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WeLoveYouLongTime
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Posted - 2005.11.17 22:26:00 -
[1]
Edited by: WeLoveYouLongTime on 17/11/2005 22:30:47
I may have saved the day and solved a lag issue..
please read:
Network Lag from Graphical Effects
Problem: Most people in fleet ops turn effects off. All this does is stop the client from interpreting the data sent to it which in turn saves our graphics card from drawing stuff it struggles with.
The fundamental fact remains that the data is still sent from the server to the client, the only difference is with effects off the client does not execute this data.
The effects data that is still sent is unnecessary data, its dead weight which need not even be sent. If you have 150 pvpers pushing hardners/scramblers/webbers, all this data has to be sent to all 150 players in real time of who's doing what to who, when they're switched on and off, and all over your network connections.
This adds to network and processing lag on the poor node. Essentially it is redundant packets of data on the node and out the pipe which in theory we could do without.
"My gosh Mr Alt you may be onto something, but how do we turn this into a lag reducing method?"
Solution:
The unnecessary data can be avoided, my solution would be this:
When a player selects to turn effects off (Ctrl+Alt+E), the event of this command is marked in the database profile of the player at the server end. When the server is sending out effects data e.g. during a fleet op, it can skip sending that specific type of data to everyone who has no effects marked on thier profiles.
So now, not only are you reducing graphics lag on the client end but also reducing network lag on the server end.
If 150 of the 200 in the grid are all NOT requesting effects data to be sent, you've upped your efficiency and reduced network load by 75% under my method.
This saves bandwidth, node load and processing time.
Please send me cake in the post if this discovery delights you Mr Devs. 
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Mr Bigglesworth
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Posted - 2005.11.17 22:28:00 -
[2]
Are you sure this is the case, Mr alt?
I mean, surely some of the effects are simply generated by the client, and just the client.
But what do i know, obviously not as much as you 
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.11.17 22:33:00 -
[3]
good points though CCP have already decided that the way to solve lag is a) nerf things drones - bookmarks. Its called optimisation at the expense of existing gameplay b) redo manufacturing and research (long needed anyway). The new changes will be adapted to and eventually altered to reflect ingame tactics but it will take some rebalancing - and adaptation.
And it will do those BM sellers out of business.
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WeLoveYouLongTime
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Posted - 2005.11.17 22:39:00 -
[4]
Edited by: WeLoveYouLongTime on 17/11/2005 22:39:54
 Originally by: Mr Bigglesworth
Are you sure this is the case, Mr alt?
I mean, surely some of the effects are simply generated by the client, and just the client.
Yes the lets say the players name is Billy, this is simplified of what happens.
1. Billy clicks his webifier on Joe.
2. Webifier_on_Joe command is sent to servers
3. Server checks Billy has lock and cap etc then executes command and sends info to all other player clients in grid that Billy has webbed Joe and they should draw the webby graphic around Joe.
4. This data goes out to all the other players in grid.
5. Some players have effects off and thier clients do not draw Joe being webbified but servers still spent times and resources sending them that info.
Point 5 is where we can improve efficiency by removing the need to send this info to all in grid.
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faceone
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Posted - 2005.11.17 23:53:00 -
[5]
Yes it could be a solution, but theres so much more to lag than just turning effects off. Ie/ Users puter, what they are running in conjunction to EVE, node, amount of people in the same system etc etc
I have read you mentioned "a lag issue" but what happens in a sys of 500 people having a fleet battle, of those two fleets 250ppl have their effects still on? - still lag if im not mistaken, then your back at point A. Alternatively to this, you could pre-arrange with your adversary for everyone to turn their effects off but wheres the fun in that? |
decon blue
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Posted - 2005.11.18 00:03:00 -
[6]
Step 1
Do away with gate campers and 150Km snipers.
Makes Inst jump not nessccary.
Step 2
Limit Corp Wars to 25 players each side.
Step 1 plus step 2 = No more lag problems.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.11.18 00:30:00 -
[7]
The same command that says "Jimmy gets hit by 250 damage" says "show gunshot."
There's no extra data being sent.
-
Proud member of the [23].
Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.11.18 00:34:00 -
[8]
I'd like to think CCP employ good combinatoric practices in transmitting data to and from the client. And the truth is that the client only neds to know about the hardeners to render the graphics so when they remove all but one effect, it'll only send one instruction to the client anyway.
And you're right, they should avoid sending redundant data to clients. I hope they already do this but it's possible they haven't thought of it or tried it.
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Dakath
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Posted - 2005.11.18 01:32:00 -
[9]
Gosh Mr. Alt. Your name is somewhat suspect, and too long. It stretches the columns and makes most of us not want to read any thread that you are on.
1000 baby bunnies were slow-roasted alive to create this signature line.
We Hate Bunny |
Dr Slaughter
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Posted - 2005.11.18 11:40:00 -
[10]
I wonder if the look ups required would actually just add to the servers cpu load?
Perhaps when a server node is reaching it's CPU/Memory limit it should just turn off all the effects and ignore whatever our clients are set for....
and I still think the local star gates should start becoming one way (out of the overloaded systems only) until the system recovers.
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.11.18 11:55:00 -
[11]
lag will be resolved with broadband only ie 256 ADSL minimum
64 bit dual core servers
each node being able to call upon more than 1 CPU in times of excess usage ie fleet battles on large scale
new servers and other hardware
Ongoing optimisations
nerfing all trial accounts onto a seperate server that only has high sec systems restrict them to 2 weeks (Could be the "free server for 14 day trials) this just keeps paying customers on the main database and .... they dont have all these trial accounts that are enver folloewd up by paying accounts clogging up the database.
By taking the 15,000 trial accounts out - empire systems will be much less lagged. Then those only paying get the full benefits of TQ (heck the free server could be limited to cruisers) its something to look at anyway
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Spy4Hire
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Posted - 2005.11.18 13:13:00 -
[12]
It is a sad state of affairs when the game is so unstable that you have to disable 80% of its features to enjoy 10% of its content.
Sound generation accounts for almost 40% of the client activity... or, rather, poor communication between client & sound drivers. My framerate improves almost 100% with sound off, reducing my auditory enjoyment of the game by an equal amount.
'All Effects' and turret effects turned off likewise improves framrate while reducing the visual impact of the game... and some of the biggest visual lag causes are not disabled such as missile/torp splash, ect.
I question my enjoyment now when some crybaby ganker running with every effect off gets to pwn me while simultaneously pulling themselves off because I'm lagged for wanting to enjoy the game in its entirety with visual and sound effects running.
question: enjoyed /w everything off?
Answer: no.
Might as well be back on silent text based MUDs with sound effects using the motherboard speaker.
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Blanke
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Posted - 2005.11.18 15:07:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Blanke on 18/11/2005 15:07:13
Originally by: Dr Slaughter
I wonder if the look ups required would actually just add to the servers cpu load?
Exactly. Instead of just broadcasting to all players in range the single packet (or less) of data that says "this guy is webbed", the server will send a packet to each player in range asking if effects are on, waiting for a reply, and conditionally send the "this guy is webbed" packet. Somehow that seems to me like working in the wrong direction.
Leave the development to the developers. It's in their job description.
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Warning: The above post and/or sig may contain hyperbole, sarcasm, typographical errors, misspellings, or a blatent disregard for the feelings and/or opinions of others. |
Blanke
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Posted - 2005.11.18 15:12:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Spy4Hire
It is a sad state of affairs when the game is so unstable that you have to disable 80% of its features to enjoy 10% of its content.
Sound generation accounts for almost 40% of the client activity... or, rather, poor communication between client & sound drivers. My framerate improves almost 100% with sound off, reducing my auditory enjoyment of the game by an equal amount.
'All Effects' and turret effects turned off likewise improves framrate while reducing the visual impact of the game... and some of the biggest visual lag causes are not disabled such as missile/torp splash, ect.
I question my enjoyment now when some crybaby ganker running with every effect off gets to pwn me while simultaneously pulling themselves off because I'm lagged for wanting to enjoy the game in its entirety with visual and sound effects running.
question: enjoyed /w everything off?
Answer: no.
Might as well be back on silent text based MUDs with sound effects using the motherboard speaker.
Your problems all sound client side; sound, effects, graphics settings are all handled on the client side, and have no impact on server or network performance in any way, or at least not in a way that turning them off would help.
Solution: Upgrade YOUR system. Leave effects on. Lots of people do.
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Warning: The above post and/or sig may contain hyperbole, sarcasm, typographical errors, misspellings, or a blatent disregard for the feelings and/or opinions of others. |
Dr Slaughter
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Posted - 2005.11.18 15:43:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Spy4Hire
<snip>
question: enjoyed /w everything off?
Answer: no.
Might as well be back on silent text based MUDs with sound effects using the motherboard speaker.
I used to play Essex and early BT Mud without any sound effect (well.. other than me cursing everytime someone killed me when I was about to level up from Necromancer). Enjoyed it plenty.
I guess my real point is this 'If the node is about to die block in-bound traffic and make things playable again by turning as much as possible off'. Good point about adding sound and splash effects to the list.
Then players have the chance to either leave or fight but, hopefully, not wake up at the clone bank when their client recovers.
dr s
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2005.11.18 15:56:00 -
[16]
maybe add restrictions for each node? in planetside only 200 people could be on the same continent.
"We brake for nobody"
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Andrue
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Posted - 2005.11.18 16:13:00 -
[17]
Why do people assume that CCP's development team don't know what they are doing? That's insulting.
Why do people assume that they have a better idea of how to 'fix' Eve than the people who wrote it? That's stupid.
--
(Battle hardened miner)
[Brackley, UK]
WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality. |
Dr Slaughter
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Posted - 2005.11.18 17:01:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 18/11/2005 17:01:08
Originally by: Andrue
Why do people assume that CCP's development team don't know what they are doing? That's insulting.
Why do people assume that they have a better idea of how to 'fix' Eve than the people who wrote it? That's stupid.
I'm sorry you're insulted with some of the games community musing over how the game might be improved. Personally I think it shows we're all very interested in what the developers wrote.
You could say that it's 'insulting' to the dev's to assume they would be 'insulted' by players taking an interest. Surely they're more likely to have a laugh at our poor understanding of the games architecture rather than take offence?
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Megadon
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Posted - 2005.11.18 17:24:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Megadon on 18/11/2005 17:26:59
God, everyone is suddenly a network engineer or a game designer
Turn the graphics and sound off on your own machine if you have lag
I mean do you REALLY think your observations are some kind of revelation or even correct for that matter?
Read the dev blog.
kthxbye
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Guvante
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Posted - 2005.11.18 19:15:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Guvante on 18/11/2005 19:16:58
Lol, you do realize that bandwidth isn't the primary concern in fleet battles, right? It is CPU, and adding a flag that checks to see if someone wants to recieve effect data would not help anything, as the save on CPU would be minimal
Besides, if you read the "On the Drawingboard" you will see they plan on using that data in a much less graphic intensive manner, in order to allow people who are playing with turrents and effects off to be able to tell that the guy is in fact webbing and scrambling him, since as it stands now there is no way of telling you are being scrambled without trying to warp
Edit: Another thing is that CCP has the utilities to tell where the lag on the server is, the drone and factory changes are being brought forth because of the observation that these were causing the most issues for the SOL servers, so unless they find out that suddenly sending effect information is at the top of their priority list  , they will just fix other things first 
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WeLoveYouLongTime
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Posted - 2005.11.18 20:29:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Megadon
Edited by: Megadon on 18/11/2005 17:26:59
God, everyone is suddenly a network engineer or a game designer
Turn the graphics and sound off on your own machine if you have lag
I mean do you REALLY think your observations are some kind of revelation or even correct for that matter?
Read the dev blog.
kthxbye
Well thank you for your positive contribution, at least people are putting ideas to help ccp unlike you who only posts to troll or flame.
If you've got nothing useful to say then dont post.
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infused
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:03:00 -
[22]
Edited by: infused on 18/11/2005 21:03:16
Originally by: WeLoveYouLongTime
Originally by: Megadon
Edited by: Megadon on 18/11/2005 17:26:59
God, everyone is suddenly a network engineer or a game designer
Turn the graphics and sound off on your own machine if you have lag
I mean do you REALLY think your observations are some kind of revelation or even correct for that matter?
Read the dev blog.
kthxbye
Well thank you for your positive contribution, at least people are putting ideas to help ccp unlike you who only posts to troll or flame.
If you've got nothing useful to say then dont post.
Post with your main then nub.
Also, effects are not send from the server. It's all handled client side. It makes no sense and all and ineffect I can see you have no idea what you are talking about.
Graphics lag does not = Network lag.
Plain and simple.
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Haniblecter Teg
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:24:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Spy4Hire
It is a sad state of affairs when the game is so unstable that you have to disable 80% of its features to enjoy 10% of its content.
Sound generation accounts for almost 40% of the client activity... or, rather, poor communication between client & sound drivers. My framerate improves almost 100% with sound off, reducing my auditory enjoyment of the game by an equal amount.
'All Effects' and turret effects turned off likewise improves framrate while reducing the visual impact of the game... and some of the biggest visual lag causes are not disabled such as missile/torp splash, ect.
I question my enjoyment now when some crybaby ganker running with every effect off gets to pwn me while simultaneously pulling themselves off because I'm lagged for wanting to enjoy the game in its entirety with visual and sound effects running.
question: enjoyed /w everything off?
Answer: no.
Might as well be back on silent text based MUDs with sound effects using the motherboard speaker.
Here's a simple solution for you, run EVE on something larger than your TI92.
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