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Gnord Super Mining Bros - 3D 1	Posted - 2013.06.22 23:44:00 - [1] - Quote The core of the idea is this: Focus on the "cannot be trained on trial accounts" skills. You cannot undock with any ship or module that uses a no-trial-account skills. You cannot train while not paying. * That's it * If you attempt to undock, while piloting a battecruiser, mining barge, or industrial (or battleship, capital ship, siege module, etc), it fails and you stay docked. If any of these items are in your cargo hold, undocking fails. Obviously, there's a handful of exploits to get around this: Namely, you assemble your ship, transfer it to a friend, undock in a pod, and your friend undocks your ship. Why allow this? Basically, if you have a paying friend, your presence is improving your friend's experience. BUT, there's a lot of drawbacks to transferring a ship non-securely in space: Theft, Time, Irritation. Paying friends will be a limited supply, and this won't be doable en-masse. Second of all, you could be that friend: "I have your ship, pay me money or I'll keep it." :D Alliances and large organized groups will have an easier time of this: They have POS's and large numbers, and (paying) large ships to haul large fleets of ships and modules. Ok. Great. We need more people out playing "the real game" anyways. So, some people play for free. There will still need to be a lot of paying players out there, supplying those free-loaders. But otherwise, more people out in alliance conflicts is better for everyone. Discuss!
Gnord Super Mining Bros - 3D 1	Posted - 2013.06.22 23:48:00 - [2] - Quote I guess the skills will have to be renamed "Paid skills", since the concept of trial account will disappear. "Trial accounts" will work the same, just with a bit of free training on the front.
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 483	Posted - 2013.06.22 23:49:00 - [3] - Quote You seem to have forgotten about the army of marketeers and scammers who never undock. Other than that... no. Just... no. No no no no no no no. I can't even begin to explain - I don't think anyone can begin to explain how terribly and horribly ill-conceived any sort of "Free-to-Play" idea is. Also, expect someone to say "You can play for free with PLEX" before this thread is done. Someone other than myself, I mean. Encouraging and allowing exploits? Are you insane?
Gnord Super Mining Bros - 3D 1	Posted - 2013.06.22 23:51:00 - [4] - Quote Alvatore DiMarco wrote: You seem to have forgotten about the army of marketeers and scammers who never undock. Other than that... no. Just... no. No no no no no no no. I can't even begin to explain - I don't think anyone can begin to explain how terribly and horribly ill-conceived any sort of "Free-to-Play" idea is. Also, expect someone to say "You can play for free with PLEX" before this thread is done. Someone other than myself, I mean. Marketeers and scammers: Ok. So what? If they never undock, they don't use much by way of server/computer resources. And, they still consume money/wealth/etc out of the system. If it analyzed, and actually turns out to be bad, this addendum could be made: You can't post buy/sell orders while not paying. They can still buy/sell, but they can't post orders. Really? You think "ANY" free to play idea is bad? Obviously, it has to be a well-thought and well-executed idea. But saying "ALL" free to play ideas are bad is just not true. PLEX, sure. You have to work pretty hard to maintain that level of income though. I feel my idea is a bit better for the casual player, and tempting back lapsed players.
Little Dragon Khamez Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition 221	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:07:00 - [5] - Quote God no, ccp needs money, otherwise we can't enjoy eve. Freeplay mmos are rarely the quality of eve and have never lasted as long. Some things are worth paying for. Tiericide is tiers by another name.
Gnord Super Mining Bros - 3D 1	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:09:00 - [6] - Quote Little Dragon Khamez wrote: God no, ccp needs money, otherwise we can't enjoy eve. Freeplay mmos are rarely the quality of eve and have never lasted as long. Some things are worth paying for. It is quite possible to earn MORE money under a good microtransaction/free-to-play model. Granted, it must be done correctly. http://www.joystiq.com/2010/10/07/lord-of-the-rings-online-doubles-revenue-since-going-free-to-pla/ Since the game is already made, and is already gorgeous and high-quality, the real goal now is simply: More players.
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 485	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:14:00 - [7] - Quote "Maintaining that income keeps people from interacting" You make the assumption that the only way to make ISK is via solo activity. As much as I hate them, I present to you ... the Highsec Incursion Community. This is a group of drama quee- I mean.. people who have banded together into various different cliques- err, fleets that go around highsec getting into pointless fights over nothi- ...that is, they go around highsec as a group, earning hundreds of millions of ISK per hour in ships worth multiple billions of ISK. They each easily earn enough to PLEX their accounts, their alt accounts, their friends' accounts, their little sister's accounts and their dog's accounts while still being able to buy even more shinies for their shiny ships to earn even more ISK even faster. And.. microtransactions.. no. The only way a free-to-play can get people to buy microtransactions is by pay-to-win. Do you know what will happen if CCP even thinks about touching pay-to-win with a ten-foot pole held by someone else? I do. You're comparing EVE with games that are in no way similar to EVE and saying that EVE should do what they're doing. How exactly does that make sense?
Little Dragon Khamez Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition 221	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:17:00 - [8] - Quote Mt are a no go area in eve, we're not a pay to win game, do a search for 'jita riots' and find out for yourself why this will never be accepted by the majority of eve players. Tiericide is tiers by another name.
Gnord Super Mining Bros - 3D 1	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:20:00 - [9] - Quote Alvatore DiMarco wrote: " As much as I hate them, I present to you ... the Highsec Incursion Community. ...that is, they go around highsec as a group, earning hundreds of millions of ISK per hour in ships worth multiple billions of ISK. How often does that group have to dock/undock? Will they be anywhere NEAR as effective if they have to operate without that ability? As you said yourself, those are not ships that they could conveniently use under the restrictions I propose. So, they'll continue exactly as they do now. Playing for free by buying PLEX, and playing as a group. AWESOME! Maybe they grow in numbers by helping free players undock. Eventually, those free players are swimming in isk, and decide they will buy a plex for the convenience of being able to undock without help.
Gnord Super Mining Bros - 3D 1	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:25:00 - [10] - Quote Alvatore DiMarco wrote: " And.. microtransactions.. no. The only way a free-to-play can get people to buy microtransactions is by pay-to-win. Do you know what will happen if CCP even thinks about touching pay-to-win with a ten-foot pole held by someone else? I do. I'm not actually proposing microtransactions. My proposal is stated above. There's no microtransactions in it. BUT, the arguments for microtransactions are the same arguments for free-to-play. If you watch that video, or read the article, the key improvement that microtransactions give you is a Free-to-play option. Free-to-play is the key. You can do anything a normal player can, it's just less convenient to do so.
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 486	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:31:00 - [11] - Quote "Free-to-play is the key. You can do anything a normal player can, it's just less convenient to do so." No. Absolutely not. In the strongest possible terms, no. No, no, a thousand times no. Hell hath no fury like what will be witnessed if CCP even thinks of something like this. The massive rate of unsubs will be stuff of legend. The protests, the anger, the frothy-mouthed rage will make Incarna fade from memory by comparison. You play with fire, my friend, and you know not what you do.
Danika Princip Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team 1401	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:33:00 - [12] - Quote Gnord wrote: Alvatore DiMarco wrote: " And.. microtransactions.. no. The only way a free-to-play can get people to buy microtransactions is by pay-to-win. Do you know what will happen if CCP even thinks about touching pay-to-win with a ten-foot pole held by someone else? I do. I'm not actually proposing microtransactions. My proposal is stated above. There's no microtransactions in it. BUT, the arguments for microtransactions are the same arguments for free-to-play. If you watch that video, or read the article, the key improvement that microtransactions give you is a Free-to-play option. Free-to-play is the key. You can do anything a normal player can, it's just less convenient to do so. Infinite PI alts. Infinite cyno alts. Infinite mining alts. Infinite falcon alts. Why are any of those good?
Gnord Super Mining Bros - 3D 1	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:42:00 - [13] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: Infinite PI alts. Infinite cyno alts. Infinite mining alts. Infinite falcon alts. Why are any of those good? ALL planetary Interaction skills are restricted skills, already. Admittedly, that would require an additional rule. This is an oversight on my part, but an easily fixable one. The Rule: You can't interact with planets without paying. Cyno's are modules, and cyno's are a restricted skill. You have to actually get those alts undocked with those modules, which I feel is mostly, if not completely, addressed by my idea. Mining alt restrictions are already tested as being sufficient, since Mining Barge and other high end mining skills are restricted skills, and we don't see fleets of a million mining frigates running around right now. Falcon: Tech 2 ship. Restricted skill. Already covered.
Mr Doctor Los Polos Hermanos. Happy Cartel 7	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:44:00 - [14] - Quote F2P is a poison making games that have promise into jokes. I hope it's a fad that dies soon.
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 486	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:45:00 - [15] - Quote Logging off in space while in a restricted ship bypasses your checking for restrictions. This whole idea is so cumbersome and full of restrictions that I just don't know why you bothered. What is your ulterior motive for posting this? Drop the pretense, drop the attempt at defending it and just tell us straight-up the exact and true reason why you're suggesting EVE should have a free-to-play option.
Gnord Super Mining Bros - 3D 1	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:48:00 - [16] - Quote Mr Doctor wrote: F2P is a poison making games that have promise into jokes. I hope it's a fad that dies soon. Examples? Research? Random angry internet news-post? Even if you don't agree that it improves the game (Read my earlier links), the other argument is that, if done correctly, it earns MORE money for the makers of the game. As long as that's true, it's not a fad. Game development is expensive, and people like money. The only reason it will go away is if another, better money-making strategy is devised.
Gnord Super Mining Bros - 3D 1	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:55:00 - [17] - Quote Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Logging off in space while in a restricted ship bypasses your checking for restrictions. This whole idea is so cumbersome and full of restrictions that I just don't know why you bothered. What is your ulterior motive for posting this? Drop the pretense, drop the attempt at defending it and just tell us straight-up the exact and true reason why you're suggesting EVE should have a free-to-play option. Not really. You will eventually need to dock. Or get blown up. If you can stay out in space, without any of these things, good on you. Grats, you are awesome. Ok, The things I PERSONALLY want: 1. Improve one of my favorite games? 2. Bring more friends to play that game with me? 3. I have multiple accounts. I could probably reduce that to 2 paying accounts under this scheme. The last one I think is trivial compared to the potential to bring in lots of players. Let me ask you this: Would you give up the convenience of undocking in your favorite ship, just to save a few bucks each month? I imagine your answer is no. Some players with many accounts will pay for fewer of them (in my estimate, probably half) . But many players who previously wouldn't play, will be drawn in, and even some of those will start paying or buying plex. I think that more than makes up for it.
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 622	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:57:00 - [18] - Quote Gnord wrote: The core of the idea is this: Focus on the "cannot be trained on trial accounts" skills. masses of free scouts \o/ dont need any skill I guess you would need a "allowed for trial" flag on skills because the set of skills which arent abusable for something with free unlimited trial will be very low.
Gnord Super Mining Bros - 3D 1	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:57:00 - [19] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: Gnord wrote: The core of the idea is this: Focus on the "cannot be trained on trial accounts" skills. masses of free scouts \o/ dont need any skill Uhm... how is that any different than trial accounts now?
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 622	Posted - 2013.06.23 00:59:00 - [20] - Quote Gnord wrote: Uhm... how is that any different than trial accounts now? you cant run a trial client together with non-trials in the same time logged in.
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 487	Posted - 2013.06.23 01:01:00 - [21] - Quote Trial accounts are time-limited and using them as scouts is a bannable breach of TOS. They specifically have a rule against using trial accounts to further the ingame activities of your main account. Your idea would mean permanent free scouts for everyone forever. As well as masses of multiboxed alts flying masses of super-disposable rookie ships. I'll tell you who else loves free-to-play. Botters and RMT companies. Zero investment to start making buckets of ISK.
Gnord Super Mining Bros - 3D 1	Posted - 2013.06.23 01:02:00 - [22] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: Gnord wrote: Uhm... how is that any different than trial accounts now? you cant run a trial client together with non-trials in the same time logged in. Hnmmm, interesting... Honestly, by KEEPING that restriction... you are satisfied, and that brings all the more incentive for people to pay.
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 622	Posted - 2013.06.23 01:05:00 - [23] - Quote Gnord wrote: Robert Caldera wrote: Gnord wrote: Uhm... how is that any different than trial accounts now? you cant run a trial client together with non-trials in the same time logged in. Hnmmm, interesting... Honestly, by KEEPING that restriction... you are satisfied, and that brings all the more incentive for people to pay. so you would play a game with a single trial character forever, whic cant do this and that and all things which are fun a pretty limited eve experience IMO, what activities would YOU personally wish such F2P version for?
Gnord Super Mining Bros - 3D 1	Posted - 2013.06.23 01:05:00 - [24] - Quote Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Trial accounts are time-limited and using them as scouts is a bannable breach of TOS. They specifically have a rule against using trial accounts to further the ingame activities of your main account. Your idea would mean permanent free scouts for everyone forever. As well as masses of multiboxed alts flying masses of super-disposable rookie ships. I'll tell you who else loves free-to-play. Botters and RMT companies. Zero investment to start making buckets of ISK. As Robert Caldera pointed out, you CURRENTLY cannot connect a trial account if there is another connection. I didn't know about that restriction, but since it's already there... It also addresses your concern. You CAN'T have unlimited scouts, or bots, or massive fleets of disposable alts, because you'd only be able to connect with one unpaid account if no other accounts are logged in from your location.
Gnord Super Mining Bros - 3D 1	Posted - 2013.06.23 01:12:00 - [25] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: Gnord wrote: Robert Caldera wrote: Gnord wrote: Uhm... how is that any different than trial accounts now? you cant run a trial client together with non-trials in the same time logged in. Hnmmm, interesting... Honestly, by KEEPING that restriction... you are satisfied, and that brings all the more incentive for people to pay. so you would play a game with a single trial character forever, which cant do this and that and all fun things - a pretty limited eve experience IMO, what ingame activities would YOU personally wish such F2P version for? You might be right. It may be that this is TOO restrictive for the experienced player, and they will want to pay for EVERY account. If that is true, then it seems like that is a good thing. The game can still be marketed as Free-to-play. You can TECHNICALLY do anything, and everything that a paying player can do, without paying. But, in practice, it's cumbersome and time-consuming, and you're better off paying. Isn't that the IDEAL description of a Free-to-play game? You play as long as you want, for free, until you get hooked, and pay for the conveniences available by paying for the game? And, again, for somebody who is willing to live within the restrictions, or must... They can still play, for as long as they want.
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 622	Posted - 2013.06.23 01:15:00 - [26] - Quote Gnord wrote: If that is true, then it seems like that is a good thing. The game can still be marketed as Free-to-play. You can TECHNICALLY do anything, and everything that a paying player can do, without paying. But, in practice, it's cumbersome and time-consuming, and you're better off paying. this is already this way. If you invest enough time into earning ISK, you can buy 30d PLEX (ingame time) for ISK and dont need to spend any real money on that.
Gnord Super Mining Bros - 3D 1	Posted - 2013.06.23 01:19:00 - [27] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: this is already this way. If you invest enough time into earning ISK, you can buy 30d PLEX (ingame time) for ISK and dont need to spend any real money on that. As I mentioned though, that's geared towards players with a LOT of time to devote to the game, and in particular, their activities have to be profit-oriented. This is a F2P model that lets people play in alliance warfare, or other ways that aren't so devoted to earning isk. It's better for the casual player, who only logs on once a week, it's better for alliance warfare, it's better for almost everything, EXCEPT those super-profit activites like mining and missioning. And, they already have thieir F2P model: Plex. Let's focus on some people we WANT in the game, not the ones who have already got a free ride.
Omnathious Deninard The Scope Gallente Federation 1204	Posted - 2013.06.23 01:20:00 - [28] - Quote Just make it skill point based, it is free to play for the first 659,874 skill points. After that you have to pay. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious
Gnord Super Mining Bros - 3D 1	Posted - 2013.06.23 01:23:00 - [29] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: Gnord wrote: Uhm... how is that any different than trial accounts now? you cant run a trial client together with non-trials in the same time logged in. Yep. We just discussed that a few posts back. Let's keep that. Problem solved.
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 622	Posted - 2013.06.23 01:25:00 - [30] - Quote but you still ignored my question for an example for what a F2P player should be able to do in your view.

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