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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1627
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Posted - 2013.06.25 12:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Are allegations of Gallente "imperialist arrogance" a result of Minmatar extremist politics as encapsulated by pilot Havohej, or is it vice versa?
Either way, if the we are cultural imperialists, we have done mightily terrible job of it, given how vibrant and rich Minmatar culture is.
I'd politely suggest that if both Matari and Caldari are levelling that accusation, it might well be an accusation worth taking seriously. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1628
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Posted - 2013.06.25 12:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
The question then is: whence come these accusations?
Whether or not you find them hard to rationalize, they exist, and I would suggest that it's in the Federation's interest to take them seriously if nothing else so that you can determine their origin and address it. If you're being wrongly accused, striking at the root of the injustice will end it more effectively than thrashing at the branches. If on the other hand you're being rightly accused, then learning as much and understanding the grievance will be invaluable.
I don't see the Federation being harmed by either scenario. The harmful scenario would be if the allegations were justified, but were arrogantly ignored. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1628
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Posted - 2013.06.25 13:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Derin Phobos wrote:Surely, Mr. Stitcher, you would agree that claims of cultural imperialism by the Gallente hardly merit slaughtering thousands of their military personnel? It is not as if the entire Minmatar race and culture is tied to the Federation, as the Caldari once were. They are a sovereign nation and should act as such, which include not launching an invasion over vague accusations of "they talk down to us" and "they do not respect us like they should."
Whatever the justification (or lack thereof) for the Colelie incident may be, the conversation is a valid one to have independent of it. It's entirely possible to disentangle a good subject of discussion from the context of the events that originally gave rise to it. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1628
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Posted - 2013.06.25 14:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Andrea Okazon wrote:What reasoning, exactly, are we meant to employ in dealing with such a person?
You're not. You're meant to employ reasoning with the people who are reasonable.
Disentangle the conversation and have it, it's a valid one to have. The whys, wherefores and consequences of Colelie are one conversation. The question of whether or not the Federation respects the Matari and is content to leave the Tribes to chart their own course is another. The latter may have springboarded off the former, but it's a subject that can be discussed on its own, I think.
And if somebody tries to kill you, you try and kill them right back. That's the way of the world.
Derin Phobos wrote:Now would hardly be the right time to address that topic,
When would be? An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1633
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Posted - 2013.06.25 14:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:In any case, I don't see why you're here tossing little snarky throw-away lines into a discussion which is intended to be by-and-for citizens of the Federation. I have taken pains to try and keep Federation citizens out of Havohej's discussion, after all. I would have hoped the same courtesy would be extended to this one.
"Federation citizens, let's talk about the Republic"
"Republic citizens, let's talk about the Federation."
May I propose a novel idea?
"Federation and Republic citizens, let's talk to each other." An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1633
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Posted - 2013.06.25 15:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
I see no reason why these things can't be done concurrently, nor indeed do I see any reason why the discussion couldn't lead to a reconciliation.
There's no such thing as an "appropriate time" for a conversation, pilot, with the possible exception of "right now." An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1633
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Posted - 2013.06.25 15:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Your analogy isn't just crude, it's useless. We're not in a courtroom here. We're in the real world, where multiple things are capable of being discussed simultaneously because there is no arbiter of justice with limited attention to appeal to. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1634
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Posted - 2013.06.25 15:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Whether or not the allegations of Federal arrogance are warranted is an important question in and of its own right, and a conversation worth having in and of its own right. There is no good reason - none - why that conversation cannot be concurrent with the one about Colelie.
Indeed, if such really was the root cause of the battle, then one possible avenue for the Federation to secure an apology would be for them to address the allegations against their character and absolve themselves. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1634
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Posted - 2013.06.25 16:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:Here's the thing with that attitude.
If any race in the cluster could be called xenophobic, it's the Caldari. (Note phrasing: I'm not saying they are xenophobic, just that they come pretty damn close sometimes). They're insular, the Napaani language is inherently biased against foreigners... and then there's the fact that the State is extremely structured, conservative, and oh yes, has a colossal grudge against the Federation. This is an entity that isn't going to take cultural influence from anyone kindly, and certainly not from the Federation.
Meanwhile, the Minmatar are trying to recover from a pretty long time under the very real cultural domination of the Amarrians. That's a situation that will put anyone on the defensive - and the Matari are a pretty strong-willed race to begin with, so a natural tendency to be dubious about someone else's ideas has been magnified a thousandfold.
Since I'm on the topic, the Amarrian Empire is defined by its culture and the belief that everyone should have that culture, so anyone else's ideas can go screw themselves.
I'm not saying Gallentean 'cultural imperialism' is a myth. I'm just pointing out that everyone else in a position to comment on it is naturally massively biased.
Granted, but you can't assume bias, and in fact bias doesn't necessarily invalidate the position. If all the other cars are coming towards you, sounding their horns and flashing their lights, you might naturally conclude that they're biased and you'd be right about that... but you'd still be on the wrong side of the highway.
The point is, take the allegations seriously, treat them with the respect they deserve. If the respect they deserve is to be dismissed after a thorough demolition job, then fair enough. Bias is a factor you have to be aware of and account for in your reasoning, not an excuse never to embark on the process of reasoning in the first place. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1634
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Posted - 2013.06.25 16:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
A) On what grounds do you disagree? What good reason is there that the conversation about attitude cannot be concurrent with the one about the battle at Colelie?
and B) Please specify exactly where, and what, the flaw in my reasoning is.
Whether or not the Republic owes the Federation an apology is a very different matter to whether or not they are persuaded that they do. As I said, this isn't a courtroom where an arbiter of justice will hand down judgement. If the Federation wants that apology and any remuneration that goes with it, then they will receive it only if the Republic is both persuaded that it is owed and also feels obligated to honour that debt.
Having the conversation about arrogance and attitudes etc. is a potential gambit the persuasion side of things. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1634
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Posted - 2013.06.25 16:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Derin Phobos wrote:You are assuming the the Federation wants to persuade the Republic, Mr. Stitcher. That is the flaw in your reasoning, and why I disagree.
Stitcher wrote:If the Federation wants that apology...
The word "if" has a very specific meaning, pilot.
Quote:If the Republic does not inherently understand the severity of their actions and how that undermines any legitimate claims they may have against the Federation, then a severe myopia on their part is revealed. There is no value in an "ally" that seeks to invade and slaughter your citizens because they feel slighted, Mr. Stitcher.
There would, however, be value in persuading them to realise the existence of said hypothetical myopia. You have to be aware of a problem before you seek to correct it. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1634
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Posted - 2013.06.25 16:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
A valid concern, and my thanks for the reminder. I'll butt out. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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