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Lygos
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Posted - 2005.11.16 00:07:00 -
[1]
Universally on frigates, and quite frequently on several builds of heavier classes, the AB is a staple of ship fittings. I wouldn't be surprised if it is probably the most used mod or nearly so.
It's a success, everybody loves it, and it adds no mass or sig radius. And it gives that awesome go fast feel for a rather economical expenditure of cap.
So what's problem?
It's too necessary. Survival without it seems remote. Efficacy in applying one's merchandise also makes it important, though that won't be considered here.
Since ABs are more a mainstay of Frigates, then any changes need only be applied to them. I propose that the base speed of all frigates be boosted by 50%, with no other changes to any other tracking dynamics throughout the game.
Afterburners should have their output reduced commensurately to achieve the same speeds we see today. -33% for AB and MWD boost all around I think. If you don't wanna mess with cap use, it's actually ok to just leave consumption exactly as it is.
(Technically, this is just the same as giving an diminishing returns evasion bonus to frigs that isn't modulated by speed, but it makes a greater number of happy frig pilots without increasing the happiness quotient of current AB-using Frig pilots. It also doesn't give any reason for Cruiser or BS pilots to be ticked off.)
The net effect of this will be greater diversity of Frigates by giving them, as a class, more midslot options. It makes the heavy frigs more versatile as well as making the EW frigs more usable.
"Everything I love is combustible." |
Christopher Multsanti
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Posted - 2005.11.16 00:14:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Christopher Multsanti on 16/11/2005 00:14:46
 Originally by: Lygos
And it gives that awesome go fast feel.
Thats where I would have to disagree.
Start Wearing Purple!
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Arrgs
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Posted - 2005.11.16 00:25:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Edited by: Christopher Multsanti on 16/11/2005 00:14:46
Originally by: Lygos
And it gives that awesome go fast feel.
Thats where I would have to disagree.
I stopped reading there too.
Damage Industries is recruiting |
Berasus' Minion
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Posted - 2005.11.16 00:26:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Arrgs
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Edited by: Christopher Multsanti on 16/11/2005 00:14:46
Originally by: Lygos
And it gives that awesome go fast feel.
Thats where I would have to disagree.
I stopped reading there too.
I didn't, but i wish i had.
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Lygos
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Posted - 2005.11.16 00:27:00 -
[5]
What? Ya'll aren't looking forward to the release of the missing Amarr frig with no mid slots? 
"Everything I love is combustible." |
Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.11.16 00:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lygos
It's a success, everybody loves it, and it adds no mass or sig radius. And it gives that awesome go fast feel for a rather economical expenditure of cap.
Afterburners both add to mass and do not add too much to speed.
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Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.11.16 01:01:00 -
[7]
As someone who hates MWDs and loves ABs.
NO, now get back in your box.
~Captain Cutie, HFS Event Horizon
Biomass fears me.
Sovereignty 2.0 |
Nyabi
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Posted - 2005.11.16 01:05:00 -
[8]
None of my Caldari Cruisers setups have an AB on them, nor require it, I consider AB's a novelty more than anything else.
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Lygos
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Posted - 2005.11.16 01:10:00 -
[9]
My numbers may be imprecise, but the intent is to harm neither ABs nor MWDs. I never saw a need for a mass or agility or speed change.
The idea is simply to make Frigates not quite completely dependent upon having a mod to change the velocity variable.
Frigates will go the same speed as they do now when they add an AB or a MWD. They will simply go a bit faster when they don't have them.
At the worst, this is a fairly minor nerf to neutralizers vs. mwders, though it probably won't even affect AB users at all.
"Everything I love is combustible." |
Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.11.16 01:14:00 -
[10]
Why would people suddenly stop using them tho?
People will use whatever it takes and whatever they can afford to use to make themselves faster.
If someone used an AB before your changes, they would still use it after.
~Captain Cutie, HFS Event Horizon
Biomass fears me.
Sovereignty 2.0 |
Lygos
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Posted - 2005.11.16 01:17:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
Why would people suddenly stop using them tho?
People will use whatever it takes and whatever they can afford to use to make themselves faster.
If someone used an AB before your changes, they would still use it after.
Exactly.
"Everything I love is combustible." |
Kunming
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Posted - 2005.11.16 01:20:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Kunming on 16/11/2005 01:20:12
I think you need to reason why frigates should get a +33% to their base speed.
Why should heavy gun boats or EW frigs be faster (if it hasnt fitted a speed boost module)? I think its part of the game balance to have slow but powerful frigs compared to the faster ones with less weaponary.
Website
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Harry Voyager
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Posted - 2005.11.16 01:33:00 -
[13]
I think the OP is forgetting that frigates are, by their very nature, all about speed, hence, anything that enhances that speed, is going to be a required fitting on a frigate.
We've been around this before. Remember frigate MWDs?
Harry Voyager
Shoot, why else would you take a Frigate, if not for its speed?
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DrakeZakharov
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Posted - 2005.11.16 02:04:00 -
[14]
Cheapness of course :)
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Lygos
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Posted - 2005.11.16 02:05:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Lygos on 16/11/2005 02:05:45
Why should a frigate not seem moderately agile even without a tremendous speed mod?
Most other mods such as, dmg modifier, tracking modifier, sig reducer, tracking inhibitor or whatever only affect a variable by about 10-40%. They still perform somewhat adequately when not boosted or when inhibited. With AB we are talking about at least a 105% boost or significantly more.
Such an extreme change might make the module extremely necessary. With Frigs this always true. With cruisers and bs it is more optional. All class balancing calculations have been done with the Frig as having a velocity mod 100% of the time.
I'd like to see a minority niche of frig fittings arise that do not revolve around velocity mods, especially for NPCing fits. 90% of frig users will still want AB or MWD.
Current:
Imaginary Frig - 500m/s
IF + AB - 1200m/s (or something)
IF + MWD - 2500m/s
Proposed:
Imaginary Frig - 750m/s
IF + AB - 1200m/s
IF + MWD - 2500m/s
*Since it is a universal AB/MWD change, you may gain or lose a few m/s here and there, but since it is all percents, the absolute relationships will remain the same.
"Everything I love is combustible." |
Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.11.16 02:09:00 -
[16]
How about if fitting a speed altering mod also forced you to use lighter weapons?
The heavier armed ships would benefit from the base speed boost, but the ultimate speed freaks could still have their speed, at the cost of overall firepower.
~Captain Cutie, HFS Event Horizon
Biomass fears me.
Sovereignty 2.0 |
Furion35
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Posted - 2005.11.16 02:52:00 -
[17]
At Navigation IV, my merlin goes 498m/s wiht an ab. it doesnt give me a great feeling of moving fast, it makes me the same speed as a fast frig or a interceptor without speed mods.
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O'Sirius
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Posted - 2005.11.16 03:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Furion35
At Navigation IV, my merlin goes 498m/s wiht an ab. it doesnt give me a great feeling of moving fast, it makes me the same speed as a fast frig or a interceptor without speed mods.
Heh I'm only about 80 m/s behind you in my Prophecy. And my navigation skills are all at IV atm.
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Hoozin
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Posted - 2005.11.16 03:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
How about if fitting a speed altering mod also forced you to use lighter weapons?
The heavier armed ships would benefit from the base speed boost, but the ultimate speed freaks could still have their speed, at the cost of overall firepower.
ROFL - Thanks
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Harry Voyager
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Posted - 2005.11.16 03:55:00 -
[20]
Lygos, you still don't get it, a Slow Frigate is a Dead Frigate.
Frigates do not have 200dps tanks. They do not have 6k armour built in. They can't deal 300+ dps, from 100km out. All they have is their speed.
Asking why nearly all frigates have ABs is akin to asking why nearly all battleships have tanks. It is what they do.
There is simply no place in combat for a light-heavy. What is a slow Frigate going to do, that a Cruiser can't do infinitely better? Name one thing that a slow Frigate can do, that another ship class can't do better.
Stop trying to shoe-horn frigates into your unrealistic fantasies of how they are supposed to perform.
Harry Voyager
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.11.16 03:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
Why would people suddenly stop using them tho?
People will use whatever it takes and whatever they can afford to use to make themselves faster.
If someone used an AB before your changes, they would still use it after.
And hardly anyone used them (at least non-oversized or dual) before the changes as they were crap. Absolute toss. A waste of a mid slot. Micro warp drives have always been death magents for any frigate except Inties, but before you could fit oversized or AB's so it was okay.
No oversized/dual AB and no decent proper sized AB? That just means everyone who ins't a noob will have to fly a ship that doesn't insta-pop in combat, which non-speed rigged frigates do.
Who are you? One of ALTNAME's alts?
And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him |
Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.11.16 04:03:00 -
[22]
Originally by: theRaptor
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
Why would people suddenly stop using them tho?
People will use whatever it takes and whatever they can afford to use to make themselves faster.
If someone used an AB before your changes, they would still use it after.
And hardly anyone used them (at least non-oversized or dual) before the changes as they were crap. Absolute toss. A waste of a mid slot. Micro warp drives have always been death magents for any frigate except Inties, but before you could fit oversized or AB's so it was okay.
No oversized/dual AB and no decent proper sized AB? That just means everyone who ins't a noob will have to fly a ship that doesn't insta-pop in combat, which non-speed rigged frigates do.
Who are you? One of ALTNAME's alts?
I'm almost certain you misquoted.
~Captain Cutie, HFS Event Horizon
Biomass fears me.
Sovereignty 2.0 |
Harry Voyager
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Posted - 2005.11.16 04:11:00 -
[23]
Actually, for a long time it was MWDs that were the required fitting for frigates, because it used to be that Frigates were worried more about missiles than they were about turrets.
On a side note, if afterburners were nerfed, nearly every other ship class would be affected by it as well. I'm sure Huallers would love to have another 30% lopped off their speed, what with the insta-jump nerf and all.
Harry Voyager
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LWMaverick
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Posted - 2005.11.16 09:48:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Berasus' Minion
Originally by: Arrgs
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Edited by: Christopher Multsanti on 16/11/2005 00:14:46
Originally by: Lygos
And it gives that awesome go fast feel.
Thats where I would have to disagree.
I stopped reading there too.
I didn't, but i wish i had.
Amen
With great power, comes great responsibility. |
wierchas noobhunter
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Posted - 2005.11.16 10:53:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Edited by: Christopher Multsanti on 16/11/2005 00:14:46
Originally by: Lygos
And it gives that awesome go fast feel.
Thats where I would have to disagree.
first bantan pilot to another
-woot look on me uber 456 m/s
second
-damn nice u use ab?
first
-yeah
second
-damn u have good skills
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Grimwalius d'Antan
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Posted - 2005.11.16 11:27:00 -
[26]
Increasing speed on frigs would make turret tracking and explosion velocity unproportional. Explosion velocity is gimped enough already. If you try and compensate this by increasing tracking and exp. velocity, you're once again making cruisers only good for dying.
I think we better not touch anything...
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