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Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
20
   |
Posted - 2013.06.10 16:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
It has been proposed before, and frankly I don't see anything wrong with it. Provided of course that you must train for the T2 ammo before using them.
Right now, faction turrets/launchers are mainly used as isk baubles. Nothing more.
Also, the more people using them (and this will happen with T2 ammo), the more delicious loot we will be able to get from fights. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
485
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 16:59:00 -
[32] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Demand is not an issue, more demand = more supply in this case.
Only if the tags gets grinded... |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
474
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ms. Stareine , please stop making Uni look bad. Are you even aware of the fact that T2 ammo require specialization skill as well as T2 guns and OP's proposal won't allow you to use T2 ammo if you can't use T2 guns.
OT: I support the notion that faction gans could use a look at them, applicability of T2 ammo is an option here. Definitely holds for officer guns - their rarity should at least be justified by their preformance.
Instead of "money vs time" formula that is obsoleted as character progresses you are getting pure "cost vs performance" which is always relevant. |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University
Ivy League
322
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:43:00 -
[34] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Ms. Stareine , please stop making Uni look bad. Are you even aware of the fact that T2 ammo require specialization skill as well as T2 guns and OP's proposal won't allow you to use T2 ammo if you can't use T2 guns.
OT: I support the notion that faction gans could use a look at them, applicability of T2 ammo is an option here. Definitely holds for officer guns - their rarity should at least be justified by their preformance.
Instead of "money vs time" formula that is obsoleted as character progresses you are getting pure "cost vs performance" which is always relevant. Claiming that T2 should stay specialized doesn't live up to reality since they aren't really specialized in the first place, but quite on the contrary.
Mr Habalu,
I am well aware of what the OP is proposing and despite your attempts to "clarify" I still do not agree since I did not misunderstand in the first place.
You train tech 2 specialisations and you gain access to tech 2 modules which have advantages and disadvantages compared to faction/officer modules.
In this particular case we are talking about weapon systems. Faction weapons already offer many advantages such as the training time I already mentioned and also some other things people have pointed out:
fitting cost
cap use for turrets that use cap
optimal range in some cases
raw damage in the case of launchers
If you then add the capability to use tech 2 ammo just because you have trained for it, it turns this game into: whoever is richest AND has the most SP wins.
Tech 2 provides a gold standard in fitting and puts a performance ceiling on most hulls so it can standardise efficiency for ALL players to fight on roughly even terms.
You add tech 2 ammunition capability to faction/officer guns, they will become outright superior instead of now when they are situationally superior.
EVE is about choice, not an endgame. Go play some other theme park mmo if you really need to have the satisfaction of wearing the best gear possible, I did that once. It got boring very quickly.
Also I do not speak for the Uni and the Uni does not control what I say. All these morons making comments about my corp when they disagree with something I post better come up with something fresh to criticise because the "LOL EVE UNI KNOW UR POSTING???" crap is getting old. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
851
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 19:53:00 -
[35] - Quote
Your argument against is moot. People pay many times more for a small increase in performance. Same story with skills, you train 80% of the benefit in 20% of the time it takes to get that final level. EVE is about diminishing returns, but you still get those returns... unless you're a gun.
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Skill required: Hull Upgrades V
Resistance Bonus: +20% (+25% w/ all Vs)
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Skill Required: Hull Upgrades III
Resistance Bonus: +22.5% (+28.125% w/ all Vs)
The faction module is both better (much better if you can maths) AND requires almost no training time. No matter how much time you spend training, the T2 module is NEVER better than the faction. Incidentally, the faction module is also easier to fit. This pattern is mirrored on every module in the game. Faction is better than T2... except when talking about guns.
Why not get rid of the exception? |
Leper ofBacon
HELP GRANDMA SMASH HER LEGS IN
21
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 21:15:00 -
[36] - Quote
If they came down in price by a lot it might be useful to discuss relative merits. They are too expensive to be reasonably used and faction bs where you spend billions to gain very small % gains are not really worth discussing.
Saying that reduced training time as a choice is an advantage really is terrible. You're going to stick around at large weapons level 4 for the privilege of using guns that are x50-100 times more expensive to lose? |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
449
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 21:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote: Faction weapons already offer many advantages such as the training time I already mentioned and also some other things people have pointed out:
fitting cost
cap use for turrets that use cap
optimal range in some cases
raw damage in the case of launchers
Fitting cost - they use more PG than T1, the same PG as T2. CPU is rarely limiting in these cases, they are harder to fit than T1, and just as hard for all intents and purposes as T2
Cap use - can be significant, and the only reason I have faction tachs (that I rarely use, especially since the last change)
Optimal Range - only in the case of CN/DG rails, for all others except blasters, the optimal range is the same, and in blasters it is worse
Raw damage - for every weapon except CN/DG launchers, the raw damage is less.
CN/DG launchers need to be nerfed, the rest of the faction weapons need a buff |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University
Ivy League
322
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 21:36:00 -
[38] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Your argument against is moot. People pay many times more for a small increase in performance. Same story with skills, you train 80% of the benefit in 20% of the time it takes to get that final level. EVE is about diminishing returns, but you still get those returns... unless you're a gun.
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Skill required: Hull Upgrades V
Resistance Bonus: +20% (+25% w/ all Vs)
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Skill Required: Hull Upgrades III
Resistance Bonus: +22.5% (+28.125% w/ all Vs)
The faction module is both better (much better if you can maths) AND requires almost no training time. No matter how much time you spend training, the T2 module is NEVER better than the faction. Incidentally, the faction module is also easier to fit. This pattern is mirrored on every module in the game. Faction is better than T2... except when talking about guns.
Why not get rid of the exception?
I see your point, but I would rather they nerf faction modules like the case you put there instead of seeing faction guns buffed to be able to use t2 ammo. |
grrlet
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 21:54:00 -
[39] - Quote
# TROLL
To make it fair they should only allow the use of faction ammo in faction guns/launchers 
# END TROLL |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
475
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 08:02:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:I see your point, but I would rather they nerf faction modules like the case you put there instead of seeing faction guns buffed to be able to use t2 ammo.
Tbh some faction guns are pretty much equal (if not practically worse) to reasonably skilled T2 guns even before you look at their price, and sometimes even before you take T2 ammo into account. Nerf can very well will push them below meta4s. |
feihcsiM
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
251
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 10:06:00 -
[41] - Quote
Restrict the T2 guns to ONLY use T2 ammo. 
It follows T1 = general, T2 = specialised, provides a genuine reason to consider T1 over T2 when fitting your ship and gives the faction guns a useful role.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
293
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 10:50:00 -
[42] - Quote
In my opinion two changes should be applied to faction guns:
a) Reduce their costs via LP store significantly, taking LP + ISK + Tags + whatever needed to get it into account a faction gun should not cost more then 2 to 3 times of a T2 gun of the same type.
b) Faction guns should get buffed their optimal and falloff by adding 30%.
This would result in something which is worth to buy while it still has slightly less performance DPS than T2 guns which is on the other hand compensated by more range if compared to T2 guns with T1 ammo or less range but better tracking than T2 guns with T2 long range ammo. |
John Ratcliffe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
172
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 10:58:00 -
[43] - Quote
If you have spent the time training to be able to use T2 ammo, then you should be able to use it in the appropriate Faction weapon if you wish. It is utterly stupid that you can't.
Plus +ša change, plus c'est la m+Žme chose |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1186
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 11:03:00 -
[44] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Falin Whalen wrote:Paikis wrote:You spend a lot of ISK for faction/officer guns why shouldn't they be slightly better than T2? Ah, here we have the "if it costs more it should be better" argument. Well no, it shouldn't, sorry, sometimes paying more really doesn't get you better stuff, just more expensive stuff.. Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? No, no. You're right. Here let me pay 200x the amount for something that is patently worse... said no one ever.
except all apple users.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
John Ratcliffe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
173
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 11:25:00 -
[45] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:except all apple users.
Can open. Worms everywhere!
Plus +ša change, plus c'est la m+Žme chose |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University
Ivy League
324
|
Posted - 2013.06.11 11:35:00 -
[46] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:I see your point, but I would rather they nerf faction modules like the case you put there instead of seeing faction guns buffed to be able to use t2 ammo. Tbh some faction guns are pretty much equal (if not practically worse) to reasonably skilled T2 guns even before you look at their price, and sometimes even before you take T2 ammo into account. Nerf can very well will push them below meta4s.
i dont mean guns, all other faction modules
deadspace should remain superior but there arent any deadspace guns afaik. |
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