| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Imhotep Khem
   |
Posted - 2005.11.20 19:43:00 -
[1]
With the planned extension of combat through increased HP, it looks like the usefullness of long range setups is coming to an end. Well, at least in pvp. In truth, range has always been a step-child in pvp, due to the fact that you can't keep your enemy from warping away.
When fighting a short range ship with a long range ship, you need to do enough damage before he closes the distance. With increased HP, this makes life much easier on the short range ship. The stacking nerf just compounds this. Range setups can and must trade defence for offenct. To that end, they stack damage mods. But if now the damage mods will be nerfed, this is a double whack at the long range setups.
1. Ships have more HP giving more time for enemy to close the distance.
2. Damage mods nerfed, meaning long range setups do less damage.
Something must be done to fix this, or long range setups will die. Specifically, Cyclone and Thrasher are approaching uselessness.
____
If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Renox
|
Posted - 2005.11.20 19:55:00 -
[2]
no offence, but have you ever actually flown a short range ship? Boosting them has been in order for a long time (though not sure this will only boost short range ships). Short range ships are often a do or die thing where long range is safer by far. Besides, long range will still be the way to go in fleet battles as focused fire rule supreme there.
"
While Celestial Apoc is filled with smack talking, safespot hugging, gate cudling, empire war exploiting |
Mercade
|
Posted - 2005.11.20 20:07:00 -
[3]
Last Poll I saw sniping was not in favor of
the vast majority of people in pvp
including the vast majority of people sniping because it is the only mechanic to successfully counter the lack of warp stab overuse, bubble random effeciency (somewhat fixed I hear), and instas.
Personally I would rather a world where sniping wasn't as prevalent. It's like campers in CS. Combined with proper strategy of course, but soley as the military tactic... umm not fun for everyone.
 Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Abdalion
But but but....Bald is beautiful! 
It sure is. Wait... what are we talking about here? Nevermind.
|
Toaster Oven
|
Posted - 2005.11.20 20:25:00 -
[4]
I believe upcoming T2 ammo will solve these problems for you.
|
twisted genius
|
Posted - 2005.11.20 20:25:00 -
[5]
here is how it goes:
Long range fighters get jumped by short range fighters
the next time they fight they fit short range
the short range fighters get jumped by long range fighters.
ETC ETC
Yar !
|
Menelak Faf
|
Posted - 2005.11.20 21:57:00 -
[6]
Log onto the test server and warp into FFA, then tell me that long range combat is dead.
SoonÖ is relative. |
Sobeseki Pawi
|
Posted - 2005.11.20 21:58:00 -
[7]
Sniping die?
Bring it on.
~Captain Cutie, HFS Event Horizon
Biomass fears me.
Sovereignty 2.0 |
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 00:19:00 -
[8]
The problem is that, as currently projected, it'll kill a large proportion of Minmatar ships with it.
I'm not a fan of sniping.
I do fly minmatar.
I'm not saying sniping needs rescuing, I'm saying arty needs looking at in the light of these changes.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Nafri
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 00:21:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
The problem is that, as currently projected, it'll kill a large proportion of Minmatar ships with it.
I'm not a fan of sniping.
I do fly minmatar.
I'm not saying sniping needs rescuing, I'm saying arty needs looking at in the light of these changes.
under 100km you have no chance in a tempest in SISI atm 
|
Imhotep Khem
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 01:08:00 -
[10]
I'm not talking about snipeing. Im talking about long range. Snipers don't use shields.
____
If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Sun Ra
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 01:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Maya Rkell
The problem is that, as currently projected, it'll kill a large proportion of Minmatar ships with it.
I'm not a fan of sniping.
I do fly minmatar.
I'm not saying sniping needs rescuing, I'm saying arty needs looking at in the light of these changes.
under 100km you have no chance in a tempest in SISI atm
Rubbish, i raped aload of long range groups on sis the othernight warped into the battle field see what pilot or get was behidn them warp to it warped back on top of them, they died pretty quick, granted 1400s seemed pretty ****ty yeah
We're coming for you |
Gronsak
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 02:05:00 -
[12]
im a mega pilot and do both blasters and rails (clsoe and far range)
i keep reading from mimi ship users that they have less DPS than rails and lasers. OFF THE BOAT YES, but you get two dmg bonouses on ur ships, tempest for example gets +5% rof and +5 DMG. So i did some maths and with max skills the tempest and the megathron gun for gun are equal (only difference is that the mega has 7 guns vs the tempest 6guns).
I know a tempest fit 4 dmg mods and 1 pg mod usually.
After the patch i assume u guys ill fit 3 dmg mods 1 tracking enhancer and 1 pg mod
with maybe 2 sensor boosters, 2 tracking comps and 1 xlbooster with 1 invol fireld?
after patch the megathron will most probably do
7 425s
2 tracking comps 2 sensor boosters
3 dmg mods, 1 tracking enhancer, 2 hardeners 1 rep
as far as i see it, the tempest and mega become VERY even snipers, DPS is almost equal we got 7 guns u got 6 huns BUT your longer range ammo does more dmg than our, donno if this makes up the 1 gun difference
so can someone tell me where i have gone wrong with my math or are the tempest users just want their ride pimped
|
Steppa
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 07:06:00 -
[13]
I've played since beta.
Long-range sniping killed fun pvp combat. All fleet battles became contests between super-long-range ships. Missiles, drones, and any mid to short range weapons became something for npc hunting or very small unit actions.
The long-range guys still have a significant role to play, but instead of being the primary combatants, I want to see them in fire-support roles like they were initally intended to be. With the gang/squadron changes coming, you will be hopefully able to warp in multiple smaller gangs at various ranges to a target. This will make all the weapons and their optimals more effective.
|
Shamis Orzoz
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 07:16:00 -
[14]
Anything that prevents people from just sitting at 120km from each other and activating guns is a good thing in my opinion.
Perhaps we'll once again see long fleet fights with a mixture of close and long range setups...and people might even have to use tacklers on occasion. It'll be nice.
|
Tar om
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 09:59:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Renox
no offence, but have you ever actually flown a short range ship? Boosting them has been in order for a long time (though not sure this will only boost short range ships). Short range ships are often a do or die thing where long range is safer by far. Besides, long range will still be the way to go in fleet battles as focused fire rule supreme there.
Well you say short range is do or die, and long range is safer - but thats only true if the ships are actually AT long range. If you're moving through gates in a long range setup you are incredibly vulnerable, and a cov ops setting up a warpin on a long range group is deadly. Long range is very difficult to take advantage of when the combat is usually conducted around gates, unless you're already setup and camping a gate.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
"The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions." |
Juan Andalusian
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 10:04:00 -
[16]
Quote:
In truth, range has always been a step-child in pvp
Riiiiight
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
linux4ever
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 10:07:00 -
[17]
sorry gut if u want to fly close now do it like me full dmg
i aint got a large repper cause if u close range u screwed at all if u are fristtarget lol ^^
bye
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 11:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Sun Ra
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Maya Rkell
The problem is that, as currently projected, it'll kill a large proportion of Minmatar ships with it.
I'm not a fan of sniping.
I do fly minmatar.
I'm not saying sniping needs rescuing, I'm saying arty needs looking at in the light of these changes.
under 100km you have no chance in a tempest in SISI atm
Rubbish, i raped aload of long range groups on sis the othernight warped into the battle field see what pilot or get was behidn them warp to it warped back on top of them, they died pretty quick, granted 1400s seemed pretty ****ty yeah
of course autocannons *****long range setups, but Im a howitzer user, I want to stay at 40-50km to use my damps and other EW stuff, the **** with staying at 100km is that you can hardly use any EW, making the ship totally pointless for me
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 11:19:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gronsak
im a mega pilot and do both blasters and rails (clsoe and far range)
i keep reading from mimi ship users that they have less DPS than rails and lasers. OFF THE BOAT YES, but you get two dmg bonouses on ur ships, tempest for example gets +5% rof and +5 DMG. So i did some maths and with max skills the tempest and the megathron gun for gun are equal (only difference is that the mega has 7 guns vs the tempest 6guns).
I know a tempest fit 4 dmg mods and 1 pg mod usually.
After the patch i assume u guys ill fit 3 dmg mods 1 tracking enhancer and 1 pg mod
with maybe 2 sensor boosters, 2 tracking comps and 1 xlbooster with 1 invol fireld?
after patch the megathron will most probably do
7 425s
2 tracking comps 2 sensor boosters
3 dmg mods, 1 tracking enhancer, 2 hardeners 1 rep
as far as i see it, the tempest and mega become VERY even snipers, DPS is almost equal we got 7 guns u got 6 huns BUT your longer range ammo does more dmg than our, donno if this makes up the 1 gun difference
so can someone tell me where i have gone wrong with my math or are the tempest users just want their ride pimped
at 120km you have no problem to *****a megathron in a tempest, only takes you some minutes
|
Diana Merris
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 14:13:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Gronsak
im a mega pilot and do both blasters and rails (clsoe and far range)
i keep reading from mimi ship users that they have less DPS than rails and lasers. OFF THE BOAT YES, but you get two dmg bonouses on ur ships, tempest for example gets +5% rof and +5 DMG. So i did some maths and with max skills the tempest and the megathron gun for gun are equal (only difference is that the mega has 7 guns vs the tempest 6guns).
I know a tempest fit 4 dmg mods and 1 pg mod usually.
After the patch i assume u guys ill fit 3 dmg mods 1 tracking enhancer and 1 pg mod
with maybe 2 sensor boosters, 2 tracking comps and 1 xlbooster with 1 invol fireld?
after patch the megathron will most probably do
7 425s
2 tracking comps 2 sensor boosters
3 dmg mods, 1 tracking enhancer, 2 hardeners 1 rep
as far as i see it, the tempest and mega become VERY even snipers, DPS is almost equal we got 7 guns u got 6 huns BUT your longer range ammo does more dmg than our, donno if this makes up the 1 gun difference
so can someone tell me where i have gone wrong with my math or are the tempest users just want their ride pimped
There is one major problem with your arguement that I've bolded in the quote.
The Tempest has 2 damage bonuses.
The Typhoon does not.
The Cyclone does not.
The Rupture has 2 damage bonuses.
The Stabber does not.
The Bellicose does not.
The Scythe does not.
The Thrasher does not.
The Rifter does not.
The Breacher does not.
The Vigil does not.
The Slasher does not.
The Probe does not.
The Burst does not.
Unfortunately even the Dev fall prey to the "Tempest has 2 damage bonuses" agruement.
The truth is that only 2 ships have a real damage bonus. The RoF bonus on the others is just there to make projectiles good enough to actually use rather than putting hybreds or lasers on Minmatar ships which many many people were doing after the tracking changes. CCP had to boost projectiles (a year later) just to get people to use them again.
|
Gray Carmicheal
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 14:51:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Diana Merris
There is one major problem with your arguement that I've bolded in the quote.
The Tempest has 2 damage bonuses.
The Typhoon does not.
The Cyclone does not.
The Rupture has 2 damage bonuses.
The Stabber does not.
The Bellicose does not.
The Scythe does not.
The Thrasher does not.
The Rifter does not.
The Breacher does not.
The Vigil does not.
The Slasher does not.
The Probe does not.
The Burst does not.
Unfortunately even the Dev fall prey to the "Tempest has 2 damage bonuses" agruement.
The truth is that only 2 ships have a real damage bonus. The RoF bonus on the others is just there to make projectiles good enough to actually use rather than putting hybreds or lasers on Minmatar ships which many many people were doing after the tracking changes. CCP had to boost projectiles (a year later) just to get people to use them again.
I don't remember the others, but I KNOW the Vigil will soon have at least 1 DMG bonus. I think the Rifter's getting a new one as well.
________________
SPACE FOR RENT
Inquire Ingame |
Phlaago Rexor
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 15:02:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Phlaago Rexor on 21/11/2005 15:05:26
actually using the figures in the item DB.
Full skill tempest with 6x 1400mm II in theory does outdamage the mega packing 7x 425mm II... but only if both use the longest range ammo. (carb lead vs iron charges)
However, the mega can drop down to 2nd longest range, outdamage the pest by about 5% and keep about 5% better optimal range.
Edit:
ohh.. to Mr Gray Carmicheal, the vigil actually gets nerfed. noone asked for a damage bonus to replace the velocity bonus currently on it, it has a huge sig for a frigate and only 2 turrets.. its pretty clear which bonus is better. It was never a damagedealer to begin with, it wont be after mk2 patch either because it only has 2 turrets where the rifter has 3.
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 15:08:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Gray Carmicheal
I don't remember the others, but I KNOW the Vigil will soon have at least 1 DMG bonus. I think the Rifter's getting a new one as well.
rifter is getting a tracking bonus, not damage
Originally by: Chowdown
We camp a lot
|
Wrayeth
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 15:25:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 21/11/2005 15:29:22
Originally by: Nafri
under 100km you have no chance in a tempest in SISI atm
Perfect.  I seem to recall posting that this was going to be a problem and that the tempest needed a boost, or at least 1400's did. I also seem to recall being called "crazy".
I really, REALLY hate being right sometimes.
And you know they won't fix the problem for at least six months, if ever. So now, in addition to my raven being mostly useless in PvP, my tempest will be useless, too, except with an autocannon setup (I like autocannons, but don't want to use them all the time).
Why, oh why did I have to read the forums today?
-Wrayeth
|
Crellion
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 15:42:00 -
[25]
Actually autos are better than blasters in anything but 2v1 (mega and helios v tempy ). Also tempy is better than Mega above 90km. So
Mega > Tempy 0-10km
Tempy > Mega 10-35km
Mega > Tempy 35 - 90 Km
Tempy > Mega 90 - 150 ish km
add: short range tempy more versatile and therefore more usefull than blast/ron in group pvp and 1v1 90% of the time
add: Burst dmg teh pown for fleet pvp (nobody gets more than 1-2 volleys on each target.
= Why boost tempy?
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 16:15:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Nafri on 21/11/2005 16:15:34
Originally by: Crellion
Actually autos are better than blasters in anything but 2v1 (mega and helios v tempy ). Also tempy is better than Mega above 90km. So
Mega > Tempy 0-10km
Tempy > Mega 10-35km
Mega > Tempy 35 - 90 Km
Tempy > Mega 90 - 150 ish km
add: short range tempy more versatile and therefore more usefull than blast/ron in group pvp and 1v1 90% of the time
add: Burst dmg teh pown for fleet pvp (nobody gets more than 1-2 volleys on each target.
= Why boost tempy?
nah not 90km, you need to make him use real long range ammo before it becomes handy (100km +), then you start to do equal damage in a tempest, not more. And in pure DPS is still sucks compared to mega, must be mega ammo vs shields which helps me soo much in long range combat (and maybe my range implants)
|
Wrayeth
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 16:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Nafri
and @ wraith, caldari ships are really nast on SISI, a cerberus can hurt my tempest more then some BS at 100km, and ravens are just WTF BBQ, you always have to warp out if thy come for you
Hmm...
Alrighty. What about ravens vs. HACs? And is the CPU on tech 2 ballistic controls still 40?
-Wrayeth
|
slip66
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 16:45:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Anything that prevents people from just sitting at 120km from each other and activating guns is a good thing in my opinion.
Perhaps we'll once again see long fleet fights with a mixture of close and long range setups...and people might even have to use tacklers on occasion. It'll be nice.
Man I agree 100% I really dont enjoy the long range snipe fest of today.
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 16:54:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Wrayeth
Originally by: Nafri
and @ wraith, caldari ships are really nast on SISI, a cerberus can hurt my tempest more then some BS at 100km, and ravens are just WTF BBQ, you always have to warp out if thy come for you
Hmm...
Alrighty. What about ravens vs. HACs? And is the CPU on tech 2 ballistic controls still 40?
Dunno against HAC, but I saw them raping HAC shiels armors pretty fine if thy used cruise missles, at least thy were doing more damage then my guns
|
Wrayeth
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 17:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Nafri
Dunno against HAC, but I saw them raping HAC shiels armors pretty fine if thy used cruise missles, at least thy were doing more damage then my guns
You're kidding?!!
Maybe I'll actually get off my ass and get on the test server, then. I've been putting off patching up my test client since my last update was halfway in between major builds, so I'll probably have to uninstall and start fresh and that's always a pain.
-Wrayeth
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |