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T2 ammo in Faction/Officer weapons!

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Paikis Vapour Holdings 844	Posted - 2013.06.09 16:20:00 - [1] - Quote The cost of a T2 Mega Pulse Laser is about 3.6m. The cost of an Imperial Navy Mega Pulse Laser is 75m. One of these guns is flat out better if you have the skills to fit it. Why? Because of T2 ammo. Ignoring the fact that Scorch is amazingly good, this applies to almost every other weapons system as well. The T2 ammo is so much better for most things, that if you can fit the T2 Gun/Launcher then you never look at the faction versions again. My solution? 1. Faction and Officer weapons can fit the T2 ammo types. 2. Faction and Officer weapons can still be fit with rubbish skills. 3. Faction and Officer weapons should be better than T2, but not by much. 3. T2 ammo itself now requires the specialisation skills in order to plug it into your weapons. There we go. T2 guns are still pretty good, and even still the 'standard' but if you can use them, but you want to spend a little bit more to get some performance increase, you now can, without losing access to T2 ammo.
Tsukino Stareine EVE University Ivy League 312	Posted - 2013.06.09 16:41:00 - [2] - Quote you substitute training time for a slightly inferior weapon nothing needs to be changed.
Paikis Vapour Holdings 844	Posted - 2013.06.09 17:20:00 - [3] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: you substitute training time for a slightly inferior weapon nothing needs to be changed. And where does this change in my OP? Don't have the spec skills? You can still use Faction/Officer guns... but no T2 ammo for you. Got the skills? OK, you can use T2 ammo in your faction guns.
Moonlit Raid State War Academy Caldari State 94	Posted - 2013.06.09 17:28:00 - [4] - Quote Paikis wrote: The cost of a T2 Mega Pulse Laser is about 3.6m. The cost of an Imperial Navy Mega Pulse Laser is 75m. One of these guns is flat out better if you have the skills to fit it. Why? Because of T2 ammo. Ignoring the fact that Scorch is amazingly good, this applies to almost every other weapons system as well. The T2 ammo is so much better for most things, that if you can fit the T2 Gun/Launcher then you never look at the faction versions again. My solution? 1. Faction and Officer weapons can fit the T2 ammo types. 2. Faction and Officer weapons can still be fit with rubbish skills. 3. Faction and Officer weapons should be better than T2, but not by much. 3. T2 ammo itself now requires the specialisation skills in order to plug it into your weapons. There we go. T2 guns are still pretty good, and even still the 'standard' but if you can use them, but you want to spend a little bit more to get some performance increase, you now can, without losing access to T2 ammo. I support this.
Tsukino Stareine EVE University Ivy League 317	Posted - 2013.06.09 18:25:00 - [5] - Quote Paikis wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: you substitute training time for a slightly inferior weapon nothing needs to be changed. And where does this change in my OP? Don't have the spec skills? You can still use Faction/Officer guns... but no T2 ammo for you. Got the skills? OK, you can use T2 ammo in your faction guns. You spend a lot of ISK for faction/officer guns why shouldn't they be slightly better than T2? Cause they dont require training time just ISK as I said before, you have a choice: money or time. Both will end up being roughly the same.
Kay Ahn Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 2	Posted - 2013.06.09 18:58:00 - [6] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: as I said before, you have a choice: money or time. Both will end up being roughly the same. But in Paikis' proposition, when you decide to spent both money AND time, you would have slightly superior option. Paikis: Sound like a good idea.
Jay Kreutzer High Life Industries Fade 2 Black 10	Posted - 2013.06.09 19:00:00 - [7] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: Paikis wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: you substitute training time for a slightly inferior weapon nothing needs to be changed. And where does this change in my OP? Don't have the spec skills? You can still use Faction/Officer guns... but no T2 ammo for you. Got the skills? OK, you can use T2 ammo in your faction guns. You spend a lot of ISK for faction/officer guns why shouldn't they be slightly better than T2? Cause they dont require training time just ISK as I said before, you have a choice: money or time. Both will end up being roughly the same. i find it funny someone in a learning-based corp is incapable of reading.
Tsukino Stareine EVE University Ivy League 317	Posted - 2013.06.09 19:08:00 - [8] - Quote Jay Kreutzer wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: Paikis wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: you substitute training time for a slightly inferior weapon nothing needs to be changed. And where does this change in my OP? Don't have the spec skills? You can still use Faction/Officer guns... but no T2 ammo for you. Got the skills? OK, you can use T2 ammo in your faction guns. You spend a lot of ISK for faction/officer guns why shouldn't they be slightly better than T2? Cause they dont require training time just ISK as I said before, you have a choice: money or time. Both will end up being roughly the same. i find it funny someone in a learning-based corp is incapable of reading. I find it funny that someone in a non-learning based corp is incapable of reading why has my corp got anything to do with my reading comprehension? Did I join EVE University to improve my English skills? Your corp certainly hasn't helped you in that regard. @Kay Because then this game becomes: who has the most time and money and that's not what eve is about. There's a reason only a certain amount of skills affect the modules and ships you use because otherwise new players have no roles here. A new player can drop 5 plex and buy some faction things to be on par with a vet but the vet gets the advantage of having the same stats but at a much reduced cost because he invested TIME into it. If the vet had the option to drop a few bil on officer weapons AND have the same advantages of his millions of SP, how fair is that to the people who will never catch up in SP because of the game design?
Falin Whalen GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 353	Posted - 2013.06.09 21:03:00 - [9] - Quote Paikis wrote: You spend a lot of ISK for faction/officer guns why shouldn't they be slightly better than T2? Ah, here we have the "if it costs more it should be better" argument. Well no, it shouldn't, sorry, sometimes paying more really doesn't get you better stuff, just more expensive stuff.. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons.
Paikis Vapour Holdings 845	Posted - 2013.06.09 21:58:00 - [10] - Quote Falin Whalen wrote: Paikis wrote: You spend a lot of ISK for faction/officer guns why shouldn't they be slightly better than T2? Ah, here we have the "if it costs more it should be better" argument. Well no, it shouldn't, sorry, sometimes paying more really doesn't get you better stuff, just more expensive stuff.. Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? No, no. You're right. Here let me pay 200x the amount for something that is patently worse... said no one ever.
Tsukino Stareine EVE University Ivy League 317	Posted - 2013.06.09 22:29:00 - [11] - Quote it's not worse cause you don't have to drop a months training time and in some cases they're just better (faction tachys on nightmare/paladins) it's just spending a different resource stop being a baby, you can't have your cake and eat it.
Paikis Vapour Holdings 847	Posted - 2013.06.09 22:48:00 - [12] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: it's not worse cause you don't have to drop a months training time and in some cases they're just better (faction tachys on nightmare/paladins) it's just spending a different resource stop being a baby, you can't have your cake and eat it. First, Faction Tachyons aren't better. They in fact do less damage with the same ammo, and can't use the T2 stuff (which admittedly isn't very good for Tachyons). They do however use less cap, which if you're bad is a good thing I guess. Secondly, why are you so butt hurt about this suggestion? How does it affect you? Why make it personal?
Tsukino Stareine EVE University Ivy League 317	Posted - 2013.06.09 23:00:00 - [13] - Quote where have I made it personal? I've just been putting across objective points against it because I do not think it's a good idea
DeLindsay Galaxies Fall 255	Posted - 2013.06.09 23:14:00 - [14] - Quote Paikis wrote: The cost of a T2 Mega Pulse Laser is about 3.6m. The cost of an Imperial Navy Mega Pulse Laser is 75m. One of these guns is flat out better if you have the skills to fit it. Why? Because of T2 ammo. Ignoring the fact that Scorch is amazingly good, this applies to almost every other weapons system as well. The T2 ammo is so much better for most things, that if you can fit the T2 Gun/Launcher then you never look at the faction versions again. My solution? 1. Faction and Officer weapons can fit the T2 ammo types. 2. Faction and Officer weapons can still be fit with rubbish skills. 3. Faction and Officer weapons should be better than T2, but not by much. 3. T2 ammo itself now requires the specialisation skills in order to plug it into your weapons. There we go. T2 guns are still pretty good, and even still the 'standard' but if you can use them, but you want to spend a little bit more to get some performance increase, you now can, without losing access to T2 ammo. As long as the same training requirements to fit T2 Guns/Launchers to the ship would be required to use the T2 ammo in faction+ Guns/Launchers then I'd support this. That's the main reason I haven't supported anyone bringing this up before, they all want to have ** skills while using superior Guns/Launchers with T2 ammo that have lower fitting reqs. The Operative:-á"There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now". Capt. Malcolm Reynolds:**-á"You have no idea how true that is".
Omnathious Deninard The Scope Gallente Federation 1138	Posted - 2013.06.09 23:55:00 - [15] - Quote The only thing that is wrong with faction weapons is the stupid high cost. Functionally they are fine. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious
Ginger Barbarella Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1352	Posted - 2013.06.10 00:56:00 - [16] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: it's not worse cause you don't have to drop a months training time and in some cases they're just better (faction tachys on nightmare/paladins) it's just spending a different resource stop being a baby, you can't have your cake and eat it. Do your EveUni leash holders know you're being a d-bag on the Forums?? "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Dato Koppla Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives 227	Posted - 2013.06.10 01:06:00 - [17] - Quote Functionally they are fine, what is holding them back is the cost, make it cheaper, problem solved. Btw, some faction weapons do have their tiny niches but people rarely use them because of their cost, making them straight up better isn't a good idea.
Frostys Virpio Lame Corp Name 485	Posted - 2013.06.10 03:11:00 - [18] - Quote Dato Koppla wrote: Functionally they are fine, what is holding them back is the cost, make it cheaper, problem solved. Btw, some faction weapons do have their tiny niches but people rarely use them because of their cost, making them straight up better isn't a good idea. What about removing the tag cost to buy them off the LP store? It would even act as an isk sink for the game no?
Mina Sebiestar Mactabilis Simplex Cursus 366	Posted - 2013.06.10 03:55:00 - [19] - Quote Maybe due to silly price tag it would be ok if faction guns have bigger clip size(not talking amarr here obviously). That way they wouldn't step in t2 rank directly..that is talking faction guns and beside lower fitting req you can overheat faction stuff like a baws while t2 will lol burn out much faster. Now we come to officer guns..well they do so much dmg over t2 that it is simple scary i don't see them in need of any help at all... Price on the other hand is different issue altogether. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions 1277	Posted - 2013.06.10 05:16:00 - [20] - Quote I've certainly seen worse proposals, but I'm still not comfortable with it. If we're sticking to the one simple change -- faction guns/launchers can use T2 ammo -- than the major underlying problems are actually exacerbated and nothing is solved at all. Which is to say, faction guns will still underperform compared to T2 under almost all circumstances (fringe case for CN rails duly noted; tachs get a boost they don't really need and won't really use). Launchers will shift suddenly and dramatically to "must have CN HMLsss!!!!!1one". Or cruise launchers. Whatever the cool mission kids have settled on these days. To say nothing for the fact that short range faction launchers would suddenly go into vogue (yay for CN torp launchers loaded with javelin on every half-decent Golem....) I dunno. It seems like it's part of a solution, but alone it doesn't address the actual problems. Which are rather messier to untangle.
Paikis Vapour Holdings 848	Posted - 2013.06.10 07:30:00 - [21] - Quote DeLindsay wrote: Paikis wrote: 3. T2 ammo itself now requires the specialisation skills in order to plug it into your weapons. As long as the same training requirements to fit T2 Guns/Launchers to the ship would be required to use the T2 ammo in faction+ Guns/Launchers then I'd support this. That's the main reason I haven't supported anyone bringing this up before, they all want to have **** skills while using superior Guns/Launchers with T2 ammo that have lower fitting reqs. Covered that bit here.
Tsukino Stareine EVE University Ivy League 317	Posted - 2013.06.10 07:51:00 - [22] - Quote Ginger Barbarella wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: it's not worse cause you don't have to drop a months training time and in some cases they're just better (faction tachys on nightmare/paladins) it's just spending a different resource stop being a baby, you can't have your cake and eat it. Do your EveUni leash holders know you're being a d-bag on the Forums?? Is your NPC corp spanking you hard enough???
Crellion Parental Control Raiden. 40	Posted - 2013.06.10 10:39:00 - [23] - Quote bah never mind good proposal though
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 575	Posted - 2013.06.10 10:45:00 - [24] - Quote no T2 ammo in T1 guns. Thats ok.
Rual Storge Caldari Provisions Caldari State 17	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:17:00 - [25] - Quote YEs! But only because my 1500dps sin needs 150 moar dps!
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 449	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:41:00 - [26] - Quote As I've said many times before: Faction guns and domination shield hardeners are the only cases where T2 > faction. In EVERY other case, Faction is equal or better in every way except availability/price. Everything else faction gets you T2 performance or better with less skill requirements, and less fitting requirements. Faction guns get you: Less DPS than T2 when using the same ammo T2 PG fitting requirements 7% less cap use than meta 4 and in the base of blasters: Less optimal than T2/meta 4 I propose that they be given meta 4 fitting requirements, and Meta 4/T2 base stats (which are basically identical), and: * Benefit from T2 spec skills * can load T2 ammo if T2 spec skills are trained * Larger magazine size for Hybrids and Projectiles, less cap use for Hybrids and lasers Faction launchers are a bit different, due to CCP being bad at math. Currently for Meta 0-4 guns: Optimal range and damge go up by 5%/meta level, while cap use (if applicable) goes down by 5% per meta level So a meta 4 has 20% more DPS, 20% more optimal, and only uses 80% the cap use. Most faction guns follow this progression for cap use and damage - ie an 1.25x the damage of meta 0, 0.75x the cap use of meta 0. Optimal is the same* Faction damage modifiers of 1.25 cannot compete with the spec skill that goes up to 1.1 which brings the T2 damage modifer up to 1.32x the meta 0 damage mod 1.25 < 1.32 Missiles on the other hand get ROF bonuses of 5%, which at high levels become very potent. Meta 4 has 80% the cycle time of meta 0, as does T2. However, as the cycle time reduction gets closer to 100, the effect of each % reduction gets greater. So, while the weapon specs for T2 easily makes up for the 5% bonus to faction DPS, it wouldn't work for missiles as well. 0.80.9= 0.72 vs what one would think would be a 0.75x cycle time modifier for faction launchers... a much smaller difference than seen with the guns. However, for reasons completely unknown to me, they made CN and Guristas launchers have a massive 30% cycle time reduction relative to meta 0, making them out DPS T2 launchers with spec V (assuming the same ammo is used). CN launchers do a massive 42% more DPS than T1 meta 0, 14.3% more than meta 4 While the lasers, blasers, Fed/serpentis rails do only 25% more DPS than T1 meta 0 and 4.2% more DPS than meta4 Arty does 26.3% more DPS than meta 0, 5.2% more DPS than meta 4 Guristas/ CN rails do the same DPS as meta 4s.. Guristas/CN launchers need to be nerfed, while the other faction guns need a buff - in particular the blasters. Exceptions: Optimal for Faction blasters, in which it gets worse, and CN rails, where the optimal is another 10% better, but damage is only meta 4 levels. Arty doesn't get an additional 5% to the damage modifier, but instead gets 5% better ROF (for 5.3% better DPS)
Stetson Eagle ROC Academy The ROC 41	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:19:00 - [27] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: where have I made it personal? I've just been putting across objective points against it because I do not think it's a good idea Pretty much this. The idea is bad and op should feel bad. T1 < faction < specialized T2. That's the design line. T2 ammo should be further specialized to fix it.
Paikis Vapour Holdings 851	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:13:00 - [28] - Quote Stetson Eagle wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: where have I made it personal? I've just been putting across objective points against it because I do not think it's a good idea Pretty much this. The idea is bad and op should feel bad. T1 < faction < specialized T2. That's the design line. T2 ammo should be further specialized to fix it. You should probably get onto CCP to start nerfing every faction mod in the game that isn't a weapon then, because they're all better than T2.
Lunkwill Khashour Ministry of War Amarr Empire 141	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:58:00 - [29] - Quote Seeing as faction weapons are more expensive than T2, you wouldn't want to increase demand even more, do you?
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 449	Posted - 2013.06.10 16:27:00 - [30] - Quote Demand is mainly for the tags needed, and those have demand mainly for the other items that can be obtained with them. Demand for faction weapons is pretty darn low.

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