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Removing Covert-ops pilots from local

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Mr Floppyknickers	Posted - 2005.11.11 03:47:00 - [1] I believe covert ops pilots should not appear in local, whilst cloaked. When they speak in local with a cloak active a grainy static ridden image should appear with a partial jumbling of the name and that image should remain in the channel until the pilot has said nothing for 5 minutes or left the system. As it is, being cloaked just keeps you alive, it doesn't really afford much stealth because everyone know's you're there. As such, covert intel gathering or attack is hardly such as you're plainly visible as being in the system. Now granted, when uncloaked they should appear in local, just not when cloaked. A cloaked ship should be able to skulk about with no one aware, that's the whole point. A cloaked ship should be able to enter a sysyem, cloak and gain intel on the target or attack without the target realizing they're there until they choose to reveal themselves. Now, one may argue that people don't know a person is in a cloaked ship which is fair enough. But also fair is people are know for the ships they fly, and once it becomes common knowledge in an area that so and so flies a covert ship then it really doesn't matter. Besides, if they didn't appear in local, there would be no need to worry because once it did become know it wouldn't be a liability until the person decloaks. Anyway, just my opinion, what do the rest of you think? Good idea or horribly awful idea? If my logic is flawed, please reveal it to me, so I can reconsider the postion or find a better way to defend it.
Razner Cerizo	Posted - 2005.11.11 04:05:00 - [2] Signed _____________ VHI - Yes, we are belt pirates. No, we wont make stuff for you :(
vecdran	Posted - 2005.11.11 04:11:00 - [3] I support this idea.
Ecnav	Posted - 2005.11.11 04:27:00 - [4] Edited by: Ecnav on 11/11/2005 04:28:06 This would be totally perfect, just that the whole disapear in local thing should only be done with a Covert Ops Cloak. No other cloak should have this ability.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.11.11 04:30:00 - [5] I'd rather dump local entirely. ~Captain Cutie, HFS Event Horizon Biomass fears me. Sovereignty 2.0
Gouglash	Posted - 2005.11.11 04:37:00 - [6] Edited by: Gouglash on 11/11/2005 04:38:28 People should appear in local in empire, and systems in which you have either sovereignty, or some sort of POS module. I think this would solve most problems. (And not just for cloakers.... for everyone.) It was like this in the test versions of Exodus, but they did away with it before it came to Tranquility. Edit: Actually, it was like that in every system in beta Exodus, including empire. Keep local in empire, or else it is just too quiet, kills the sense of empire being populated...
Herko Kerghans	Posted - 2005.11.11 05:29:00 - [7] Originally by: Mr Floppyknickers I believe covert ops pilots should not appear in local, whilst cloaked. /me drops to his knees, begging Please, O Devs, please... Please! - Something's brewing - Coming before next full moon
Mr Floppyknickers	Posted - 2005.11.11 05:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Ecnav Edited by: Ecnav on 11/11/2005 04:28:06 This would be totally perfect, just that the whole disapear in local thing should only be done with a Covert Ops Cloak. No other cloak should have this ability. That would be a start, but i think all covert ops class ships (e.g. scouts and bombers) should not appear in local with a cloak on. These ships are designed for stealth. No emissions, passive scans, and the like. And thus when cloaked there should be no tell tale sign of the ships presence in the system. Now one might say this makes bombers too powerful, however; under current mechanics they cannot warp while cloaked so will appear intermittedly while moving about the system. Of course, I think that should be changed as well, but this is a better start than demanding everything at once. And admittedly the Covert Ops class would need to be revamped if such a changed occured to give some new meaning to the scout ships of the class that has tangible value or no one would fly them due to thier lackluster combat abilities. Now having said that, any non covert ops class ship should still appear in local even with a cloak operating as they are not designed for stealth and thier cloaking device is a second thought defensive measure, not something thier ship was designed around. So for the purposes of game mechanics the ship would not be set to mask a comm beacon / transponder, would still give out detectable amounts of EM radiation, ambient noise, and so on.
Kalik Montclair	Posted - 2005.11.11 06:25:00 - [9] What about if no one shows in local, but, there was a new mod to scan the system? Skills would detemine range of scan, Cloaked ships would not show up. {good time to cloak probes here}
Maric	Posted - 2005.11.11 07:00:00 - [10] Originally by: Ecnav Edited by: Ecnav on 11/11/2005 04:28:06 This would be totally perfect, just that the whole disapear in local thing should only be done with a Covert Ops Cloak. No other cloak should have this ability. I disagree. IF this ever implement, all cloacked ships should disapear from local, there are no reason to make diference. Cloak is cloak.
Mr Floppyknickers	Posted - 2005.11.11 07:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Kalik Montclair What about if no one shows in local, but, there was a new mod to scan the system? Skills would detemine range of scan, Cloaked ships would not show up. {good time to cloak probes here} Because it is doubtful anyone is going to gimp their setup with such a mod. Additionally, local does act as an early warning system, RP wise, I equate it to your ships sensors detecting another ship in the system. Local wouldn't be needed if the map function was more accurate, allowing people to see an attack coming. Whereas the approaching blob gets a nice bright beacon of the target to make a beeline for. But under the current conditions local is the only breif warning anyone gets in low sec or otherwise. Taking that away just makes it that much easier to ambush people with little risk involved. Also, what point is there then for a Covert ops vessel other than a warp to point, which really wouldn't be needed either as you would simply enter a system, scan down the target and jump in. Removing local removes the need for cloaking devices beyond a ship trying to evade an attacker or pursuit. Granted such an action might lead to something unexpected like bombers firing while cloaked (doubtful) but until an effective map that updates constantly and reliably is instituted that can be veiwed in the main game window, local is a needed thing.
Grimwalius d'Antan	Posted - 2005.11.11 07:26:00 - [12] Originally by: Mr Floppyknickers Taking that away just makes it that much easier to ambush people with little risk involved. This is exactly what the game needs, because really, the only people you can jump are newbies and the foolish people that has been too long in hi sec to understand that not everyone are friendly miners in this game. Local is not just an early warning, it is a freaking bleeping red light telling you to safespot or instadock. The only place you can surprize someone is when they are coming through the gate. In every other situation, local gives you the ability to put yourself in a safespot as you can instantly see people entering system. The result of this is that all kinds of killing narrows down to gatecamping and pirating inexperienced targets in belts.
Mr Floppyknickers	Posted - 2005.11.11 08:19:00 - [13] Edited by: Mr Floppyknickers on 11/11/2005 08:20:35 Originally by: Grimwalius d'Antan Originally by: Mr Floppyknickers Taking that away just makes it that much easier to ambush people with little risk involved. This is exactly what the game needs, because really, the only people you can jump are newbies and the foolish people that has been too long in hi sec to understand that not everyone are friendly miners in this game. Local is not just an early warning, it is a freaking bleeping red light telling you to safespot or instadock. The only place you can surprize someone is when they are coming through the gate. In every other situation, local gives you the ability to put yourself in a safespot as you can instantly see people entering system. The result of this is that all kinds of killing narrows down to gatecamping and pirating inexperienced targets in belts. Perhaps in some cases, but not everything in eve revolves around pirate activities. And in this point you seem to be refering to solo pirating. One covert ops ship and you're problem is solved. The same can be said of scan probes. The list goes on. The thing to remember to is that these people are not placed in the game for them to be someones prey, they have to have fun too or they won't bother showing up anymore. Should there be risk in the wilds of space, yes very much so, and that risk currently exists in great numbers. To give them zero ability to evade or protect themselves just so they can be easier fodder.... meh. I'm not buying that. You should have to work to hunt them just like they have to work to avoid dying. If it was easy as you put for them to escape, no one would pirate, the miners wouldn't form corps and alliances that fight to control systems and regions from attackers and etc.. etc.. Now, i'm not anti-pirate. I'm not beyond some yarr myself. It's just that this is not a thread about everyone's veiws on local and how it affects them regarding thier pocket issue. It's a thread about making stealth ships with a cloak active not appear in the channel as they are afterall stealth ships. This aids in everything from exploration, pirating, fleet combat, pos sureveying, etc. It's not a issue centered on one aspect of gameplay beyond the specific class the discussion revolves around. If you want to discuss the removal of local, start a thread mate. Personally I'm not for or against it really as long as it doesn't leave a galaxy full of easy pickins. You would think that it would make pirating harder as you'd have to scan each system you pass through to find prey, which slows you down. Then again, in terms of pirating, the map is adequate since we get a nice big glowy spot to head to whereas they get nothing. The only result of the change you advocate is an even worse proliferation of warp core stabs. Which I think we can all agree would be less than desireable.
lythos miralbar	Posted - 2005.11.11 09:33:00 - [14] Edited by: lythos miralbar on 11/11/2005 09:35:22 previously i was against this idea, but you know what.. go for it, sounds cool... as long as.. There then has to be some way of countering covert opps. Id sugest a special module that could be fitted to a certain ship, possibly a destroyer designed to uncloak coverts. It should either be a "burst" weapon that sends out an omnidirectional pulse, probably with a 30km max range with the chance to uncloak decreasing the further out it gets (100% at 0KM, 0% AT 30KM). Either that or a longer ranged version, probably firing out in a cone shape out to almost 100km. Probably with a radius of 20km at the end. Again the chance to uncloak falls to 0% the further out it goes.
Randuin MaraL	Posted - 2005.11.11 09:36:00 - [15] Removing Covert-ops pilots from local - Signed - but once they talk they should become visible Never be in the company of anyone with whom you would not want to die. MEDUSA veteran, Khumaak Award winner, the man in an ogre space suit
LWMaverick	Posted - 2005.11.11 09:52:00 - [16] Originally by: lythos miralbar Edited by: lythos miralbar on 11/11/2005 09:35:22 previously i was against this idea, but you know what.. go for it, sounds cool... as long as.. There then has to be some way of countering covert opps. Id sugest a special module that could be fitted to a certain ship, possibly a destroyer designed to uncloak coverts. It should either be a "burst" weapon that sends out an omnidirectional pulse, probably with a 30km max range with the chance to uncloak decreasing the further out it gets (100% at 0KM, 0% AT 30KM). Either that or a longer ranged version, probably firing out in a cone shape out to almost 100km. Probably with a radius of 20km at the end. Again the chance to uncloak falls to 0% the further out it goes. Check this -> http://evegames.hostingbig.com/eve/data/Ship@~32;Equipment/Electronic@~32;Warfare/Anti@~32;Cloaking@~32;Pulses/Cloak@~32;Destabilization@~32;Pulse@~32;I.xml and no the link thing dosent work.. so you have to copy the link location and drop it in your browser yourself :S With great power, comes great responsibility.
Darius Shakor	Posted - 2005.11.11 12:35:00 - [17] I would like to see this too. Any ship that has a cloak on it should do this when used. And I agree that if they talk in local obviously they should be visiable for at least a 5 minute period, if not indeffinately until they move out of the system. ------ Shakor Clan Information Portal Pain is meant to be felt. It is meant to exist.
Trooper B99	Posted - 2005.11.11 12:39:00 - [18] mmmmm . . . . agreeably nice idea. Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
Caroline 888	Posted - 2005.11.11 12:40:00 - [19] I support this with one small addition - any cloaked ships should not appear in local - heres my reasoning... A corp declared war on us, so we think great ! some free pvp action, except for one small thing, all they do is run and hide in stations every time they see us in local !! c'mon ccp we need ways of dealing with these care bears Im Phoenix's wife and I do all the talking so keep it polite !
Olivin	Posted - 2005.11.11 12:47:00 - [20] I believe covert ops pilots should not appear in local, whilst cloaked Signed! Olivin
Kanuo Ashkeron	Posted - 2005.11.11 12:52:00 - [21] Wouldn¦t it the best solution to change to mode of local from immediate to the other one (is it Delayed mode?)? And maybe it could be implemented within seconds. Kanuo
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2005.11.11 12:54:00 - [22] Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 11/11/2005 12:55:27 As I see it, current justification for local is that the gate, which provide means for the ship to enter the system, knows everything about ship it allows in because the ship is required to cooperate in order the gate to propel it into the system of destination. Because in this respect covert ops ships are not any different from any other ship that travel using jump gates, there is no reason to not display them in local.
BuRnEr	Posted - 2005.11.11 12:59:00 - [23] Remove local in 0.0, it¦s a freaking chat channel not a tactical enemy scanner. let it stay the same in empire, we have a game were 90% will start crying if thay loose a t1 frig, that way ccp whont loose as many players.
Agent2 Holtze	Posted - 2005.11.11 13:23:00 - [24] This is a though one, i like the idea, but it would leave nOObs in big trouble, because pirates, empire wars and other operations would leave the targets totally noneaware of the comming trouble. Covertop is a great thing, but if it couldn't be seen in local it would be way overpowered. If covertops shouldn't be seen in local, then we shouldn't be able to warp to them, this would balance it! Cheers! ~ Quovis Per Adua ~
DARTHxFREE	Posted - 2005.11.11 13:23:00 - [25] i read as far as the title..... ....sigh.. SIGNED!!! >:-E3
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.11 13:40:00 - [26] no-one should be in local unless they talk imo, but at least cloaked people not showing up would be a start.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.11.11 13:46:00 - [27] Yes, we KNOW you hate PvP Tiny Carlos, allready. (PvP is allready badly down because the map's useless, ffs) Covert Ops only. And local COUNT should remain constant, so people who are alert can realise a covert's in local. And you should't be able to talk in local while covert cloaked. Tradeoff. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
MrJordanIOI	Posted - 2005.11.11 14:08:00 - [28] SIGNED big time !
TheJay	Posted - 2005.11.11 14:17:00 - [29] puts his x onto the list Can never hide properly if they see you in local
HankMurphy	Posted - 2005.11.11 14:28:00 - [30] I ENTIRELY AGREE! well, with most of it... 1)Local should be everywhere, yeah even 0.0. Sure we could learn to adapt if they took local away, but we dont need to totally get rid of it, not even in 0.0. 2) I LOVE the scrambled name and fuzzy picture idea. Hows this sound? Pilots in Covert OPs do not appear in local at all, what-so-ever. Pilots in other ships with cloaks on them will appear in local just like everyone else, except the moment the cloak (then the whole jumbled pic and name come into picture). This means said cloak pilot (not in a covert ops) has a good chance of getting into the system without being ID'd, lest there be ppl at the gate he comes through on (leaving covert ops gang members still most valuable for scouting).

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