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Retribution does 1 mid slot gimp it?

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Dark fire	Posted - 2005.11.21 21:51:00 - [1] Hello, I dont flu amarr ships at all i can't even use lasers, I fly a harpy. However my CEO has the retribution bpo which means I can get it dirt cheap rather than paying 20+ mill for a harpy. I do hear the Retribution packs a nice punch but 1 mid slot! Does that gimp it badly is it worth me investing training time for this ship? How does it compare with the harpy? Thanks
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.11.21 21:53:00 - [2] It's gimped alright.
keepiru	Posted - 2005.11.21 21:56:00 - [3] I would say "no **** sherlock" ------------- Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
Jack Cade	Posted - 2005.11.21 22:02:00 - [4] They need to give it a 4/2/5 slot layout.
keepiru	Posted - 2005.11.21 22:03:00 - [5] ungimping frigate beam fittings would b nice too. ------------- Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.11.21 22:04:00 - [6] it completely gimps it as a solo PvP ship in a gang, or NPCing i think it would be quite good
keepiru	Posted - 2005.11.21 22:06:00 - [7] Well, it can still die pitifully to a single npc ceptor that gets under 1km and lets the cruisers hammer you. Unless you mount a smartie, and even then... And beams are just non-viable on it. ------------- Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
Dark fire	Posted - 2005.11.21 22:55:00 - [8] Edited by: Dark fire on 21/11/2005 22:55:21 Hmmm this does not sound like a ringing endorsement any amarr pilots there that fly this in pvp? Whats your opinion? I would be interested to know. Thanks
Jaleean Atheria	Posted - 2005.11.21 23:10:00 - [9] Basic gist of this thread: PVE or GROUP PVP, its a very good ship Solo PVP : Look elsewhere.
Hobblin I	Posted - 2005.11.21 23:14:00 - [10] For group PvP... nothing spectacular about it. For solo Pvp, it is absolutely useless.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2005.11.22 01:11:00 - [11] Originally by: Jaleean Atheria Basic gist of this thread: PVE or GROUP PVP, its a very good ship Solo PVP : Look elsewhere. Yah. I think it's pretty reasonable as a small group skirmishing ship. Other people think it's Satan's gift to mankind. YMMV.
Hobblin I	Posted - 2005.11.22 01:14:00 - [12] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: Jaleean Atheria Basic gist of this thread: PVE or GROUP PVP, its a very good ship Solo PVP : Look elsewhere. Yah. I think it's pretty reasonable as a small group skirmishing ship. Other people think it's Satan's gift to mankind. YMMV. Reasonable, almost seems you are trying to justify flying one. Most ppl seek justification for training one. My purpose.. to get to the Zealot. Not to fly a ship that is reasonable at stuff, that other ships can do just as well, and better thanks to 1 extra slot.
Spyres	Posted - 2005.11.22 01:32:00 - [13] I've used a Retri before for NPC, and it was very good at it. However, I've also been ambushed in it, and it was basically a sitting duck. Web or AB is not a choice I like having to make. Having said that, why should all ships be good at all things? I don't think the lack of a midslot is necessarily a gimp, it's just that this ship isn't totally cut out for solo PvP.
Hobblin I	Posted - 2005.11.22 01:42:00 - [14] Originally by: Spyres I've used a Retri before for NPC, and it was very good at it. However, I've also been ambushed in it, and it was basically a sitting duck. Web or AB is not a choice I like having to make. Having said that, why should all ships be good at all things? I don't think the lack of a midslot is necessarily a gimp, it's just that this ship isn't totally cut out for solo PvP. That argument would hold if it was great at non-solo PvP. The fact remains that other assaults do that role just as well. And most often better. Given the choice between an Enyo, Retri, Harpy or Wolf in a group op (given you could fly all)... which would you be best off picking? I would pick the Wolf or Enyo (mostly cuz I have never flown a harpy). They do decent dmg, they can fly fastish, they can web or scramble. You can do 1 of the 3 things. And you can't do it well.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2005.11.22 01:47:00 - [15] Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 22/11/2005 01:51:49 Two of the three, one pretty damn well (shooting stuff) and one average (550ms on AB2) It's hard to gauge exactly because I only fly Amarr ships, but do other AFs really do as much damage as the short-range gank Retri? I'm talking the Med Pulse II/Multi/HS2 setup, just shy of 130dps on Quickfit. THat's my skills. 160dps maxed skills.
Hobblin I	Posted - 2005.11.22 01:52:00 - [16] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Two of the three, one pretty damn well (shooting stuff) and one average (550ms on AB2) It's hard to gauge exactly because I only fly Amarr ships, but do other AFs really do as much damage as the short-range gank Retri? I'm talking the Med Pulse II/Multi/HS2 setup, just shy of 130dps on Quickfit. Wasn't talking about dmg. If we want dmg, then we need to make it 2 out of 4. And only 1 of the 4 better than the other assaults (dmg). However, you failed to answer the question. Would you in the right mind pick a retri for say 30more dps in a group op? or the ability to get that extra point on the escaping BS/barge/hauler... or the ability to web the enemy as he tries to make a dash for the gate?
Spyres	Posted - 2005.11.22 01:53:00 - [17] Edited by: Spyres on 22/11/2005 01:54:20 Originally by: Hobblin I That argument would hold if it was great at non-solo PvP. So, is your point that given the three activities (solo pvp, group pvp, pve), every ship in the game (or at least those that appear combat-focussed) has to be good at at least two of them? I'm not being facetious or picking an argument here, I'm just interested to see if this is the consensus... ? Originally by: Hobblin I The fact remains that other assaults do that role just as well. And most often better. Are you suggesting that all ships, across the races, should compare identically to to their counterpart ships? Again, not picking a fight, just asking. I like that the Enyo, for example, is a completely different beast to the Wolf, and so on. I like that there are mismatches between ships of different races in the same class, and I don't always think that making everything as perfectly even as possible is a good thing - which was the point I was getting at previously. I don't think I explained it terribly well.
Hobblin I	Posted - 2005.11.22 01:56:00 - [18] Originally by: Spyres Edited by: Spyres on 22/11/2005 01:54:20 Originally by: Hobblin I That argument would hold if it was great at non-solo PvP. So, is your point that given the three activities (solo pvp, group pvp, pve), every ship in the game (or at least those that appear combat-focussed) has to be good at at least two of them? I'm not being facetious or picking an argument here, I'm just interested to see if this is the consensus... ? Originally by: Hobblin I The fact remains that other assaults do that role just as well. And most often better. Are you suggesting that all ships, across the races, should compare identically to to their counterpart ships? Again, not picking a fight, just asking. I like that the Enyo, for example, is a completely different beast to the Wolf, and so on. I like that there are mismatches between ships of different races in the same class, and I don't always think that making everything as perfectly even as possible is a good thing - which was the point I was getting at previously. I don't think I explained it terribly well. No one wants perfectly similar ships. Just useful ones. If the only purpose of the Amarr assault is npc, then yes, I have a problem with that. Seeing as the other Amarr assault isn't quite the beast at solo pvp either.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2005.11.22 02:00:00 - [19] I'm not talking straight-up blobfights. Generally, where I live those don't happen. What we have is skirmish warfare between mismatched forces. Frankly, in many situations you want exactly one enemy ship scrambled, no more, no less, because if you scramble two as they're warping out that's twice as much hostile firepower to deal with. When you're whittling down the enemy and you have two inties already then no, a third isn't useful in many cases. Also, if you're gonna compare it to say an Arty Wolf, you probably should keep in mind that even with my fairly weak skills I can hit an inty orbiting at 500m with every shot.
Hobblin I	Posted - 2005.11.22 02:01:00 - [20] Edited by: Hobblin I on 22/11/2005 02:03:25 Originally by: Joerd Toastius Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 22/11/2005 01:51:49 Two of the three, one pretty damn well (shooting stuff) and one average (550ms on AB2) It's hard to gauge exactly because I only fly Amarr ships, but do other AFs really do as much damage as the short-range gank Retri? I'm talking the Med Pulse II/Multi/HS2 setup, just shy of 130dps on Quickfit. THat's my skills. 160dps maxed skills. The enyo with my skills does 118 dps while still having 1 slot for rockets/missiles to add to that dps. Thats assaults 4, small railgun spec 4, surgical strike 4... so definitely similar dps. However,
Hobblin I	Posted - 2005.11.22 02:03:00 - [21] Originally by: Joerd Toastius I'm not talking straight-up blobfights. Generally, where I live those don't happen. What we have is skirmish warfare between mismatched forces. Frankly, in many situations you want exactly one enemy ship scrambled, no more, no less, because if you scramble two as they're warping out that's twice as much hostile firepower to deal with. When you're whittling down the enemy and you have two inties already then no, a third isn't useful in many cases. Also, if you're gonna compare it to say an Arty Wolf, you probably should keep in mind that even with my fairly weak skills I can hit an inty orbiting at 500m with every shot. That inty would better have an mwd running and you a web for you to hit, because with my skills, I have trouble hitting an assault with every shot orbitting at 500m. Unless I have a web.
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2005.11.22 06:26:00 - [22] As someone who flies Amarr ships almost exclusively, I'll tell you this: Anything the Retribution can do, other ships can do better. The reason? 1 mid slot. Oh, and it's resist distribution is terrible as well. Even with the Harpy's dependancy on expensive shield boosters, it's a superior ship to the Retribution. "The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously." -Freidrich Nietzche
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.11.22 06:32:00 - [23] It's all logical. What is the minimum number of med slots needed for a frig to perform minimum of its functions? 1 - AB or MWD 2 - web 3 - scrambler If you take away just 1 of those, you are gimping the frig.
Neoteric	Posted - 2005.11.22 12:59:00 - [24] NOT a nice Solo-PvP ship.. A Nice NPC ship.. In a PvP Group, as long as their are a few others in inties to cover the lock down, then the Retrib does all right. And as your in a gang, you need to place trust in your gang to get the most from this ship. Your a liability if your friends have to help you all the time swatting those that have you scramm'd, webbed or takin damage. But your gang should be able to multi Hold, not go for just 1 Target. And why can it be a nice addition to a small gang of little shippy's... Low Slots Take the Highs with HPL II's, the Mid with a MWD & those Lows are for HS II's, use a Co-Pro to fit. After RMN I may not recommend 4 HSII, maybe 1 Tracken Enhancer II will be of help.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.11.22 13:13:00 - [25] Edited by: Meridius on 22/11/2005 13:13:37 Originally by: Joerd Toastius I'm talking the Med Pulse II/Multi/HS2 setup, just shy of 130dps on Quickfit. THat's my skills. 160dps maxed skills. Ishkur post-patch will be able to do 134dps with light drones up to around 40-50km. Highs with either more damage or cap sucking. It can easily outdamage a 'gank' Retribution with one main difference. More midslots... lawl ________________________________________________________
Solar Sailor	Posted - 2005.11.22 13:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Face Lifter Edited by: Face Lifter on 22/11/2005 06:34:23 It's all logical. What is the minimum number of med slots needed for a frig to perform minimum of its functions? 1 - AB or MWD 2 - web 3 - scrambler If you take away just 1 of those, you are gimping the frig. Additionally.. what's the minimum number of low slots needed for frig? 0 Frigs can operate just fine with 0 low slots, because none of the low slot mods are critical to their functions. You want a tackler go buy an Inty. The job of an AF is to deal damage, NOT to tackle. The retri does just fine when used properly (ie in a gang with 2 retri, 2 tackle). Its an out and out gank ship designed to do damage fast, if you cant deal with that then leave it alone.
Justin Cody	Posted - 2005.11.22 14:42:00 - [27] Originally by: Solar Sailor Originally by: Face Lifter Edited by: Face Lifter on 22/11/2005 06:34:23 It's all logical. What is the minimum number of med slots needed for a frig to perform minimum of its functions? 1 - AB or MWD 2 - web 3 - scrambler If you take away just 1 of those, you are gimping the frig. Additionally.. what's the minimum number of low slots needed for frig? 0 Frigs can operate just fine with 0 low slots, because none of the low slot mods are critical to their functions. You want a tackler go buy an Inty. The job of an AF is to deal damage, NOT to tackle. The retri does just fine when used properly (ie in a gang with 2 retri, 2 tackle). Its an out and out gank ship designed to do damage fast, if you cant deal with that then leave it alone. /signed "Ill armed and half starved, they were still desperate men, to whom danger had lost all fears: for what was death that they should shun it to cling to such a life as theirs?"--- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2005.11.22 14:51:00 - [28] Originally by: Hobblin I Originally by: Joerd Toastius I'm not talking straight-up blobfights. Generally, where I live those don't happen. What we have is skirmish warfare between mismatched forces. Frankly, in many situations you want exactly one enemy ship scrambled, no more, no less, because if you scramble two as they're warping out that's twice as much hostile firepower to deal with. When you're whittling down the enemy and you have two inties already then no, a third isn't useful in many cases. Also, if you're gonna compare it to say an Arty Wolf, you probably should keep in mind that even with my fairly weak skills I can hit an inty orbiting at 500m with every shot. That inty would better have an mwd running and you a web for you to hit, because with my skills, I have trouble hitting an assault with every shot orbitting at 500m. Unless I have a web. That was vs a crusader with his MWD off and me with an AB in mid. Maybe it was just fluky, I dunno, but I was putting on consistent large chunks of damage every volley.
Hobblin I	Posted - 2005.11.22 15:56:00 - [29] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: Hobblin I Originally by: Joerd Toastius I'm not talking straight-up blobfights. Generally, where I live those don't happen. What we have is skirmish warfare between mismatched forces. Frankly, in many situations you want exactly one enemy ship scrambled, no more, no less, because if you scramble two as they're warping out that's twice as much hostile firepower to deal with. When you're whittling down the enemy and you have two inties already then no, a third isn't useful in many cases. Also, if you're gonna compare it to say an Arty Wolf, you probably should keep in mind that even with my fairly weak skills I can hit an inty orbiting at 500m with every shot. That inty would better have an mwd running and you a web for you to hit, because with my skills, I have trouble hitting an assault with every shot orbitting at 500m. Unless I have a web. That was vs a crusader with his MWD off and me with an AB in mid. Maybe it was just fluky, I dunno, but I was putting on consistent large chunks of damage every volley. Yes, it was fluky for sure. Those saying get a tackler... ROFL. Tackler for an assault frig. Why not just fly a Blasterthron then and have some guy tackle for you. 700 dps, similar range. And you still have the ability to tank dmg while having some mid slots for ew... since you are not tackling. ROFL... tackler for an assault frig so it can kill. WOW.
Gunsnroses	Posted - 2005.11.22 21:12:00 - [30] Edited by: Gunsnroses on 22/11/2005 21:17:32 Retribution is the best frigate in the game. End of story. 150 dps, and the best Frigate tank. Hands down the retribution is 100% perfect. Whine about a ship that is truly broken like the excutioner, and maybe it will get fixed.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.11.22 21:22:00 - [31] Nope, its not. Fleet anti-Frig: Outclassed by Harpy. Solo: Outclassed by every ship in existance. Small groups: Outclassed by everything with more midslots. NPC: Reasonaly usefull ship. Now go NPCing and let the big boys talk about things you have no clue about (PvP)
Solar Sailor	Posted - 2005.11.22 21:36:00 - [32] Hmm I see an opportunity... Yes Retribution is crap, pure and utter crap. Everyone should stop buying them and put theirs on sale. Of course with so many people selling them for scrap the prices will drop, but you have to accept it to get rid of this steaming pile of crud. BTW WTB Retribution - 4 mil in rens, will buy as many as your selling
Hobblin I	Posted - 2005.11.22 21:38:00 - [33] Originally by: Gunsnroses Edited by: Gunsnroses on 22/11/2005 21:17:32 Retribution is the best frigate in the game. End of story. 150 dps, and the best Frigate tank. Hands down the retribution is 100% perfect. Whine about a ship that is truly broken like the excutioner, and maybe it will get fixed. Wrong
Uggs386	Posted - 2005.11.22 21:54:00 - [34] Why people think a retribution is a good pvp ship is beyond me. You say its good in fleet, well considering small beams are gimped you have no choice but to fit pulses and pulses have hardly any range and all af's are too slow to catch an inty therefore its useless. Harpy with shortest range ammo outranges a retri with longest range ammo. Solo absolutely pointless you have to fit a web otherwise 1 inty will kill you. So you fit web but then you have no scram so your opponent can just warp away. Not to mention without and ab your slow as crap. Same thing applies for small group, retri is absolutely pointless to fly unless your npcing.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.11.22 23:54:00 - [35] Originally by: Uggs386 Why people think a retribution is a good pvp ship is beyond me. Only reason i can honestly think of is that they really are those 'omgz amarr overpowered' people and are boasting about the Retribution so it never gets usefull. ________________________________________________________
keepiru	Posted - 2005.11.23 00:12:00 - [36] So, its all a fiendish plot then ;o ------------- Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.11.23 00:28:00 - [37] Originally by: Meridius Only reason i can honestly think of is that they really are those 'omgz amarr overpowered' people and are boasting about the Retribution so it never gets usefull. Well, so far nobody in this thread proposed that thinking outside the box will fix the problem (as in, "think harder, it'll grow a mid") so consider yourself lucky . Is losing a high for a mid a real trade-off? I know I feel a bit "cheated" (maybe its just a wrong perception, who knows) when someone says "replace the utility by a mid". I'd say, it's fine if the ship loses its (silly) weakness but it should have another. I'd have to agree the ishkur to come just look mean and the harpy is an old reference. The vengeance, hawk, wolf and jaguar also need help, and with the same amount of mids the enyo wouldn't look so hot when compared to the retribution. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- Spreadsheet - Damage @ range.
vile56	Posted - 2005.11.23 00:52:00 - [38] this is to those of u that have af. is the low insurance cost a bug or is it supposed to be that. ie if i get best ins(99%) i will pay over 1 mil and only recive 3.5 mil on a ret is this accurate(i payed 11 mil for it) well walk up to her with your pants down and if she runs away it was never meant to be.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.11.23 01:00:00 - [39] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 23/11/2005 01:00:03 Originally by: vile56 Is the low insurance cost a bug or is it supposed to be that. Insurance cost and payout are based upon fixed values, and the market value is variable. As long as people will buy/sell above the fixed value (which is quite likely) it will stay that way. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- Spreadsheet - Damage @ range.
Gunsnroses	Posted - 2005.11.24 00:17:00 - [40] Originally by: Uggs386 Why people think a retribution is a good pvp ship is beyond me. You say its good in fleet, well considering small beams are gimped you have no choice but to fit pulses and pulses have hardly any range and all af's are too slow to catch an inty therefore its useless. Harpy with shortest range ammo outranges a retri with longest range ammo. Solo absolutely pointless you have to fit a web otherwise 1 inty will kill you. So you fit web but then you have no scram so your opponent can just warp away. Not to mention without and ab your slow as crap. Same thing applies for small group, retri is absolutely pointless to fly unless your npcing. I've said it once, and i'll say it again. No int can kill a retribution. I beg of you to bring your int to me, you'll die. Retribution is my favorite pvp ship. ITs sturdy and packs ahell of a punch. Dont need a scrambler people die anyway. Granted a scrambler would be nice, but then you have the most overpowered frigate in the game. If you dont like it dont use it. Theres plenty of people who like it just the way it is.
Kharak'khan	Posted - 2005.11.24 12:40:00 - [41] The Retribution is a bit gimped for PVP, Set it up right though and its capable but slow, If your in a grouph use the mid slot for a Tech 2 burner, If your on your own stick a 20km warp scrambler on it, I grab stuff in the belts but a fast cruiser or frig is hard work! But takes out a slow cruiser or frig etc pretty easy. It tanks well and is a hard nut to ***** (just watch out for Nos). Taken out BC on my own get in close an beatem to death
LWMaverick	Posted - 2005.11.24 13:49:00 - [42] YaY 4th thread in a few days... ffs .... -> I <- Think its great. Fly it, try it, draw your own conclussion. insert flame here -> Packs a punch, vber tanks and can kill most if not any af's out there <- Insert flame here That was my oppinion.. i know im gonna get flammed... And people is always like OMGWTF"(ñ)="!(ñ=)!"(ñ="!ñ1111 ... 1 medslot ftl Ill say it again -> Fly it, try it, draw your own conclussion. Later girlies /Mav With great power, comes great responsibility.
Gunsnroses	Posted - 2005.11.25 06:40:00 - [43] Lw have my babies.

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