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Ly'sol	Posted - 2005.11.13 16:28:00 - [61] I adore the titles such as "The DoOM of EVE" or "THE DEaTH of EVE" or "EVE WilL DiE" heheh...its ok..just because there isnt a ship out there that isnt an "I win" button doesnt mean anything. This is a team oriented game. If you dont want to sacrifice the firepower of your Battleship. Here is an even better RL example....Have a few buddies take on the anti frig role and act as an escort
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.11.13 16:32:00 - [62] Originally by: Alex Kynes Originally by: Hoap Edited by: Hoap on 13/11/2005 08:15:51 ...thats like saying a guy in a 15' speed boat could make the USS NIMITZ turn tail and run... Would this ship ever travel without escort of smaller ships in times of war? I don't know, but I can bet my liver that it wouldn't. Does this USS NIMITZ only mount uber high caliber guns or does it mount some smaller guns, AA guns and missiles to defend agains different types of threats? I don't know, but, again, I can get my liver it does. If the OP and others don't see the point of my post, well, it's no wonder you cry when a few friggies blow up your prized battleships. -AK a fast google reveals; NIMITZ CLASS (CVN-68) Displacement: 91,487 tons full load (CVN-71, 96,358) Length: 1,040 feet Beam: 134 feet Flight Deck Width: 252 feet Speed: 30-plus knots Power Plant: Two nuclear reactors, four geared steam turbines, four shafts Aircraft: 85 Armament: Sea Sparrow missiles, Phalanx close-in weapons systems-three on Nimitz and Eisenhower, four on Vinson, four to be installed on later ships of class Complement: 3,200 ship's company; 2,480 in air wing Builder: Newport News Shipbuilding Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.11.13 16:43:00 - [63] Originally by: Qingu Battleship hi-slots are not limited to fitting large turrets. Want a gun to shoot frigates? Fit one. The options are there, use them. That would been fine if the bonus's did apply for the gun types and not a gun class. So a cruiser could fit both medium and small guns and the ship's bonus would apply to all guns, not just the medium ones. Same with a battleship, the bonus's should apply to both small, medium and the large guns, or launchers. Then it would make more sense to add a smaller gun as a point system, however, I would rather see it possible to fit multiple small guns in a single high slot on a bs. Why? Because the gun platform that can house a large gun/launcher should easy fit double medium and multiple small ones. Also, smaller vessels should have a harder time penetrate larger ships shields and armor. imho they should have a penality to damage they can make. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.11.13 16:52:00 - [64] Multiple players > Solo player. Much better system than level 60 > 10 x level 30. At the risk of repeating myself. EVE is not WoW or EQ or anyother level based grind game. More expensive ships do not equate to being 20 levels higher, you a pay a premium for having better survivability, and more fitting options. THEY ARE NOT A GIVEN RIGHT TO AUTOMATICALLY WIN AGAINST SMALLER SHIPS. I don't like using block capitals, buut frankly sometimes it seems like the only option.
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.11.13 16:54:00 - [65] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico a fast google reveals; NIMITZ CLASS (CVN-68) Displacement: 91,487 tons full load (CVN-71, 96,358) Length: 1,040 feet Beam: 134 feet Flight Deck Width: 252 feet Speed: 30-plus knots Power Plant: Two nuclear reactors, four geared steam turbines, four shafts Aircraft: 85 Armament: Sea Sparrow missiles, Phalanx close-in weapons systems-three on Nimitz and Eisenhower, four on Vinson, four to be installed on later ships of class Complement: 3,200 ship's company; 2,480 in air wing Builder: Newport News Shipbuilding Note that of course this is a CARRIER and not a battleship. That aside, notice that there are close-range weapons designed specfically to take out smaller fast-moving targets such as missiles. Ever seen those Phalanx guns in action? WOW. I see the OP's point, but if he'd been around long enough he'd remember a time when more and more people had battleships, and smaller classes of ships were almost completely useless against them. Then came the big change. And suddenly, frigate and cruiser pilots were useful again in fleet operations. From what I remember, the vast majority of players felt this was a GREAT idea. Combat became more interesting for everybody. Will it be EVE's downfall? Well, the biggest change that brought this about came what, well over a year ago? Yeah, the game's really suffered since then. :/ winterblink warp drive active.http://winterblink.com/wda nature vraie.http://winterblink.com/env
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.11.13 16:57:00 - [66] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Also, smaller vessels should have a harder time penetrate larger ships shields and armor. imho they should have a penality to damage they can make. Doesn't the fact that smaller ships with smaller guns automatically mean they do smaller damage? Or am I missing something here. winterblink warp drive active.http://winterblink.com/wda nature vraie.http://winterblink.com/env
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.11.13 17:07:00 - [67] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Also, smaller vessels should have a harder time penetrate larger ships shields and armor. imho they should have a penality to damage they can make. Doesn't the fact that smaller ships with smaller guns automatically mean they do smaller damage? Or am I missing something here. Take a frig with a 150mm gun (or similar), it should work good vs another frig or ship of similar size. The penetration the gun is capable of doing. but vs a larger ship it should have much harder time penetrate and make damage. Unless you insist it make sense that the strenght/thickness? of armor and shields are equal for a frig and a bs, or all ships. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.11.13 17:09:00 - [68] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Take a frig with a 150mm gun (or similar), it should work good vs another frig or ship of similar size. The penetration the gun is capable of doing. but vs a larger ship it should have much harder time penetrate and make damage. Unless you insist it make sense that the strenght/thickness? of armor and shields are equal for a frig and a bs, or all ships. They're NOT equal though. If I had a gun that did 50 points of damage consistently, my effectiveness varies depending on the ship I'm attacking. Assuming the following theoretical numbers for shield strenghts of a few ships of varying classes: Frigate: 250 Cruiser: 750 Battleship: 3000 It will take me a hell of a lot more shooting to take the shields down on the battleship than the frigate. winterblink warp drive active.http://winterblink.com/wda nature vraie.http://winterblink.com/env
Bahr Cudas	Posted - 2005.11.13 17:15:00 - [69] What's the best ship to use when exploring 0.0 space then? I always assumed that if I flew a battleship I'd be safer -- either in fighting back or surviving long enough to escape. Also, what does "pwn" mean?
Megadon	Posted - 2005.11.13 17:29:00 - [70] Originally by: Alex Kynes Edited by: Alex Kynes on 13/11/2005 10:25:19 Originally by: Nyphur I've always wondered why dual 150mm railguns ahve the sensor resolution of a 250mm railgun. I know it's based on size class but shoudln't it be able to hit frigates just as well as a 150mm? And perhaps we could get a quad 150mm for battleships? Something that would absolutely ting off a cruiser or battleship but wreck a frigate. The problem in Eve is that small ships can hit the big ones fine for good damage and the big ships can't touch the small ones or hit them for very low damage. Small guns should not be tearing through battleships :/. And to this I agree! Weapons like dual 150mm railguns and alike should have a better resolution then other cruiser weapons if they are indeed intended to help agains frigates. I don't agree with much else in this thread, but I actually agree with this point too... What is the point of the dual 150's?
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.11.13 17:30:00 - [71] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Take a frig with a 150mm gun (or similar), it should work good vs another frig or ship of similar size. The penetration the gun is capable of doing. but vs a larger ship it should have much harder time penetrate and make damage. Unless you insist it make sense that the strenght/thickness? of armor and shields are equal for a frig and a bs, or all ships. They're NOT equal though. If I had a gun that did 50 points of damage consistently, my effectiveness varies depending on the ship I'm attacking. Assuming the following theoretical numbers for shield strenghts of a few ships of varying classes: Frigate: 250 Cruiser: 750 Battleship: 3000 It will take me a hell of a lot more shooting to take the shields down on the battleship than the frigate. Yes, but you would still do the same amount of damage vs a large ship as you would vs a small or medium one. Would be like fire with an air gun on a plate of steel. Would it do much damage? Larger guns got penality towards track and hit smaller vessels, it would make sense than smaller guns and vessles had harder time penetreate and do damage towards larger vessels. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Jane Vladmir	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:19:00 - [72] If they're gonna make battleships uber again they'll have to remove the insurance.
Moghydin	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:24:00 - [73] Originally by: Bahr Cudas What's the best ship to use when exploring 0.0 space then? I always assumed that if I flew a battleship I'd be safer -- either in fighting back or surviving long enough to escape. Also, what does "pwn" mean? Using bs for exploring 0.0 is the worst choice possible. Nearly same as exploring it in Iteron V or a Coveter
Neon Genesis	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:30:00 - [74] Well i'm assuming you know what it was like before BS lost the ability to hit anything regardless of sig and other factors? I'll tell you, no-one ever used anything but a BS for combat because it was suicide. This post has no value lol. There, i just contributed nothing to your thread
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:34:00 - [75] The point of Dual 150mm? Who the **** knows, why even fitt it? A 150mm will do more damage and hit more often. CCP, please remove the Dual 150mm I would be happy if CCP removed the signature of Weapons. I mean, why does my Large Gun have to hit perfectly in the middle of the circle (as seen in the tracking animation made by ccp) when the Large gun projectil/beam is as large as the whole circle? Everything would be better if the SIGNATURE OF WEAPONS WERE REMOVED! Hint Hint "We brake for nobody"
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:49:00 - [76] Originally by: hoaps surgery Originally by: Ombey Edited by: Ombey on 13/11/2005 08:18:45 Using your own analogy, do you think the Nimitz's deck guns could hit a fast moving speedboat which is close to it? infact the nimitz wich is a carrier because i couldnt think of the name of a battleship CAN shoot down things moving as fast as missiles Has it occured to you that you cannot think of the names of any current RL battleships because they are obsolete? Why are they obsolete? Because they are easily destroyed by smaller, cheaper ships and planes. Sound familiar? Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori
Filine	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:00:00 - [77] better review is, the USS Missouri trying to track and hit the 15' speedboat with its 16in guns when the boat is with in 100 meters. now the USN of course has the Phalanx to counter fast movers. however in Scifi a small fast mover has allways been a good counter to a big hulking battleship, look at starwars the rebel fighters were killed by TIEs not the guns of a star destroyer or Deathstar. for game balance and im still new but i have tons of MMO experience. its simply that they dont want the big battleships and larger to be massive Solo-O-Matics they want them to have frigate and fighter escorts. think of it like startrek, they dont deploy multiple Galaxy or Soveriegn class to an engaugement, those big ones serve as heavy fire support and more importantly use their greater sensor abilities and command of the more experienced captain to lead the battle group as a whole.
Remedial	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:14:00 - [78] Is this a joke? You guys DO realize that you CAN fit a BS out to take 15+ frigs out, right? Let's start with a Mega. 2x Named Heavy Nos 2x Large Named Smartbombs 4x 150mm rail IIs 1x Sensor Booster II 1x Heavy cap injector 2x 90% webs 5x Named 1600mm Plates 1x Energized Adaptive Nano II 1x Large Rep II 30 Hammerhead IIs Exactly how many T1 frigs would you have to throw at that before it died? Even if it was jammed or dampened, it would take minutes and minutes to kill it with 50 frigates as they'd have to refit to stay out of Smartbomb range plus deal with 8-10 hammerhead IIs killing a frigate every 10 seconds. CCP provides you the tools to deal with any situation, but you have to provide the intelligence and willingness to use those tools.
Bazman	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:26:00 - [79] Originally by: Remedial Is this a joke? You guys DO realize that you CAN fit a BS out to take 15+ frigs out, right? Let's start with a Mega. 2x Named Heavy Nos 2x Large Named Smartbombs 4x 150mm rail IIs 1x Sensor Booster II 1x Heavy cap injector 2x 90% webs 5x Named 1600mm Plates 1x Energized Adaptive Nano II 1x Large Rep II 30 Hammerhead IIs Exactly how many T1 frigs would you have to throw at that before it died? Even if it was jammed or dampened, it would take minutes and minutes to kill it with 50 frigates as they'd have to refit to stay out of Smartbomb range plus deal with 8-10 hammerhead IIs killing a frigate every 10 seconds. CCP provides you the tools to deal with any situation, but you have to provide the intelligence and willingness to use those tools. Drones are virtually useless after the battleship has been dampened/jammed. The battleship needs to put its webs on the target to let the drones kill it. I said it before earlier, Its not the frigs, its the EWAR
Claude Leon	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:37:00 - [80] Originally by: F'nog There was a time when BSes were unstoppable unless other BSes were used against them. This was pretty boring and I'm glad things have changed, because unless you had a BS you couldn't really PvP. It's much better now that there's variety. And since I too am a dog person, you will NEVER see a capital ship, either a BS (not that anyone uses them anymore, hmmm wonder why) or a carrier alone in the sea. They are ALWAYS surrounded by a large fleet of support/defense craft like frigates, cruisers and subs, because if they were left alone they would be super easy to sink. One tiny sub, equal to about a frig, could do it with a couple of torps or cruise missiles. You don't see a problem with that? I was thinking about this same issue last night. How in the hell can a frig web and hold down a battleship and larger ship? Frigates should be only be able to lock down cruiser and below classes.
Fooball	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:47:00 - [81] Originally by: Hoap THEY ARE BATTLESHIPS!!!!!!!!! A battleship is not the same as Nimitz. That will come with the next versions, the carriers. A battleship is more like one of those real life battleships. There are still a few out there. Frigate is more like an Aegis battle system. A frigate. And yeah, 15 Aegis vs 1 battleship, I put my money on the Aegis.
Blackest Sheep	Posted - 2005.11.13 20:00:00 - [82] In EvE it is player time > ISK and that is how it should be. 10, 15 and more players should be able to bring almost anyone flying alone down. MMORPG should be about group play. Want to be safe from 15 frigs? Bring your own 14 friends. I agree that there are some quirks with the current system that could be straightened. EW being powerful in frig gangs because you can field so much of it is one. With a decent sized gang with a proper setup it is quite easy to render any one opponent useless and unable to kill even one frig. In the end, it comes down to numbers which is good as it promotes teamplay. Coordinate the team and it gets even better and becomes able to take on larger, more unorganized gangs.
dantes inferno	Posted - 2005.11.13 20:23:00 - [83] BS weapons are fine as they are. there is no way a large gun should hit a small target close up, missiles are fine (or hopefuly will be after the upcoming changes). Also NOS as it is now is fine (a short while back the usual "OMG nerf the NOS" cries were going around) the nos as it is now actualy gives the bs a chance at surviving. SMB are usless really as i would never get <5KM to a BS if i could help it in a frig. Though you could fit smaller guns on the BS to kill frigs...if you run into another BS you are dead (and i dont know about you lot i dont know whar ships my enemies are flying when i undock)so that option is unpractical. Drones though the changes look good will now be easier for frigs to kill as there are less targets. so the options of a BS are becoming limited...but as many have said you should not be in a BS without an escort. But as long as NOS are kept as they are so a BS has some chance at surviving im happy with it as is. _____ http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/sf/type/2/dantesinferno80.png Only one image allowed in the signature field. Mail us if you have questions -Garik
Ryea Eripmav	Posted - 2005.11.13 20:42:00 - [84] Originally by: Tiuwaz nobody likes kittens? I do. ----------------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) The Bunny strikes again, on his way to world domination. "...The bunny, the bunny Oh! I love the bunny..."
Aaronus	Posted - 2005.11.13 21:17:00 - [85] To take away the ability for people to band together and hop into frigs and take down a much larger foe would be unbalancing to me. There always should be the ability to turn odds with numbers than the size of the ship. Also, offers players who have not amassed wealth to be able to throw away ships left and right the ability to get into pvp, and that is always a good thing. Especially with this game. Besides, frigates are way more fun to fly than battleships. This game is slow enough as it is. Frig fighting is a blast. http://www.eve-files.com/media/signatures/nostromo%20foundry.gif
Longasc	Posted - 2005.11.13 22:24:00 - [86] Edited by: Longasc on 13/11/2005 22:25:23 Assault Frigates for the win. Someone said something very true: - make specific anti-Battleship weapons for Frigates - give Battleship armor some extra against small guns nobody said to make them solo pwnmobiles as Oveur said. But nobody also said that Battleships should be unable to hit a single Assault Frigate either. :> We already have very artifical and strange concepts like sig radius, especially regarding missile damage. While it works, its not really convincing either. The same applies to Battleships hitting no Cruiser at 20km... For those saying Battleships need an escort: We cannot have players have escorts, blobs are already killing nodes. :P
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.11.13 22:30:00 - [87] Just... LOL? To quote Oveur (sic): The battleship IS not and WILL NOT be a solo pwnmobile. Find some friends, or fly a frig. Originally by: Thomas Jefferson A society that will trade a little liberty for a little security will lose both and deserve neither.
Faiith	Posted - 2005.11.13 22:54:00 - [88] Originally by: Montague Zooma Oh, and "pwn" is gamer slang for "own". Typos often generate new words. Someone, somewhere, must have typed something like "I'm gonna pwn you, dude", hilarity ensued and it became part of the gaming lexicon. best explanation ive ever heard for that idiocy
Gareth Angel	Posted - 2005.11.13 23:05:00 - [89] The best thing about this thread is the explanation of where the slang-word 'pwn' comes from. If ONE frig can wtfpwn your BS, you should be ashamed of yourself and take a crash-course 'how to properly fit my BS'. If two frigs can take you with ease, see above. If three or more frigs pwn your BS, I would be a little less surprised, as it is, indeed, the 'teamwork' button that makes the difference here. And what is wrong with EW? 20 frigs can bring too much of it? Have your own 20 frigs then, and plz stop complaining. And to the RL comparisons: muhahahahahahahahahaha! "Why, oh why, didn't I take the BLUE pill???"
Claude Leon	Posted - 2005.11.13 23:11:00 - [90] Originally by: Gareth Angel The best thing about this thread is the explanation of where the slang-word 'pwn' comes from. If ONE frig can wtfpwn your BS, you should be ashamed of yourself and take a crash-course 'how to properly fit my BS'. If two frigs can take you with ease, see above. If three or more frigs pwn your BS, I would be a little less surprised, as it is, indeed, the 'teamwork' button that makes the difference here. And what is wrong with EW? 20 frigs can bring too much of it? Have your own 20 frigs then, and plz stop complaining. And to the RL comparisons: muhahahahahahahahahaha! How old are you?

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