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ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate
S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1409
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Posted - 2013.06.09 10:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Why does it matter? If you can fly a T3, you can fly a HAC.
Eerm no, check the requirements next time you log in? The Proteus requires neither Weapon Upgrades V nor Energy Grid Upgrades V, for example.
As for the OP: Tom Gerard may usually be a shiptoasting loon, but this is a topic very dear to me and he has my complete support. The idea of "flexibility" in a ship is ludicrous; for the cost of a T3 you can buy a fleet of every T2 cruiser. Nor does a T2 require the skill investment to reach the same level of performance. The subsystems we swap out with have to remain in a station anyway and we cannot remove rigs. The only feasible role of a T3, therefore, is to be top of the food chain for that cost. They're fine as they are, besides usurping command ships.
Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate
S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1409
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 10:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Well I'll be happy to see the change. PvP will be much better when there are 12 great combat cruisers to choose from instead of just one. ElQuirko wrote:Eerm no, check the requirements next time you log in? The Proteus requires neither Weapon Upgrades V nor Energy Grid Upgrades V, for example. So train them? To be honest Energy Grid Upgrades V is a weird requirement to have for HACs. I thought the whole point of changing skill requirements was so that players wouldn't have to train irrelevant skills to fly the ships they want.
There are 12 great combat cruisers to choose from already. T3s are balanced by the fact that they cost an arm and a leg in both ISK and skillpoints and areas vulnerable as their T2 counterparts if not more. Difference is you've gotta hammer on them a bit longer. Every ship has its counter - if you so chose you could kill a Proteus with a Stabber, and that's not even T2. And let's not even talk about the Legion, that thing's needed work from day one.
And "just train them" ain't the point. I happen to have 'em trained, but you said "If you can fly a HAC you can fly a T3". It's not true. Simple as.
Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate
S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1413
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 10:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sanadras Riahn wrote:In a game of role-based combat, having a ship that can fill multiple roles is a huge boon. Right now, T3s are OP. If they brought them back in line to, say, be able to fill two roles at once, and did just as well as some dedicated ships, and then brought their cost a bit more in line, it'd give an advantage to T3, promote customization and varying fits, and prevent it from being over-the-top any longer.
This is a perfectly valid point. IF they were as good as dedicated ships but could be a swiss-army knife it'd be lovely. But they're not and they can't. Ever tried EFT-warrioring a logistics T3? They're terrible. The ECM Tengu is nowhere near as powerful as the Falcon. The laser-Legion is totally outclassed by the Zealot and ONI. The Loki... well, the Loki is a bit OP even by T3 standards. But it cannot tank. Point being, where the T3s cannot excel against their cheaper counterparts they are completely ignored. T3s today are only used as gunboats because that is the only thing they do well. If they had the pricetag they currently had and couldn't beat T2s, I doubt you'd see them used as anything more than cloaky haulers that ignore bubbles in nullsec.
And let's talk about switching subsystems. Unless you could do this in-space without carrying an entire set of subsystems and fits in your cargo it's still a tiny bit useless since you may as well just dock and fetch another ship.
Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate
S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1413
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 10:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote: Cost is irrelevant to balance.
Is it not? Feel free to go out into lowsec in your supposedly OP T3. You should easily be able to kill everything right?  Risk-free PVP, totally.
Proteus moves slow like walrus. Loki cannot tank. Tengu has the sig radius of god. Legion is just legion.
Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate
S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1413
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 10:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Quote:The laser-Legion is totally outclassed by the Zealot Not at all.
Eerm, yes, it is. Go on out and find me a legion fit with lasers that is as pragmatic and powerful as the Zealot or ONI.
Quote:T3s are yet to be rebalanced. I doubt CCP are going to let them become useless.
Point is that making them weaker than T2 without making them on-the-go shapeshifters is going to relegate them to almost-useless status.
Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate
S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1413
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 10:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote: What does that have to do with ship balance?
Doesn't. But the point is they're not nearly as expendable as T2, thus they're not nearly as commonplace in combat unless the combatants using the T3s are guaranteed a victory, hence the image of "OP".
Quote: So they're not universally immortal, that doesn't mean they're balanced.
Generally it does. When you say "balanced", do you mean "dies to my ships because I can't afford it"? It's a T3. It costs at least 6x as much as a T2 ship. It costs skillpoints. It should be better than T2.
Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate
S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1413
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 12:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:But it is better .. at generalisation meaning flexible. It is like a swiss army knife and very useful if there are constraints on how much you can take with you. But you are almost always better off bringing a real pair of scissors if you plan to do some serious tailoring.
But there is no such flexibility. The point of flexibility is to be pragmatic and allow for on-the-fly changes; with the current state of T3s and the way the fitting system works, all refitting comes from a static point - the hangar where the subsystems and modules are kept. The idea of a "swiss army knife" is lovely, but as I've said a couple of times before if you're going to dock up to refit you may as well dock up and get another ship. It's the same price to buy one of every T2 cruiser as to buy a single T3, and a hangar full of ships is about as mobile as a hangar full of subsystems and modules when it comes down to it. The point I want to make is that to make the T3s "swiss army knives" CCP will either have to completely revamp the subsystems system, or accept the fact that T3s have become gunboats. Hell, even the rigging system forces specialisation on T3s that are supposed to be liquid and ever-changing. While I agree it would be lovely to see the properly protean T3s, it seems futile to lessen the power of the T3 ships without giving them some sort of in-space purpose-changing function.
Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate
S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1413
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 12:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:ElQuirko wrote:While I agree it would be lovely to see the properly protean T3s, it seems futile to lessen the power of the T3 ships without giving them some sort of in-space purpose-changing function. No it makes perfect sense to lower T3 cruisers so that they are balanced with the other cruisers.
No, it really doesn't. Care to explain your point?
Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate
S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1414
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 13:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:Yeah, because at +1bil for a fit ship doing two jobs, you could have 2 ships at half the cost doing each of those jobs with twice the tank/dps. And when you die in a ball of fire flying that amazing dual role T3 you can pat yourself on the back for a job well done, "Yeah! I'm amazing, I just lost +1bil and a subsystem level in skills!" Makes perfect sense. I guess that makes using T2 ships the more practical option in that scenario. No, it makes not overspending on modules and fitting sensibly the more practical option.
Bravo, more insightful and useful commentary from GD's most prevalent snark.
Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate
S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1414
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 14:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tippia wrote: I'm merely pointing out that, no, T3s do not cost 1bn+ to fit (or, if they do then so do T2s so it makes no difference either way), nor do they cost four times as much as a T2 ship, and that no matter what you fly, bad fits makes the ship bad GÇö it has nothing to do with T2 vs. T3.
The hull and subs on your average T3 is going to set you back around 500-700mil. Granted that's not one bil, but many people like to stick faction mods on 'em to boost that performance past the levels seen in other ship classes.
Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
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