPS boat completely. So either forget about multiple dmg bonuses, or forget about # of turrets. You will get BS range, BC cost, BC DPS, BC rig size, BC agility + speed. Tier 2 BCs will remain the "jacks of all trades" those are today - just like the tier 2 BSs - and the Tier 3s will most likely be DPS focused, but not the insane DPS-pwnage ppl describe. If all of those will be turret boats, I doubt they will get the insane tracking bonuses ppl are wishing for...that would make them too versatile against all sizes of ships, effectively killing the BS as a DPS boat. I think those should still have large turret basic tracking - with maybe some exceptions, ideally for the blaster/hybrid boats to offset other limitations. If say the tornado is as ganky as the Cane, with better agility and large AC or artie range/alpha, I doubt it will have 2x utility slots with enough fitting to fit 2x neuts etc...it cannot be a more agile cane with the same neuting power and the range of a nano-tempest...I would guess it would be less tanky and way more tight in fitting than the cane, probably with worse slot layout too... Caldari: Range bonused only Rails and/or blasters for the Caldari version would be painful (unless the new blasters are completely broken to boot with!) but - again, unless they want to make BSs obsolete - we cannot be thinking another missile boat: remember, the cruise raven is hardly any better than a Fury spawing HML drake due to dmg mitigation on smaller targets. And if a cruise equipted Tier 3 BC won't be better than a Tier 2 BS (logical), it won't be any better than the Drake...and range past this of the HML's platform is rarely useful (why ppl don't use cerb much). Don't get me started with Torps...even with a full set of "SB-like" special bonuses, that would mean that the new ship will be meant only for hot-dropping on lonly BCs and BSs...fragile, fast and ganky...meh, just get the SB that cloaks too! Gallente: It cannot be a drone boat, can it ? Meh...lets hope for the blaster changes more than we do for drones... Amarr: I want to see the cap that will sustain mega pulses... Nano-Drake will probably be the king still... "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell
Kaeh Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi 0	Posted - 2011.10.26 02:23:00 - [62] - Quote You heard it from me first all have 8 highslots. Tornado 8/5/4 Naga 8/6/4 amarr 8/3/6 gallente 8/4/5 They will all have reduction to CPU and powergrid on large guns. And only gallente will have a 25m3 dronebay. Gallente has 4 gun bonus and web bonus. Caldari has hybrid and missiles. Rest have 5 gun bonuses. Also onerios is getting extra lowslot and power grid.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 49	Posted - 2011.10.26 02:40:00 - [63] - Quote The current bonuses on the gallente and amarr ones seem pretty bizarre, they seem like good bonuses that will help those ships but a tracking bonus on a T1 amarr hull and a web bonus on a gallente hull aren't consistant with the "normal" racial bonuses. I personally think that's bad but that's really just my personal opinion.
Imaginary Girlfriend Exploit Inc. 0	Posted - 2011.10.26 03:47:00 - [64] - Quote Tanya Powers wrote: Imaginary Girlfriend wrote: Maybe CCP is looking at making a BC Killer rather that a BS replacement. Because Vagas Cynabals Zealots can do the job unless you're talking about Drake trains All of which will cost more and have higher skill requirements than a t1 bc. And anything that scares the hell out of drake pilots is a good thing
Headerman Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx 282	Posted - 2011.10.26 04:08:00 - [65] - Quote The Tornado should be able to fit 8 1400's... it's gonna mean an end to the AlphaMael i bet. Spend 40m on a hull and get the same alpha The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why?
Ashera Yune Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2011.10.26 04:31:00 - [66] - Quote The Amarr Tier 3, Oracle, can fit 8 tech 2 tachyons with enough grid to spare for fitting a 10mn microwarpdrive. It can fit a full rack of mega pulse II's with enough grid for a 1600mm plate, 10mn mwd, and medium cap booster.
Siigari Kitawa Ironclad Forge No Kings 3	Posted - 2011.10.26 05:27:00 - [67] - Quote It's funny because as tier 3 battlecruisers these will probably begin to cost as much as tier 1 battleships, perhaps getting close to tier 2 battleship price. I would figure that a tier 3 battlecruiser would be an AGILE battleship weapons platform. I would also imagine focus on rate of fire instead of flat damage (because ROF gives a massive DPS increase anyway.) Flat damage bonuses are no good, ROF is where it's at. And agility. The ships should be quick and paper. Think about real world ships in the sea that were literally built just to hold one or two guns that were oversized for its class. Almost like a mini-dreadnought. That's what I'm hoping we'll see.
odst Captain15 Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage 0	Posted - 2011.10.26 21:54:00 - [68] - Quote https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=warning&l=http%3a%2f%2faltruist.azual.co.uk%2f2011%2f10%2fnew-battlecruisers-and-balance-changes.html&domain=azual.co.uk the link in this explains early build details (they need to be balanced still) of each battle crusier, they all get 8 highs and 8 turrets/launchers. less health than a tier 2 BC but faster and more agile. They are looking pretty good.
Shizuken Venerated Stars 0	Posted - 2011.10.28 22:14:00 - [69] - Quote I think they should stay an all purpose platform with a few marginal changes. Keep them as a jack of all trades, just with slightly more capability. 5% More Cap 5% More Speed 5% More Shield/Armor/Hull 5% More Power 5% More CPU Leave the fittings the same (assuming they are revisions of current models and not new models) Make the ship bonus add an additional small bonus to whatever modules are installed BUT make the agility lower from the increased mass, lower the cargo volume by 15%, and make the signature radius larger from the increased electronics on board AND ensure that the thing is ungodly expensive something like the above would still allow it to do almost anything possible without making it some crazy juggernaut that displaces BS or Cruisers.
Veronica Kerrigan Hand Of Midas F0RCEFUL ENTRY 2	Posted - 2011.10.29 04:35:00 - [70] - Quote Shriven89 wrote: First post in this area of the forum, and only really skim read this thread, but my eyes caught on the "Caldari drone shield boat" Wat? That just ain't Caldari baby. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but battlecruisers can run links right? And command ships with a bunch of links out the ass are their Tech 2 counterpart? So why not make these new 3rd tier BCs a mini command ship? I mean, nobody uses the regular BCs to run links, from the little I've seen, so perhaps incentivise people to do so? I'd not know where to start with number of slots and bonuses and what not mind you. dons nomex ALL the things I actually am currently using a hurricane to provide boosts, while I get the money for a claymore. Admittedly it is a temporary solution, but it does work for the intended purpose quite nicely. Now if only I had decent leadership skills...
Veran Nijoba DEEP SPACE SALVAGING 0	Posted - 2011.10.29 06:07:00 - [71] - Quote You guys say that the harbinger is Pure DPS? What do you say about it's tanking ability / speed?

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