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Jin Entres
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Posted - 2005.11.30 00:12:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Denrace
Judging by those insanely fantastic stats, CCP should up the skill requirements to HAC V or something.
I dread the day everyone flies around in one of these. It will remove the point of flying in anything but a T2 BC.
Im sad to say this, but HACs are no longer top of the line and, hopefully, this will bring their price right down 
*cough* Having just done the calculations for the training I personally need for the Astarte, I beg to disagree:
I have a charisma of 24,84 and willpower 19 (+2 implants on both). It will take me 35 days to train Leadership V (now at IV) and Squadron Command V (from scratch).
It will also take me close to 40 days to train Battlecruisers V, and lest not forget that I already have HAC skills.
For comparison, training to be able to pilot a dreadnought requires racial battleship V and advanced spaceship command V, which combined take less time to train than the abovementioned skills required for the T2 Battlecruisers (assuming same level of prerequisite skills to start with).
Of course the comparison is not completely reliable as it takes a lot more to pilot a dread properly (mainly jump drives, capital guns, defenses and the siege module), but in my opinion it clearly demonstrates the amount of specialization and investment required, especially when not everyone is born with 12 charisma, nor can you pilot a ship with only the mandatory skills to sit on the captain's seat.
So, in short: no, the skill requirements are fine. We won't be seeing these ships around every gate for a long long time.
There's my .07 kredits.
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Shira d'Radonis
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Posted - 2005.11.30 00:17:00 -
[62]
Of course, CCP did already screw over the people who were born with high willpower for the purpose of attaining leadership skills... now only four of the skills uses willpower as a primary attribute... sooo willpower went from being a major attribute for leaders to... merchants? Huh?
Let's also remember the time it'll take to properly train up the warfare links as well. I'd say the amount of skills they have so far makes good sense.
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ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö
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VossKarr
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Posted - 2005.11.30 00:21:00 -
[63]
Originally by: j0sephine
Edited by: j0sephine on 29/11/2005 22:33:41
"The fact of the matter is: the Nighthawk, being a missile ship (0-70km damage) with those bonuses, will be much more difficult to tackle than any turret ship, Eagle included. It'll basically be an interceptor-pwn-mobile."
Yes, which is the very reason i don't understand what's so exciting about it. The queue of interceptor-pwn-mobiles is already long, and there's brand new class of ships designed for exactly that, about to be added to the game.
Notice the description "Field Command" ... it's designed to get down and dirty, up close and personal along with all the combat ships under your command. What's so bad about a ship that is this survivable (all the anti-ceptor ships you mentioned aren't as good in that by a long shot) and can kick both inty and non-inty ass alike?
If i wanted to pwn interceptors then the field command gang support ship as slow as battle-cruiser, with ages-long list of skills to train for it... would be likely one of the least I'd pick. It's literally like hunting flies with barrage artillery. :<
Really, who cares how slow this ship is? Its main weapons are fast enough to get the job done, and that's all that matters. Its ability to protect larger ships against the smaller ones is golden to me. What may seem misguided (another term for useless?)
to you may be great to somebody else (me), and who are you (or me) to decide what's good for everybody?
"Plus, with heavy missiles(launchers) being boosted and with damage bonus to all missiles, basically no HAC or other ship with specific resistances will be safe. 
Single 25% damage bonus means the performance equal to that of Cerberus when she's not using kinetic missiles (which get the damage bonus in addition to regular rof bonus) ... meaning, the kind of damage output that any ship post-RMR tanks easily. (and the very same post-RMR tanking means basically no weak resistance spots to exploit)
The Nighthawk has 6 launcher and 1 turret slots as opposed to Cerberus' 5 and 1 utility.
"Which means I'm dropping whatever I've been training and starting BC5.  "
Well, good luck i guess. it's good at least someone will enjoy this misguided idea for field command ship o.O;
Don't worry. I'm not going to focus on that particular ship. Once I train the core skills for one, I'm pretty much trained for all (cept 4 for cruiser 5 I guess, but I have had Cal Cruiser 5 for a looong time, so no training time lost there)
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Amthrianius
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Posted - 2005.11.30 00:23:00 -
[64]
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.11.30 01:02:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Shira d'Radonis
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Hm.
Some of the bonuses seem to be fixed and some per level..can't really believe a 40km web range on a cruiser tbh..
But, if that's the case and it's just 40%, why not just make it 10% per level rather than a one-time bonus of 40%?
First-pass ship descriptions, as Oveur noted probly. I hope.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.11.30 01:31:00 -
[66]
Edited by: j0sephine on 30/11/2005 01:33:42
"What's so bad about a ship that is this survivable (all the anti-ceptor ships you mentioned aren't as good in that by a long shot) and can kick both inty and non-inty ass alike?"
I dunno; it's probably disappointment with getting yet another Caldari ship for which the main combat focus is shooting support. When i read the field battlecruisers are supposed to be some mean firepower fiends, i sort of expected to get that, a mean firepower fiend with some light gang support abilities. Not a Ferox capable of hitting frigates for bit more damage
('bit more' because at 85 m explosion radius and 1.7 km/sec explosion velocity you still ain't going to hit them for that much -- the bonus results in dealing ~20% of heavy missile damage to mwd'ing inty, instead of 5% ... which translates to ~50 hp per missile before resistances kick in, or ~5 dps per launcher)
"Really, who cares how slow this ship is?"
Usually the rest of gang you're tagging with ^^ bring your fat-ass vessel into a group of HACs and frigates, and see how much they'll enjoy it. Of course, if you're going with group of battleships then it's not big deal, but the battleship velocity (or lack thereof) is about main reason why so many people prefer to leave them at the station nowadays.
"The Nighthawk has 6 launcher and 1 turret slots as opposed to Cerberus' 5 and 1 utility."
Yes, but it's also supposed to be gang support ship, and these modules take high slots. Expecting at least 2-3 of these high slots to be taken by said gang mods, so you can switch (or maybe use all) types of support your group could use... is not unreasonable.
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KamiCrazy
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Posted - 2005.11.30 01:35:00 -
[67]
The nighthawk needs one of its non-dmg missle bonuses changed.
It fills a niche that is highly unsuitable for a ship of its type. Especially once you consider that it uses heavy missle launchers.
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.11.30 01:40:00 -
[68]
lol by the time the current hac people are done skilling for the t2 BC CCP will bring out the t2 BSes making everyone go omgwow and chase the shiny stuff. Those who train only in the prereqs will have 1.5 million skillpoints stuck in squadron command giving 0 bonuses at all. Whereas all the other t2 ship prereqs usually help in general for any ship, ie. wpn upgrades 5, squadron command only applies when your using gang mods.
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Shira d'Radonis
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Posted - 2005.11.30 02:10:00 -
[69]
For someone like me who happened to be training squad command anyway (and is 3 days from completion), I've no complaints :)
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ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.11.30 02:44:00 -
[70]
I'm done with squadron command 5 and hac 4... BC 5 finishes in 2 weeks... so no complaints here either :P logistics 4 on the other hand adds another 15 days to skill training time but meh w/e. Balanced stats 4tw.
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Ante
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Posted - 2005.11.30 04:33:00 -
[71]
Looking forward to being able to instantly drop a bubble on a small fleet, get some 40km web ships in there to web them and sit afar with your sniper ships... Almost like shooting fish in a pond.
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Guapo Suave
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Posted - 2005.11.30 05:06:00 -
[72]
Originally by: SengH
I'm done with squadron command 5 and hac 4... BC 5 finishes in 2 weeks... so no complaints here either :P logistics 4 on the other hand adds another 15 days to skill training time but meh w/e. Balanced stats 4tw.
 The ships won't even be out before you finish.
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Officially Mars Vigilia news correspondent. |
Jokastis
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Posted - 2005.11.30 05:35:00 -
[73]
I'm sorry...
Where are you guys finding the stats on these ships?
Sisi?
Website?
If there is a website can you list it please??
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.11.30 05:41:00 -
[74]
Their on sisi market atm
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.11.30 07:25:00 -
[75]
updated so you can actually see all the relevant stats.
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Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2005.11.30 07:52:00 -
[76]
Looks fun, but:
Quote:
Eos: Command Ships Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in CPU need of Drone Control Units
does not quite make sense with a puny 50 m3 drone bay. Maybe some rethinking is in order here?
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.11.30 07:54:00 -
[77]
If you take a close look youll notice inconstencies and off numbers and stuff.
Obviously the figures arent even finished yet, let alone close to final.
For example, many Field and Fleet ships have the exact same HP and cap, when obv a khanid ship would usually have less armor and more shields than a crthum one.
Also, some are still missing some slots.
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Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.11.30 08:38:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Pottsey on 30/11/2005 08:39:24
öZealot [60/80/62.5/35]
Absolution [60/70/53.12/35]
Damnation [60/80/62.5/35]
(EDIT: above numbers without gang assit)
So basically, the combat command ship (field command ship) has resists lower then a hac, and the group command ship has same resistsö
Now add on the ship bonus as you cannot fly the ships without the bonus.
Zealot [60/80/62.5/35] (HAC)
Absolution [70/77.5/ 64.9/51.2](Field Command Ship)
Damnation [60/85/71.9/51.2](Fleet Command)
I donÆt know about you, but to me both the field and fleet command appear to have better resistanceÆs then that HAC your comparing them to. Not worse resistance and it looks even worse for the HAC if you compare gang assist with the ships bonusÆs. So I stand by what I say all of the Fleet command and half of the Field Command have better then HAC resistance. The 2 ships that dont still have decent resistance with gang assit.
ôSo, in short: no, the skill requirements are fine. We won't be seeing these ships around every gate for a long long time.ö
DonÆt forget some of us are leadership based pilots. Last count there was only about 700 of us but we are out there. Myself and a few others do have Leadership 5, Squadron Command 5, BC 5 and the advanced leaderships skills at 5.
Sure it takes a while for a combat pilot to fly these ships but they are not meant for combat people. The people the ships are meant for donÆt have a problem with training as they already have the skills.
P.S I wonder how many people forget to add these ships to there scanners. Or will the patch auto tick the box so they are listed.
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Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you. |
keepiru
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Posted - 2005.11.30 08:43:00 -
[79]
Psh.
I'm no leadership pilot, and i dont intend to train any other leadership skill apart from the 2 required to fly a CC.
Good for you if you have it, but dont go assuming theyre designed for the current leadership pilots, cause they aint.
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Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.11.30 08:48:00 -
[80]
they don't have a lot of grid...
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.11.30 08:56:00 -
[81]
Edited by: keepiru on 30/11/2005 08:58:01
Originally by: HippoKing
they don't have a lot of grid...
Wha?
7 Heavy Neutron II + 10MN MWD II + Med Injector II + Med rep II with no grid mods aint much grid?
If anything, most of them give solid grounds for a hac grid boost argument.
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Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.11.30 09:07:00 -
[82]
ôGood for you if you have it, but dont go assuming theyre designed for the current leadership pilots, cause they aint.ö
How do you work that one out? They are designed for us leadership pilots. Not only do they need advanced leadership skills to fly but they have bonusÆs to the amount of advanced leadership modules you can fit and bonusÆs to the advanced leadership modules. They even talk about leadership modules on the ships text.
I really dont see how someone can say these are not for current leadership pilots.
_________________________________________________
Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you. |
SengH
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Posted - 2005.11.30 09:07:00 -
[83]
Originally by: keepiru
Psh.
I'm no leadership pilot, and i dont intend to train any other leadership skill apart from the 2 required to fly a CC.
Good for you if you have it, but dont go assuming theyre designed for the current leadership pilots, cause they aint.
Thats 1.5 Mil SP that will have 0 effect at all on your ship. Besides just being a requirement to fly it. If your a low charisma character the time you spend to get it, you can easily have other more useful skills such as adv wpn upgrades 5 or BS 5 and be in line for T2 BSes when they come out. What will be interesting to see if a Gang assist boosted HAC with the correct gang assist boosts will be able to take down a Field command BC.
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.11.30 09:08:00 -
[84]
Well, seeing as i am gallente, low charisma is the very least of my attribute problems.
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Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.11.30 09:10:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Pottsey
ôGood for you if you have it, but dont go assuming theyre designed for the current leadership pilots, cause they aint.ö
How do you work that one out? They are designed for us leadership pilots. Not only do they need advanced leadership skills to fly but they have bonusÆs to the amount of advanced leadership modules you can fit and bonusÆs to the advanced leadership modules. They even talk about leadership modules on the ships text.
I really dont see how someone can say these are not for current leadership pilots.
Theyre designed to give people leadership ships good enough so that other people apart from a few leadership monomaniac nutjobs will want to train for said leadership skills.
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Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.11.30 09:14:00 -
[86]
Edited by: SengH on 30/11/2005 09:17:01
Edited by: SengH on 30/11/2005 09:14:47
Originally by: keepiru
Well, seeing as i am gallente, low charisma is the very least of my attribute problems.
With the new NPC changes it remains to be seen if these will help the missionrunners... with the nossing NPCs if you dont have cap to run the tank/hardeners your still screwed along with the TD/sensor dampening/jamming NPCs. Also the cost of these will probably be 2-3x the BS cost with probably half the payout of a BS. It would still be much more efficent to use a BS for most things rather than a t2 BC. Furthermore any ewar spec ship will shut you down and eat you for lunch in pvp due to their relatively low sensor strength. The beauty however is that you can run gang mods while jammed, so thus it doesnt matter as your primary function which should be deploying gang bonuses is still occuring.
Edit: Ewar filled midslot BSes seem to be the way to go now with mixxed multispecs till ECCMs catch on then TDs/Damps.
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.11.30 09:17:00 -
[87]
Primary function in a fleet ship, primary function in a field is dealing a shedload of damage, imo.
But thats irrelevent, really. Im training for one cause i want the field cyclone, y'all do w/e you wants.
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Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.11.30 09:20:00 -
[88]
Originally by: keepiru
Primary function in a fleet ship, primary function in a field is dealing a shedload of damage, imo.
But thats irrelevent, really. Im training for one cause i want the field cyclone, y'all do w/e you wants.
The low # of lowslots is the cyclone chassis's undoing.. that and its low sensor strength is its main flaw. In the current TQ world, discounting the presence of ewar is often fatal.
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.11.30 09:26:00 -
[89]
Edited by: keepiru on 30/11/2005 09:27:20
5 lows?
3x Gyro II, DC II, and Sensor Backup II? dont sound bad to me...
Its not perfect, but its no different from a vaga, and that's hardly a bad ship..
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Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.11.30 09:34:00 -
[90]
Originally by: keepiru
Edited by: keepiru on 30/11/2005 09:27:20
5 lows?
3x Gyro II, DC II, and Sensor Backup II? dont sound bad to me...
Its not perfect, but its no different from a vaga, and that's hardly a bad ship..
1. you dont have the speed of a vaga to get away if things go wrong... (Key point)
2. if your using Artys , TDs will shut you down VERY fast, if your using ACs you'll have to gimp your tank to fit the mwd
3. your going to be primary flying a 200-300mil ship rather than a BS (same reason why faction ships get called primarys)
4. For those who use em, no space to put WCS
Other points to note
1. can you fit 7x 720IIs without any grid/cpu mods? seems highly unlikely, not quite sure though.
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