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Toshiro Ozuwara
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
38
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 23:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
The End Of The Tech Era Post-Odyssey Finance Thread
For a long time the Finance team has gotten to be the good guys: when we had vast streams of tech wealth at your disposal there werenGÇÖt really any GÇ£hard choicesGÇ¥. That era, unfortunately, is over. The CFC was amazingly, absurdly successful in the Tech Era. We own something like 75-80% of all of the tech in the game, and pretty much every other moon is owned by PL. That allowed money to flow almost limitlessly, and even after the first tech nerf we simply adapted because that was still a crazy amount of money.
Now, however, technetium is finally being nerfed into the ground. ItGÇÖs not worthless yet, but it soon will be. The new money moons will be r64s, and those are spread out in a way that prevents anyone from controlling them all in the same way that we controlled tech. The first tech nerf cut our income in half, and this has cut our income in half again. This is even worse than it seems because this is cutting nearly all of our discretionary income - whatGÇÖs left over after sov, reimbursements, fuel, and cyno alts.
As a result, weGÇÖve had to axe basically everything but those programs. We have reserves (both isk and investments) that are allowing us to transition to the new financial reality, spend more than weGÇÖre taking in and make sure that even if a major war breaks out we wonGÇÖt have to hold back for lack of money. But in peacetime we have to balance our books, so we donGÇÖt go broke in wartime. Current spending will continue through June, but after that, everything is going to get cut. As weGÇÖre able to acquire additional income, weGÇÖll recreate valuable programs that weGÇÖve been forced to cut. Even once we do, thereGÇÖs a lot of good spending that benefits goons, and weGÇÖll have to make hard choices about what can be brought back given whatever new income weGÇÖve managed to acquire. Sigs, squads, and everyone else getting money from the alliance has to prepare to function without that funding, and thereGÇÖs no guarantees weGÇÖll be able to bring it back.
To raise funds for reimbursements and the like weGÇÖre restoring two old taxes that weGÇÖd let fall by the wayside.
The Refining Tax
One of the major features of Odyssey is that individual income in 0.0 is being buffed, with the goal of alliances funding themselves through taxation of this income. Ore mining is getting a significant boost (both the grav anoms and belts) that look to be making mining in 0.0 a thing to do again even if youGÇÖre not 12-boxing your own mining fleet. But the real gravy is the new ice anom system. Ice anoms in good 0.0 space look to have crazy income - 60 to 100man hour, mostly on the high end of that. And if thatGÇÖs not enough to incentivize people to mine, well, it will go up until it does.
As a result of these changes, we expect individual mining will go up quite a lot: it is now an actually good idea instead of something people do only if they really, really like multiboxing or just canGÇÖt do math. WeGÇÖre going to do everything we can to help goons with this - weGÇÖre going to buy ice locally, and ice anoms will be free for all (nobody can claim one and shut you out). However, all GSF stations will have a 5% refining tax added. We havenGÇÖt had refining taxes in a long time, and people are going to have to get used to them again. WeGÇÖre aware that refinery taxes are a fairly crude tool and people may evade them. The realities of EVE mean that we canGÇÖt completely eliminate tax dodging, so what weGÇÖre going to be doing is focusing on mining in refinery systems. If you are the sort of randian mining multiboxer who absolutely must mine tax-free, there are a number of good mining systems without refineries where you can mine just as easily as you can in a refinery system. We will be giant unrelenting g*ylords about anyone trying to mine in refinery systems and evade taxes (most especially, ice systems), and that g*ylordism will probably take the form of things exploding. Please donGÇÖt get too accustomed to evading taxes by mining elsewhere - if we can get the tools to tax you fairly so youGÇÖll pulling your weight like everyone else we will . WeGÇÖll be attempting to get some good information about how to ice mine written up for goons, just as soon as we can find someone who knows how to do it to write it up. |

Toshiro Ozuwara
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
38
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 23:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
The Return of Moonfleet Taxes
One of the lesser-noticed changes in Odyssey is that thanks to r64s becoming valuable again, so are r16 moons. In the Tech Era weGÇÖve never bothered collecting taxes on mining POS, because they just werenGÇÖt very profitable and we had plenty of isk. ThatGÇÖs now changing: these moons are already becoming valuable and weGÇÖre going to restore the tax on them. In addition, r32s are expected to be narrowly bottlenecked as well, so weGÇÖll be taxing those (including technetium, which will be detowered once it no longer makes sense to force GSOL to mine it). For now, weGÇÖre going to keep things simple. By June 15th, everyone with an r16 or an r32 tower in GSF sov space will be taxed at 75mper tower per month. This amount will be adjusted to be roughly 25% of the profit of the moon (value minus the cost of fuel for a small tower). If various minerals get wildly out of balance weGÇÖll make the amounts more precise. WeGÇÖll also give warning before these taxes go up.
If you decide you donGÇÖt want to mine these moons anymore, either detower them and let us know, or transfer them to a new owner who is willing to mine them and pay the tax. Before June 15th, if you have a tower on a r16 or r32 moon, you must have PMed Kazanir, Mynnna, Aryth and I with the location of the tower and the ticker of the altcorp. WeGÇÖll investigate any unreported moons at that point and either ensure the current owner will be paying their taxes or allow anyone who wants the moon to take it.
Taxes should be done in one lump from the corp wallet to DJGÇÖs Retirement Fund, at the beginning of each month. For the taxes due July 1st (the taxes for the month of June), |

Toshiro Ozuwara
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
38
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 23:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Never not tax and threaten your own miners with violence. Well done CFC! |

Proletariat Tingtango
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
347
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 00:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hmm enforce taxation, or let a bunch of ****** idiot ass renters pollute deklein? Double my taxes. |

SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1732
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 00:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Miners exist to be threatened nerd. |

KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
339
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 01:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote:Miners exist to be threatened nerd.
>> <<
Dude, you just called someone a nerd on the alliance sub forum of an internet spaceship game.
I just...I dunno anymore... |

SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1733
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 01:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Not my fault he thinks miners are actually people. |

KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
340
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 01:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Fair point I guess. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1030
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 01:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
The RMT must flow.
So this is what farms and fields will be like, as expected. Meantime, the CSM is pushing forward to complete what CSM 6 and 7 did, which is to divert even more wealth from high sec into the hands of the null sec cartel leaders for whatever purpose they want.
I say the cartel leaders, because clearly, the typical goon grunt will not be seeing any.
It is quite a thing to witness though. A select few managing to completely co-opt a community's economic control into the hands of said few, through social engineering, meta-gaming, intimidation, all the while under the watchful eyes of the game designers.
The koch brothers should be taking notes on how to do it.
At Fanfest, the CCP's economy guys said that the Eve economy was 650 trillion ISK. At 12 bucks / billion, that runs out at about 7.8 million us dollars annually. How much of that is flowing directly through the hands of a tiny amount of null sec cartel moneymen, and how much do they siphon off? |

Proletariat Tingtango
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
347
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 01:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
I like you. |

Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 02:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/zduNY.png?1
damn goons with their bots in the forge |

SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1735
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 02:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The RMT must flow.
So this is what farms and fields will be like, as expected. Meantime, the CSM is pushing forward to complete what CSM 6 and 7 did, which is to divert even more wealth from high sec into the hands of the null sec cartel leaders for whatever purpose they want.
I say the cartel leaders, because clearly, the typical goon grunt will not be seeing any.
It is quite a thing to witness though. A select few managing to completely co-opt a community's economic control into the hands of said few, through social engineering, meta-gaming, intimidation, all the while under the watchful eyes of the game designers.
The koch brothers should be taking notes on how to do it.
At Fanfest, the CCP's economy guys said that the Eve economy was 650 trillion ISK. At 12 bucks / billion, that runs out at about 7.8 million us dollars annually. How much of that is flowing directly through the hands of a tiny amount of null sec cartel moneymen, and how much do they siphon off?
We have API verified open finances, which kinda blows that tinfoil right off of your head.
Let's just ignore the fact that I get reimbursed for any PVP ship I lose be it in combat with enemies, or just some random dudes I find.
Let's ignore the fact that "Just for fun" squads have been getting stipends for a while now that allows us to fling isk and ships around to our members.
Let's ignore the fact that my home space has been upgraded to the max to allow for easy and lazy income generation.
Let's ignore the fact that the alliance was buying free carrier's for anyone that could skill into them.
Let's ignore the fact that even prior to that program, half of my carriers modules were subsidized by alliance funds and all i use the ******* thing for is a taxi.
You're right bro. I'll never see any of that isk. |

Charles Case
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
502
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 05:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The RMT must flow. I say the cartel leaders, because clearly, the typical goon grunt will not be seeing any.
I have literally gotten billions of ISK in reimbursements from gf, you speak pubbie ignorance. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1032
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 05:39:00 -
[14] - Quote
Seems like I have I hit a nerve with some of the plebians within goons, who throw anecdotal events as gospel back at me.
Yes, you sound just like the zealots within the tea party who don't know they are being played by the puppet-masters behind the screen.
I find it sad, enlightening, and humourous, all at the same time, that I have goons screaming " I get billions of ISK, all in easy mode from my benefactors in leadership", while we have a post describing how many programs are about to be taken away, and how many income streams are about to be taxed heavily, at the same time.
Is the typical goon truly that dumb or that deeply indoctrinated, that the can't see the simple truth about how much ISK your handlers take in, and how much they give out?
Oh, and by the way, does not bragging about how you get billions in "easy mode" kind of negate your propaganda about how difficult it is to live in null sec, and how high sec must be nerfed to "rebalance" the risk/ reward paradigm?
Really, whomever is running the goon propaganda team, you have to keep these guys on a tighter leash. |

Proletariat Tingtango
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
347
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 05:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
goon alt detected |

Callduron
369
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 06:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The RMT must flow.
So this is what farms and fields will be like, as expected. Meantime, the CSM is pushing forward to complete what CSM 6 and 7 did, which is to divert even more wealth from high sec into the hands of the null sec cartel leaders for whatever purpose they want.
I say the cartel leaders, because clearly, the typical goon grunt will not be seeing any.
It is quite a thing to witness though. A select few managing to completely co-opt a community's economic control into the hands of said few, through social engineering, meta-gaming, intimidation, all the while under the watchful eyes of the game designers.
The koch brothers should be taking notes on how to do it.
At Fanfest, the CCP's economy guys said that the Eve economy was 650 trillion ISK. At 12 bucks / billion, that runs out at about 7.8 million us dollars annually. How much of that is flowing directly through the hands of a tiny amount of null sec cartel moneymen, and how much do they siphon off? We have API verified open finances, which kinda blows that tinfoil right off of your head. Let's just ignore the fact that I get reimbursed for any PVP ship I lose be it in combat with enemies, or just some random dudes I find. Let's ignore the fact that "Just for fun" squads have been getting stipends for a while now that allows us to fling isk and ships around to our members. Let's ignore the fact that my home space has been upgraded to the max to allow for easy and lazy income generation. Let's ignore the fact that the alliance was buying free carrier's for anyone that could skill into them. Let's ignore the fact that even prior to that program, half of my carriers modules were subsidized by alliance funds and all i use the ******* thing for is a taxi. You're right bro. I'll never see any of that isk.
Counterpoints: "Current spending will continue through June, but after that, everything is going to get cut. " Atrum Venicus (Goon CFO)
"We are destitute" The Mittani (Goon CEO).
Tosh buddy can you edit your post to point out that this is a leak from the Goon forums, posted by their CFO? My eyes kinda closed when I saw your posts, I assumed it was some rant. In caps, bold and at the top of the first post please. Tia. |

Charles Case
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
502
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 07:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Seems like I have I hit a nerve with some of the plebians within goons, who throw anecdotal events as gospel back at me.
How is API verified open finances "anecdotal events" lil'troll+¬?
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: I find it sad, enlightening, and humourous, all at the same time, that I have goons screaming " I get billions of ISK, all in easy mode from my benefactors in leadership", while we have a post describing how many programs are about to be taken away, and how many income streams are about to be taxed heavily, at the same time.
Is the typical goon truly that dumb or that deeply indoctrinated, that the can't see the simple truth about how much ISK your handlers take in, and how much they give out?
If i put 100 in and take 1000 out i fail to see how that is being taxed heavily. From where i stand it is you that is indoctrinated but in pubbie nonsense.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Oh, and by the way, does not bragging about how you get billions in "easy mode" kind of negate your propaganda about how difficult it is to live in null sec, and how high sec must be nerfed to "rebalance" the risk/ reward paradigm?
Really, whomever is running the goon propaganda team, you have to keep these guys on a tighter leash.
I'm getting billions because im losing ships. How is that easy mode you simpleton?
|

Callduron
369
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 07:15:00 -
[18] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote: You're right bro. I'll never see any of that isk.
SmilingVagrant wrote: You're right bro. I'll never see any of that isk.
SmilingVagrant wrote: You're right bro. I'll never see any of that isk.
If you know your history, Then you would know where you coming from, Then you wouldnt have to ask me, Who the heck do you think I am. - Bob Marley
2007:
Quote:Remedial, their one time leader, had decided to quit playing EVE. In the process, the story goes, he stole the fund that the Goons were using to build a Titan. http://www.eve-tribune.com/print.php?no=2_29
2009: Suas I robbed a goon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBY-72hN4hE (Wonderful Eve song by the way! <3 Suas).
2010:
Quote:Karttoon had been considering sabotaging GoonSwarm for a month before his final action. At that time, he had placed agents close to GoonSwarm caches of war material and taken a stock of logistics ships worth, he said GÇ£tens of billionsGÇ¥ from the outpost in NOL-M9 to low security space http://www.eve-online-fan.co.uk/2010/02/karttoon-claims-goonswarm-dissolution-was-euthanasia/
2013: The entire Goon purse is in an alt corp called DJ's retirement fund. That's an embezzlement joke in case any of you Goons missed it. |

WarFireV
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
90
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 16:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
I once RMTed isk for stuff in an internet spaceship game. I am such a bad person :( |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8188
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 17:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
Wow, I'm a Goonswarm director and it seems Callduron and Dinsdale are more aware of our financial situation than I am
Oh wait they're not and they're just making **** up Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8189
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 17:47:00 -
[21] - Quote
Also Callduron can you ask Packetninja why they suddenly decided to make the TEST accounting sheet private? Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |

SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1743
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 18:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
Andski wrote:Also Callduron can you ask Packetninja why they suddenly decided to make the TEST accounting sheet private?
Oh I can answer that. It's because it's a funny joke that has been bleeding isk in the "defense" of delve. |

Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
235
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 23:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
I've always replaced all of my own ships regardless of alliance srp's. That's one of the benefits of being self-sufficient.
I'm bringing my purifiers down for the party.
Like before Retribution, by bounty is up for grabs.
Seeya guys on the field  See Bio for isk doubling rules. -áIf you didn't read bio, chances are you helped fund those who did. |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8191
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 00:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
Erotica 1 wrote:I've always replaced all of my own ships regardless of alliance srp's. That's one of the benefits of being self-sufficient. I'm bringing my purifiers down for the party. Like before Retribution, by bounty is up for grabs. Seeya guys on the field 
Not everyone can have a successful ISK doubling operation. Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |

Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
243
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 03:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
The keys to my success are rather simple- be totally honest and craft rules that trip the illiterate up.
The Test guys I think are just questioning their reading comprehension.
I mean c'mon guys, look at the bounty office. That bounty is tips from my clients. Beyond that, all you have to do is ask around or check the forums. Heck, Google: eve online isk doubler. Even Google says I'm number 1. See Bio for isk doubling rules. -áIf you didn't read bio, chances are you helped fund those who did. |

Callduron
372
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 05:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
Andski wrote:Also Callduron can you ask Packetninja why they suddenly decided to make the TEST accounting sheet private?
Goons 2013, Revenge of the Accountants. |

Callduron
372
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 06:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
Andski wrote:Wow, I'm a Goonswarm director and it seems Callduron and Dinsdale are more aware of our financial situation than I am
Oh wait they're not and they're just making **** up
Hi, Tosh didn't make it very clear.
The wall of text in the OP and two successive posts was written by Aryth, Goon Chief Finance Officer and published on the Goons private Eve guild forum. It's pinned in the War Room.
As a Director you probably ought to clue yourself up on what your alliance is doing.
Especially if you intend to follow in the footsteps of honored previous Goon luminaries such as Remedial, Suas and Karttoon and steal everything you can grab. You need to have got that sorted and the stuff moved out to low sec before TEST come up and deadzone VFK. |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8206
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 10:55:00 -
[28] - Quote
I'd mine veldspar in a venture even with an 80% refining tax if it meant that my stomping grounds weren't going to be infested with filthy renter scum Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |

Callduron
372
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 11:52:00 -
[29] - Quote
Andski wrote:I'd mine veldspar in a venture even with an 80% refining tax if it meant that my stomping grounds weren't going to be infested with filthy renter scum
If you lose this war you might have to. |

Kainos Kerensky
Shadows Of The Requiem The Predictables
473
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 11:54:00 -
[30] - Quote
Once again, another terrible attempt at a "trolling." All you've done is show that Goons are being proactive and finding solutions within the given game mechanics. As it stands, a 5% tax on the stations they mentioned is nothing to an individual, but on the collective level, means the difference between a fully funded and functional alliance, and the inability to provide services for it's members. You're acting like taxation is some sort of crime. To be honest, only self centered pubies will cry over a tax. Hell, I run a small corp and my members got together and decided to go from 0% tax to 10% tax just so there's some spare change if we want to give out free ships or some crap. I think your perspective is either diluted, or you're just as immature as the scrubs that would cry over a tax that supports the alliance ammenities they use.
Oh yea, why is Goons' wallet a concern anyway to TEST? Last we heard from TEST is how goons will just die to them anyway or something like that. Wouldn't their isk "troubles" be nill at that point? Kainos Kerensky SOTR CEO "Prepare for teh Vandersex!" www.sotr-corp.com
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