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Grace Ishukone Ishukone Advanced Research 15	Posted - 2013.06.08 13:31:00 - [1] - Quote Title says it all. This is the current reality of the game in nullsec. Want to win in sov warfare? Hire Pandemic Leigon. Want to do pretty much anything else in EVE? Buy a veteran character with the required skills, buy the ships you need, and click the "I win" button. Am I upset? Sure am. When I started playing a long time ago (yes, this is an alt), player skill meant something. Now you only need real world money to buy the I WIN ships, and unless you are completely idiotic, you will win. It is no wonder nullsec is dead and empty. You can only build t1 ships if you mine there yourself, everything else you need to farm in highsec or buy from Jita (because yes, you can't possibly get enough goo to make t2 ships using alchemy with a few moons because the goo is too rare to permit that. You have to go to Jita to make a t2 ship in nullsec ... which is stupid). Lowsec is humming at the moment, but I would like CCP to admit the statistics on just how many players quit, having been lured into lowsec with the rumors of riches and exploration, only to be mercilessly butchered by veteran pvpers whom they could never beat. Highsec ... well I kinda like highsec. Except if I want to play in carebear land, well ... I have world of warcraft, and I can be a panda. So yes, in my view we are now in the age of pay to win. The flight of a thousand rifters rather emphasized the point - even a thousand t1 frigates were simply no threat at all to the Nyx. None. Yet a Nglafar can 2 shot kill a tanked pvp brutix. So my thoughts on EVE at the 10 year mark? All in all - stop playing with fluff like animations on warp gates that crash you out in the middle of jumping in nullsec, and announce you to local 2 seconds before you land, and go back to the basics. The map makes too much of nullsec inaccessible to players who are mechanically forced to buy things they need from highsec, jump bridges and cynos make it far too easy for tiny numbers of players to effectively control entire regions of nullsec without ever playing there, and when it comes down to it the easiest way to win in EVE is now to pay to win. That all has to change. - jump range on capitals should be reduced 50% - bridge range on titans similarly reduced - jump range on carriers should be the same - jump range on jump freighters should be 50% more - bottleneck map points should have second and third pathways added - nullsec should have NPC highsec areas added. Most of the players play in highsec anyway, Odyssey will never change that due to machnics forcing players to go to highsec anyway (for skill books, parts, and goo trading) - so bring highsec to null. - review the concept of ships - capitals should NEVER be immune to 1,000 rifters, and should not be 2 shotting small ships. PvP used to be fun in EVE. Now ... it's more fun on SiSi than tranquility. Fix nullsec, and stop the pay to win trend, or simply give up and give us pandas in space. After all, we have Mintchip now, so the jovians really are king-fu pandas, right? I knew it.
Combatevolved Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors 26	Posted - 2013.06.08 17:50:00 - [2] - Quote Can I have your stuff? Contract is fine.
Vizvig Savage Blizzard Bright Side of Death 90	Posted - 2013.06.08 19:29:00 - [3] - Quote Approve all. There is 4 points to make pay 2 win mechanic: 1 infinite skillpoint growth 2 farming infinite powerful things 3 PLEX 4 lack of a coherent physical model (physics can open way to exploits) And i tell you truth: it is not hard to balance, it is not a mistake. It is by design. So here i should ask (why not?): can i have your stuff?
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats 543	Posted - 2013.06.08 20:19:00 - [4] - Quote If you want more balanced pvp, fight in FW plexes in lowsec. - Cyno's can't be lit - You can restrict ship sizes from entering (go into a novice, onto t1 and faction frigs) - The blob that comes after you've started the fight can't warp directly to you
Major Killz 206	Posted - 2013.06.08 21:37:00 - [5] - Quote Huh!? I have been playing this game since late 2007. Since that time I have been known by 33 characters. This character was bought not to long ago and a person could purchase characters when I started. NOTHING HAS CHANGED. So, in a way there is a system in place to BUY skill-points. Something that people cried about not wanting and started a big lame protest by many players in game. So you CAN "PAY TO WIN" or pay to have ALOT more advantages than others. AS far as 0.0 being weird? You do not need pandemic Legion to own space. There are rental programs in place by many sovereignty holding entities that can help in that regard. Systems like that have been in place since I joined the game. Ultimately 0.0 is a game of choosing the right allies and focusing on what matters and has worked in the pass. For example; an alliance should have a make up of 98% PVE/PVPERS and 2% industrialist because other than massive amounts of ore that can be imported from high security space. You only need a small group of players that can do production. In fact a team of 30 manufactures can support an alliance of TEST size provided it is doctrine specific ships and they can important all the minerals. So a logistics team. Otherwise 0.0 is not a place for a industrial corporation and they are treated as such by any entity worth a grain of salt and. Industrial corporations and players are a dime a dozen. What you need in 0.0 to survive is a LARGE amount of combat pilots and the logistics and management to support that group. Everyone likes to blame someTHING or someONE when they are not winning or having fun any more. I have noticed that people have put propaganda on a pedestal like its a thing now that is the reason entities fail. Well look at all those ELEET combat entities. That ** does not seem to determine whether they win or lose. You can put out all the crap you want and pilots can believe until they run out of isk. However, if you cannot win in combat all that PROPAGANDA means sh!t. Just another thing to blame for failure. Diplomacy is another thing entirely though. At a certain point numbers matter and the self proclaimed CFC have that. Does not mean the CFC will never lose engagements. They do so all the time. Just means you often cannot engage them in situation where they can bring there numbers to bear (guerilla tactics). For example: if a wide spread number of alliances (like 15- 30) that are R n K's size working together could do MASSIVE amount of damage in coordinated attacks. So the CFC numbers must be split to attempt to handle the threat and when that happens. Those pay to WIN HIGH SP alliances that focus on experience and skill will come out on top. As for why null sec is the way it is. The answer is simple. ORGANIZATION! That's the big problem that everyone tries to fix with more ways to make that easier. If CCP removed the alliance system. Then coordinating multiple corporations and personalities becomes ALOT MORE difficult. Restricting the size of a corporation to 200 would also help. Believe me. A leader of a coalition has an easier time coordinating 7 alliances than what it would take to organize a coalition of the 700 corporations those 7 alliances now make up. This will not STOP organization but it will make it HELLA hard. It would split up alliances like Pandemic legion to just those corporation that are currently in them. They would still be able to work together like nothing has changed but admining that would be HARDER to do. More than anything it would turn 0.0 more into fiefdoms that fight and would make controlling all those personalities and rivalries harder to manage and contain. Reducing sov from regional control to just system control would also help. So a corp would control a constellation and call that constellation whatever it wants and have its stamp on it. I would also make holding up keeping a system serious biz. At-least the benefits you'd get from it. Not just build structure and go away but a progress bar that diminishes if you are not up-keeping the system (using it). You could put ** like jammers in those systems and really it would be about the moons and the resources in that system and it would not be effected by total sov or owning other systems in a WHOLE REGION. So system by system based system where if you aint doing sh!t there your structures go OFFLINE. This will not get rid of ELEET entities in fact it may make them more numerous and spread all over the universe. This will not get rid of organization it would just make things like the CFC almost impossible to do kinda like monopoly laws in real life. It would also give alot of new players and entities a chance to get together with 7 or so and engage an area to take multiple systems from the 7 or 12 corporations already together in their little peaceful area. ALOT MORE CREATIVE DESTRUCTION. It might even bring down the BLOB sizes. - killz
Major Killz 206	Posted - 2013.06.08 21:52:00 - [6] - Quote Oh. I expect test alliance please ignore to lose fountain and go broke (they have lost half a trillion isk in ships and the month just started). How long until the 2 coalition surrounding Test alliance please ignore and Tribal band will turn both their regions into a national park. You know, where you take the kids and wife to go hunting and live in the woods. Sooner or later Delve may be taken or Test please ignore will beg for mercy and kept as pets and maybe tribal band will be left as a tick on said pet. Anyway. The point is. If you are an alliance living in 0.0 with a SRP program and you're barely managing to break even. If you are not willing to go to war and look for new sources of income. I suggest removing corporations and pilots who are not pulling their wait. More importantly I suggest removing incompetent pilots and leaders because you cannot afford to help the disabled any-more. Some alliances are already doing so.
Pr1ncess Alia Perkone Caldari State 322	Posted - 2013.06.09 06:45:00 - [7] - Quote You make some good points. And then drown them in a sea of b.s. It's ok, I do the same thing too on the forums sometimes. We probably share the same mental illnesses
David Devant CTRL-Q Iron Oxide. 82	Posted - 2013.06.09 08:41:00 - [8] - Quote I entirely approve of making it harder to project power in this game. Its too easy for the bigger boys to come **** in your sandpit. I'm not sure about the pay to win element though, in FW low sec I could start a toon from scratch and be ratcheting up kills in a week (although my target selection would be somewhat diminished admittedly). As for null alliances, they are irritating, but if someone's going to put that much effort in they should expect results. If you do pay to win in this game you pay with your time. Just let go of your pretensions and become a FW scrub like the rest of us in here. You'll be much happier.
Bad Messenger Nasranite Watch Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 517	Posted - 2013.06.09 09:47:00 - [9] - Quote If PL is the problem then kill it. problem solved
Seraph Castillon Justified Chaos 67	Posted - 2013.06.09 09:54:00 - [10] - Quote Grace Ishukone wrote: Lowsec is humming at the moment, but I would like CCP to admit the statistics on just how many players quit, having been lured into lowsec with the rumors of riches and exploration, only to be mercilessly butchered by veteran pvpers whom they could never beat. This is such utter bullshit. There are new guys in my corp owning faction frigs and what not in their meta 1-3 fit Atrons. Eve PvP isn't easy. Don't go blaming the game because you don't have what it takes or are reluctant to learn. Watch the PvP videos, look at the killboards of good players and join a decent corp. There are plenty of good PvP corporations that have an open recruitment policy. They are the perfect environment to learn as they have people that, for the most part, know what they are doing. If you lose a fight, don't accept the answer that your opponent "payed to win". Think about what you actually did wrong. Yes, there are people flying around with OGB or Falcon alts. Learn to spot them and don't give them the gratification of a fight. Or even better, outfox them and kill them anyway. Also: if you got lured into lowsec with riches and those riches weren't FW then you are an idiot.
Ordellus ORI Ground Forces 14	Posted - 2013.06.09 11:19:00 - [11] - Quote Eve has always been pay to win since I started playing. Buying a character that you didn't earn is pay to win. Buying isk is pay to win. Buying ships and blue print copies is pay to win. If it's something a player uses while playing, and you buy it with cash.... it's pay to win. Now all of the players that don't actually like to play their games will argue that "no advantage, just convienice" crap. It is possible for a new player with a new toon to die to a 40 million sp toon with 2 billion isk worth of faction ships and modules piloted by another new player, simply because of actual money. It doesn't get any more pay to win than that. So yeah, sorry OP but EVE isn't about playing a video game. Eve is about paying lots of money, being an *******, and pretending you won something through actual skill, then getting made if someone calls you to your face. Hell, this is the only game I've heard of where people are actually proud to abuse programming to achieve a result, and get off the game thinking they are gamers...... it's just another footnote in the decline of the quality of games and people.
Infinity Ziona Cloakers 57	Posted - 2013.06.10 01:31:00 - [12] - Quote OP makes valid points. Nullsec and its mechanics are a joke. Too easy to lock up large swathes of null because of its layout and ease of bridge travel. I agree with more npc null, more entyr points and Id also suggest the occassional pirate faction outpost in non npc null. I avoid player null at all costs, Im not afraid of the players in fact once past chokes its safer than low. I avoid it because theres no place to refit, resupply, sell or do anything that would make it worthwhile to go out there. The design of null doesnt attract people there because to operate out of alliance in null is a massive PITA.
Joan Greywind I Moan ALOT We Moan ALOT 7	Posted - 2013.06.10 07:56:00 - [13] - Quote I have consulted the local doctor and the consensus seems to be you are down with "bittervet syndrome". Symptoms include delusional memories of "better times", blaming features and pilots at random for imaginary problems, and coming up with contradictory solutions that "sound nice and sophisticated". Cures include going out to take a doze of sunlight, or go to minerbumping so you can curb your thirst on some miner tears, or simply check out the new Apocalypse hull. Just to respond to a few points: Buying characters is not pay to win, please refer to the multitudes of alod aritcles and various killmaills for dead supers and titans for proof of that. If winning for you means being featured on the kill of the week article, then I apologize for misunderstanding. The character bazaar is one of the best features in EVE. Without it the older players will have a permanent advantage over newer players, and the motto will be "older to win". Personally if the character bazaar didn't exist I wouldn't have continued playing this game because it would have taken ages to get a character that I could play with. Just a reminder making isk is not that easy. You can have an advantage by making isk, and if you do you kinda deserve it. After all making isk takes some degree of effort / skill. And just remember having a skilled pilot or a shiny ship doesn't mean ** in this game without the proper knowledge, experience, skill, and friends. And saying that EVE cares about "fluff" is hogwash at best. The graphical upgrades only adds to the atmosphere and make EVE more appealing. The jump feature is simple yet very well made, just watch the video for the reactions when CCP soundwave first introduced it. It is definitely better than watching a loading bar. Criticizing something like that is cheap at best. First and foremost EVE is a game of spreadsheets and windows in space, but it still looks beautiful (just take a look at the background) and there is nothing wrong with trying to make it look better (as long as it is not the priority). A 1000 rifters still cost 1/50th of a nyx's price, the rifters were being blown up like crazy and there was no coordination, and fyi the nyx will also have a difficult time in killing all those rifters (smartbombs dont count, they could orbit at range). And a nag costs 3-4b a brutix cost 50m, and the nag cant kill the brutix unless it was heavily webbed and painted, or staying at 0 m/s (bad brutix pilot). I still don't get the argument about imbalance, especially after we had this major overhaul in ship rebalancing, which really seems impossible in the time frame that CCP hada accomplished it in. Again this is just a few replies to let to see how ridiculous your arguments sound. I am not saying there isn't problems in EVE or that nullsec is perfect, but the amount of changes and improvements brought in the previous expansions was mind boggling and credit should be given where it is earned. So thank you CCP for making a game like EVE, (and please remember this for my next reimbursement petition) and really OP you should chill the ** out. I love how how the "2003" characters forget the days of 7 heat sinked alpha armagaddon, or the overpowered DD's, Supers that don't die, and titans that single blap logies with officer tracking computers, and many many more. Memory is a fickly thing. (sorry for being especially mean today, I am at work and bored)
Meditril T.R.I.A.D 292	Posted - 2013.06.10 10:27:00 - [14] - Quote First, 0.0 is broken and is mainly blob-warefare. Haven't been there for longer time, so you might be correct. Second, who cares about 0.0? Just come to Faction Warefare low-sec space and you will see that real skills count more than just bought characters or ISK.
Trinkets friend Minmatar-Amarr Man-Boy Love Association 1021	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:14:00 - [15] - Quote I am involved in pay-to-win. People pay 10-30% markup for the stuff I stock in lowsec, and I win 100M a day while not logging in for 2 weeks while I am out in the desert licking rocks. Does that make the game broken, or beautiful? Indigently pwning indifferently. Some sucker buy me a Naglfar. http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
Vizvig Savage Blizzard Bright Side of Death 90	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:45:00 - [16] - Quote Meditril wrote: First, 0.0 is broken and is mainly blob-warefare. Haven't been there for longer time, so you might be correct. Second, who cares about 0.0? Just come to Faction Warefare low-sec space and you will see that real skills count more than just bought characters or ISK. So if i in low sec use titan, Black Ops, nameless cyno neutrals and killin&lootin countless number of people who think that skill is something valuable. How about it?
March rabbit epTa Team Inc. 715	Posted - 2013.06.11 12:11:00 - [17] - Quote Major Killz wrote: AS far as 0.0 being weird? You do not need pandemic Legion to own space. There are rental programs in place by many sovereignty holding entities that can help in that regard. - killz Sounds like "Eve Online: YOU can change the universe" for me. No jokes.
feihcsiM Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 251	Posted - 2013.06.11 12:28:00 - [18] - Quote "PAY TO WIN" depends on your definition of 'win' I guess. To me winning = enjoying myself. My mains all have well over 100mil SP but also have a character on one of my accounts with a grand total of about 12 days training. He flies T1 dessies/frigs with T1 guns. I can honestly say flying on that char with my corp mates all doing stupid stuff in cheap-ass fits with barely trained characters and taking ANY fight just for the grins is some of the most fun I've ever had in eve, win or lose. It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine.
Meditril T.R.I.A.D 293	Posted - 2013.06.11 13:02:00 - [19] - Quote Vizvig wrote: Meditril wrote: First, 0.0 is broken and is mainly blob-warefare. Haven't been there for longer time, so you might be correct. Second, who cares about 0.0? Just come to Faction Warefare low-sec space and you will see that real skills count more than just bought characters or ISK. So if i in low sec use titan, Black Ops, nameless cyno neutrals and killin&lootin countless number of people who think that skill is something valuable. How about it? I really do not understand what is your message of your statement. Titans, Black Ops etc. are mostly useless in low-sec FW space because fights are usually happening in plexes which mostly don't grant access to these types of ships. You naturally could use them for bash a hub or POS here or there... but they work as pirate magnet... so expect every pirate and his dog to come and fight you whenever your bring something like this out. You will probably lose it faster then you expect which means it is not cost efficient... therefore everyone just uses small stuff in FW even for hub and POS bash.
Mirana Niranne Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc. Monkeys with Guns. 30	Posted - 2013.06.11 17:38:00 - [20] - Quote My dashingly sexy outfit is a perfect example of pay to win. If looks could kill...
X Gallentius Justified Chaos 1448	Posted - 2013.06.11 18:47:00 - [21] - Quote Seraph Castillon wrote: This is such utter bullshit. There are new guys in my corp owning faction frigs and what not in their meta 1-3 fit Atrons. Don't listen to this guy. Our guys are horrible and they lose too many T1 frigs to OP 100 million isk faction frigs. I have tried to get them into Comet and then Daredevils, but they can't afford it because FW LP store has gone down the toilet. sigh Is there nothing that can halt the advance of Snake-Set implanted nano-kitey drams?!! Eve is so broken!
Mirana Niranne Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc. Monkeys with Guns. 30	Posted - 2013.06.11 19:01:00 - [22] - Quote X Gallentius wrote: Seraph Castillon wrote: This is such utter bullshit. There are new guys in my corp owning faction frigs and what not in their meta 1-3 fit Atrons. Don't listen to this guy. Our guys are horrible and they lose too many T1 frigs to OP 100 million isk faction frigs. I have tried to get them into Comet and then Daredevils, but they can't afford it because FW LP store has gone down the toilet. sigh Is there nothing that can halt the advance of Snake-Set implanted nano-kitey drams?!! Eve is so broken! Only if you can't shoot lasers from your eyes. I have to take off my shades to PvP.
Vizvig Savage Blizzard Bright Side of Death 91	Posted - 2013.06.12 05:14:00 - [23] - Quote Meditril wrote: You naturally could use them for bash a hub or POS here or there... but they work as pirate magnet... so expect every pirate and his dog to come and fight you whenever your bring something like this out. You will probably lose it faster then you expect Low sec titan with guns? Bashing i-hubs? You mad or just not know what titans should do in low sec.
Cannibal Kane Viziam Amarr Empire 1860	Posted - 2013.06.12 06:17:00 - [24] - Quote I have met new players that buy old characters. They die horribly every time. "I saw him fight by the monument in Jita. -áHe flowed in his Machariel like a Shinto spirit, 800MM shells sprouting in his passing. -áHis hair flowed in the corona of his target's warp core breach. -áIt was truly majestic. -áAnd while everyone stared in awe I stole the loot and ran off.-áBecause I am like that." --áNEONOVUS
Froggy Storm Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement 41	Posted - 2013.06.12 08:27:00 - [25] - Quote I must agree with Mr Kane here. Always always always bet on stupid. The 3m skill guy spending his last isk for that new drake is just as dead as the fellow spending $30usd to buy a 30m so pilot to sit in the same drake. Fleet fights not withstanding, the idea that the ship or sp makes the fight is just a lazy argument. If the complaint is OGB then there is no reason any one can't have one. So often people complain about spending "real" currency for isk but forget that the door swings both ways. For what that person worked at his/her real job for you can do without leaving your computer. In fact given the wage disparity across most of the developed world I bet that the guy doing wh sites or what ever pulls in better "imaginary" wages than a lot of people if they put in a 8 or 12 hr day. So to the op go make some cash/isk and buy that booster super or what ever it is you got killed by or upset over. TL:DR: Isk isn't real money but you can spend it in game as if it was just like your opponent. If you think it is pay to win go mine a ton of isk in your preferred way and see how far it gets you buying whatever "I win" you want to get killed in.
Bouh Revetoile TIPIAKS 341	Posted - 2013.06.12 09:47:00 - [26] - Quote Sometimes, I think it should be called pay2lose, because there's nothing more juicy than a noob in a tengu in lowsec. And most of the time, you even get a juicy pod with it ! And then, the tears : "how is it I can't kill you after spending all this money ! This game is broken !"
March rabbit epTa Team Inc. 717	Posted - 2013.06.12 12:56:00 - [27] - Quote Bouh Revetoile wrote: Sometimes, I think it should be called pay2lose, because there's nothing more juicy than a noob in a tengu in lowsec. And most of the time, you even get a juicy pod with it ! And then, the tears : "how is it I can't kill you after spending all this money ! This game is broken !" true there is nothing better than killing n00b and see: you only won because he IS n00b. These kills show you one more time how good you are
Oska Rus Free Ice Cream People 15	Posted - 2013.06.12 22:12:00 - [28] - Quote there are no supers in w-space. he he he.
Ordellus ORI Ground Forces 15	Posted - 2013.06.13 00:19:00 - [29] - Quote Bouh Revetoile wrote: Sometimes, I think it should be called pay2lose, because there's nothing more juicy than a noob in a tengu in lowsec. See that logic holds as long as you don't think about it. Claiming players that spend money on ships and what-not don't have a huge advantage based on the fact that you fooled a noob is just silly. Although I'm sure pretending you proved yourself is a nice feeling...
Froggy Storm Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement 41	Posted - 2013.06.13 01:46:00 - [30] - Quote Ordellus wrote: Bouh Revetoile wrote: Sometimes, I think it should be called pay2lose, because there's nothing more juicy than a noob in a tengu in lowsec. See that logic holds as long as you don't think about it. Claiming players that spend money on ships and what-not don't have a huge advantage based on the fact that you fooled a noob is just silly. Although I'm sure pretending you proved yourself is a nice feeling... To the contrary this is the heart of the debate. The only "advantage" cited is the ability to cut down on the time to "get stuff". Be it a complaint of running a shiney that was paid for with plex or buying a character to jump into a tengu. At the end of the day the player behind the computer is the same person and has the precise same skill level. Thus time invested is all that has been circumvented. Or do you mean to say a 8 year bittervet with no idea how to play "deserves" to win when outplayed by a 1 year well rounded player? The skill of the human being is far and away the biggest (perhaps only) real critical factor involved in advantage in eve. The fact that blobs exist is proof of that. The one and only way to mitigate poor players is to bury the field in their welped corpses. Such that you just need one guy with clue one to say "pick that red square and hit F1".

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