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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2005.12.01 13:50:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 01/12/2005 13:50:56
 Originally by: Sarkos
Edited by: Sarkos on 01/12/2005 13:42:38
Well Rodj we both know that slavers still raid Minmatar space to procure new slaves, and since the Amarr Empire seem unconcerned with this crime, we feel it nessessary to retrieve them. If we happen to free some slaves born in Amarr space, well accidents happen. :)
Sarkos
We both know that slaves raided from Minmatar space account for only a tiny proportion of slaves in the Empire.
The necessity for such raids would decrease sharply were it not for the need to replace slaves stolen and killed by terrorists such as yourself.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.12.01 14:58:00 -
[62]
Since when do we give two isks what slavers think?
We go into Amarr space, we kill slavers and we return our people home.
That is what we do.
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Just a simple warrior.
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2005.12.01 15:08:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
Since when do we give two isks what slavers think?
We go into Amarr space, we kill slavers and we return our people home.
That is what we do.
Thank you for that unambiguous confirmation that you are a bunch of terrorists.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.12.01 15:15:00 -
[64]
response to your opnion:
Bothered?
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Just a simple warrior.
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Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2005.12.01 16:04:00 -
[65]
Does the republic now claim that it acts in the behalf of all Matari everywhere?
I really dont care less about the U'Ks opinion on any of this, but the development of Insorium only seems useful if EM intends to push the republic towards a pan-matarism policy as opposed to simply protecting its own borders.
Is this indeed what is planned here?
God is with us. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
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Posted - 2005.12.01 16:09:00 -
[66]
I doubt EM is "pushing the Republic" anywhere. Neither can I speak for EM in general - I hold no official power there.
But this I can say for myself, Amarr: there's people under your rule that are tribe-kin to us, and to many of us even more, clan and family. If you seriously expect us to have forgotten that or to forever leave them in slavery, you are more fool than I had assumed.
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.12.01 16:19:00 -
[67]
The Republic was formed in the fires of the rebellion, it is high time its goverment remembered from whence it came.
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Just a simple warrior.
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Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2005.12.01 16:34:00 -
[68]
So if Elsebeth was running policy, then the answer would be:
"Yes the Matari people all are subjects to the Republic whether or not they live inside the republic"?
Of course I know that the republic itself is more intellegent than this, but it is useful to know where the EM stands.
The Ushra'khan have long stated that they are warmongers and terrorists, but it is a pity to see the EM join them in the former of these stances.
I hope that I am mistaken in this understanding of the EM's policy; it would be a shame to have such a promising pro-republic group turn out to be no better than the warmongers of the U'K.
God is with us. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
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Posted - 2005.12.01 16:38:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 01/12/2005 16:38:35
Quote:
So if Elsebeth was running policy, then the answer would be: "Yes the Matari people all are subjects to the Republic whether or not they live inside the republic"?
The Minmatar Republic is an association of certain tribes. Members of those tribes are in spirit and should by all laws, including yours, citizens of that Republic. Anyone with half a brain can figure that out.
The time will come.
This will not tell you where EM stands, however. I am not the policy-maker for EM, and not even one of them.
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75jp
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Posted - 2005.12.01 16:45:00 -
[70]
Edited by: 75jp on 01/12/2005 16:46:08
Why not use this as a weapon?
Why not try to kill as many amarr as possible?
if there is no slavers their can be no slaves!
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Dev Larren
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Posted - 2005.12.01 18:04:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Sarkos
Sarkos reads the GalNet and smiles a relaxed and relieved smile.
To the Caldari insisting this sample is the property of the Caldari state, I wish to point out that it was recovered from the wreckage of a Caldari destroyed ship, in Minmatar space. The attackers left it, thus under intergalactic and CONCORD SALVAGE laws, it belongs to the finder. That would be the Ushra'Khan. You hold claim to the formula, but not this sample. Check with your litigators and you will find this is true.
Now I call upon CONCORD to enforce this law of salvage and assure the Insorum sample we salvaged is not set upon by those that falsely claim it.
Sarkos
I assume you are basing this interpretation of the law on ancient customs of salvage at sea in an age before space-flight in which case your argument is fatally flawed. Laws of salvage are based on the concept that there should be just reward to a rescuer who imperils themselves or incurs cost in order to secure the property of someone. It does not give them ownership of the property.
Full ownership of salvaged goods to those that salvage it only occurs when no owner can be identified. In this case it is well-known who owns the property.
In this case the stolen property should be returned to the rightful owner - which is the Caldari argument you have chosen to dismiss with your flawed legal argument - but the salvagers are then entitled to compensation from the rightful owner. I am sure they could pursue that with the Chief Executive Panel.
In any case you cannot use "Laws Of Salvage" to make a Minmatar claim. That just strengthens our hand. Best hit the books and try again.
Commanding Officer
Channel: CAINCOM |
Biggus Tankus
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Posted - 2005.12.01 21:53:00 -
[72]
The holoscreen activates showing a hastily put together conference room
To answer Gaven, we are NOT warmongers. We (-EM-) feel that developing insornum will benefit all those people who suffer from Vitoc dependancy. We will never develop insornum as a weapon. This idea is simply ridiculous. We do not want to cause misery and strife through biological weapons. We stand alongside Ushra'Khan trying to develop insornum as a cure. Together maybe, possibly we can finally free those inside the Republic who suffer from Vitoc dependancy. Niether do we wish to expand the Republic borders. We are here to strengthen what we have. Nothing more. But lets get one thing straight. Although we are for the Republic it doesn't always mean we support Midulars policies and while she remains quiet we have decided to make it Republic business.
To anyone else who think U'K and -EM- are handling stolen goods are welcome to come and take it. If they can.
May the light of Matar shine on all.
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Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2005.12.01 22:11:00 -
[73]
Are any of those people who suffer Vitoc problems not officially Amarran property Biggus?
I guess more importantly does EM consider all matari to be citizens of the republic the way Elsebeth suggests?
God is with us. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
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Posted - 2005.12.01 22:15:00 -
[74]
Gaven Lok'ri, you are mixing up two things here, namely Republic citizenship and a membership in a tribe that belongs to the Republic. Latter does not imply first, yet - but it should.
Still talking only for myself, of course.
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Biggus Tankus
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Posted - 2005.12.01 22:22:00 -
[75]
Whether they were Amarrian 'property' or not is of no concern to myself or others. When we recieve them they are Matari that is all that counts. As to whether all Matari are Republican citizens then my answer has to be no. But we are of the same blood whether divide by tribe or location. Those held in Amarr are in spirit and body Matari if not residing in Republic space itself.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/FittyUK/BTSig.jpg |
Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.12.01 22:35:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
The Ushra'khan have long stated that they are warmongers and terrorists, but it is a pity to see the EM join them in the former of these stances.
We have never stated that for it is not true. We are fighters for enslaved peoples freedom. That is all we ever have been and all we ever will be.
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Just a simple warrior.
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Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2005.12.01 22:59:00 -
[77]
Really Khaldorn?
That is not what I have heard in the past.
It was my impression that the U'K wished the republic to declaring war on the Amarr Empire and that Midular was a pansy for not doing so. Is this not correct?
As the definition of Warmonger is: "One who advocates or attempts to stir up war", I do believe that the U'K is most definitely a group that qualifies for the title with their incessant attempts to pressure other matari into violent attacks on Amarr, and the fact that their members vocally wish war to exist between the Republic and the Empire.
God is with us. |
Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2005.12.01 23:06:00 -
[78]
To Biggus:
I would argue that race has nothing to do with matters of state. Religious history yes, but pure race no. Any attempt by the republic to claim that all matari everywhere are somehow under the protection of the republic is by default attempting to worsten relations between the Republic and the Empire.
I would request that in the interests of a continued Pax Amarria that the Republic's supporters should back off on such an antagonistic stance towards the Empire lest their antagonism strengthen the position of the Amarran hawk party as well as their own.
God is with us. |
Safid Gorbet
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Posted - 2005.12.01 23:26:00 -
[79]
This whole situation would have never come about if Vitoc was never created in the first place. You reap what you sow Amarr.
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Sarkos
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Posted - 2005.12.02 00:55:00 -
[80]
Quote:
The Ushra'khan have long stated that they are warmongers and terrorists, but it is a pity to see the EM join them in the former of these stances.
I hope that I am mistaken in this understanding of the EM's policy; it would be a shame to have such a promising pro-republic group turn out to be no better than the warmongers of the U'K.
Rodj, thanks for the laugh. This coming from an Amarr, the people who swallowed up, oh, how many cultures? How can an Amarr call anyone in this universe a warmonger considering the history of the Amarr Empire?
Either free the slaves or we will come and get them.
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Rocius
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Posted - 2005.12.02 02:10:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 30/11/2005 12:22:47
With this announcement, the Electus Matari, for a long time a voice of restraint from within the Republic, have permanently marked themselves as enemies of the Amarrian way of life.
I urge all those who may deal with the EM to cease doing so with immediate effect.
We are still the voice that we have always been Rodj. This announcment in no way changes our core principles and beliefs. What we are offering to do has nothing to do with the Amarrian way of life, just the Matari quality of life.
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Have you forgotten Mabnen so quickly?
Even if the EM and UK are telling the truth when they say that they do not wish to weaponise Insorum, once it is in wide circulation there will be nothing to stop others doing so.
The Minmatar seperatists cannot be allowed to open the Pandora's box of Insorum.
Mabnen was an act of terrorism against the Amarrian empire using the Matari people as thier instuments. Once again, the Matari people are used as tools by those that know no better, or better yet, have no morals to better guide them. As far as this "even if" of yours, stuff it. When EM states a thing, it is so, there is no dancing around the issue. It will not be weaponized by EM, and I would feel very safe in saying U'K either. Oh yeah, last point here, EM are NOT Minmatar sepratists, we are LOYAL to the Republic, and her people, so no matter what you may think, this "cannot be allowed" threat, is a hollow one at VERY BEST.
Dont take your gaming too serious ! |
Rocius
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Posted - 2005.12.02 02:17:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Dev Larren
*** snip *** nonsense and drivil
I should think that CAIN had learned its lesson when they first stirred up this pot. The Caldari are nearly as heavy in fault for Vitoc to begin with as is the Amarrians. Should you wish to pursue this course yet again, I think you will find that Since the Electus Matari has formed into a much more cohesive entity then when you met us last, your losses will be far greater when we meet again. For your own sake, keep clear of this issue.
Dont take your gaming too serious ! |
Suva Medinna
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Posted - 2005.12.02 02:26:00 -
[83]
Somewhere deep in the Metropolis region, in a small, out of the way system, behind a nondescript steel hangar door, amongst the richly appointed, well kept rooms full of the finest liquors, ancient artifacts, military gear, labs, books and equipment, a rather slim, pale figure reclines in an enormous tub, smiles at the plethora of tiny newscreens hovering overhead. Her companion barely hears the whisper, "Let them...We will continue as we always have, there is no name for what we are, or words for what we feel"
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Rocius
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Posted - 2005.12.02 02:38:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
Does the republic now claim that it acts in the behalf of all Matari everywhere?
I really dont care less about the U'Ks opinion on any of this, but the development of Insorium only seems useful if EM intends to push the republic towards a pan-matarism policy as opposed to simply protecting its own borders.
Is this indeed what is planned here?
Electus Matari does not, and would never "push" the Republic. We are but an Alliance of loyal pilots to it and have no designs of running it. The development of Insoriums has nothing to do with policy or our borders, it has to do with the people that Vitoc harms. Why is that so hard for you to understand? I honestly belive that you are so afraid of life in general that you see conspiricy and plots around every corner.
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
So if Elsebeth was running policy, then the answer would be:
"Yes the Matari people all are subjects to the Republic whether or not they live inside the republic"?
Of course I know that the republic itself is more intellegent than this, but it is useful to know where the EM stands.
The Ushra'khan have long stated that they are warmongers and terrorists, but it is a pity to see the EM join them in the former of these stances.
I hope that I am mistaken in this understanding of the EM's policy; it would be a shame to have such a promising pro-republic group turn out to be no better than the warmongers of the U'K.
Since you seem to have problems with literation, or perhaps your cognative powers are slipping in your old age, but I am fairly certain that Elsebeth did state that she IS NOT a policy maker for EM. If you want a slightly more official answer, ask a direct question of a Board member, and perhaps we will answer it as well. So, is short, what you have read from else has nothing to do with official EM policy, and does not necisarily indicate where we stand. I would like to make one point CRYSTAL CLEAR, since there seems to be a touch of confusion..... We have not now, nor plan to ever join the U'K. We are a seperate entity and are NOT responsible for their actions any more so that they are for ours.
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
Are any of those people who suffer Vitoc problems not officially Amarran property Biggus?
I guess more importantly does EM consider all matari to be citizens of the republic the way Elsebeth suggests?
Any Matari that wishes citizen ship within the Republic is welcome in my books. There are MANY Matari that are citizens of the Gallente Federation, and I have no problem with that. As far as the ones that are rescued from slavery and arrive within the Republics borders, YES, should they so desire, I would personaly sponser them for citizenship. Gradient has had a VERY long standing policy of this nature, and should not be of any suprise to any of you that enduldge in slavery. We will see our people freed, every last one that desires it of their OWN FREE WILL. As far as what you deem as property.... if its a Matari, I could care less what you belive.
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
To Biggus:
I would argue that race has nothing to do with matters of state. Religious history yes, but pure race no. Any attempt by the republic to claim that all matari everywhere are somehow under the protection of the republic is by default attempting to worsten relations between the Republic and the Empire.
I would request that in the interests of a continued Pax Amarria that the Republic's supporters should back off on such an antagonistic stance towards the Empire lest their antagonism strengthen the position of the Amarran hawk party as well as their own.
Your religious beliefs are so twisted that the majority of your own people dont know up from down Gaven. Slavery has nothing to do with religious belifes, its economical, and you damn well know it. The relations between the two entities will NEVER be good, while you hold Matari.
Dont take your gaming too serious ! |
Halunoto Vankaalen
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Posted - 2005.12.02 02:42:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Darius Shakor
How was their original use of force lawful when they occupied Matar and enslaved us with no reason almost a thousand years ago? Can you answer that for me?
How do you see them Amarr and not doing so for their own ideological reasons?
How is the whole garbage heap they call 'enlightenment' not meant to coerce us?
Caldari, you know absoloubtly nothing of what you speak! *spits*
Your people were once called terrorists too by the Gallente and claim to have suffered their predjudice. You broke away and went to war. Don't even dare presume to tell me or my brothers we are 'terrorists' because we are doing the same thing! You earn nothing but contempt with your cold hearted and selfish view of the universe here. If you cannot grasp out situation, then do not interfere because you have no right! You cannot even formulate an argument against us and for the Amarr at the same time without contradictiong yourself. Pha! *Sends the message in disgust*
Your reply might hold merit if
A: The galaxy as a whole did not consider you and your like-minded comrades "terrorists" already
B: Hippey didn't call the kettle black. Pay attention now Minmatar, do you understand what the figure of speech means?
C: You weren't a common theif, in possession of stolen goods.
I know my people were once terrorists. Good ones in fact, especially the bombing of Nouvelle Rouvenor. Tovil-Toba drove his flagship into Gallente Prime and tore apart Heuromont. I don't try and defend that, in fact I'm proud to be a descendant of those brave people.
You don't consider yourselves terrorists? You plan to "coerce" the Amarr by using the Insorum as a threat, you are fighting this war for ideological reasons. Sure slavery is illegal, but then again, last time I checked, so was aggression against a sovereign nation.
Don't try to distance yourself from "terrorism". What you think is good, and virtuous is despicable to Amarrians and vice versa. Just because you have your point of view, don't be so arrogant to automatically assume you're right.
-----
Enlist today!
Channel: CAINCOM |
Dev Larren
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Posted - 2005.12.02 06:50:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Rocius
Originally by: Dev Larren
*** snip *** nonsense and drivil
I should think that CAIN had learned its lesson when they first stirred up this pot. The Caldari are nearly as heavy in fault for Vitoc to begin with as is the Amarrians. Should you wish to pursue this course yet again, I think you will find that Since the Electus Matari has formed into a much more cohesive entity then when you met us last, your losses will be far greater when we meet again. For your own sake, keep clear of this issue.
Let's hope you are better at fighting in ships than with words given your inability to respond to my reasoning. I do like it when an opponent concedes defeat to my superior rhetoric never-the-less. Thankyou.
Commanding Officer
Channel: CAINCOM |
Athena Minerva
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Posted - 2005.12.02 08:46:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Halunoto Vankaalen
....C: You weren't a common thief, in possession of stolen goods....
The other points I will leave for the accused party to address but this particular matter has already been explained three times in this thread alone.
Zainou Biotech own the formula. The sample that the Ushra'Khan have was aquired as legal salvage and now belongs to them. This is recognised under both Republic and Caldari Salvage Laws. In point of fact it is recognised by the Gallente, Amarr and Concord too.
The prototype was left floating in space, if you find something floating in space unsecured you can take it and it is yours. That was the law then and is the law at time of writing. This has nothing to do with any mumbo jumbo about ancient sailing ships as was previously suggested.
The Republic, as well as all other factions including the Caldari state, are reviewing a change to this law. It will still be legal to claim salvage found in space but anyone with a prior claim will have a limited right to use force to claim it back. This is currently still a proposal and will not be enforced retroactively.
If you had wanted the sample so badly perhaps you should have taken from the wreck of the Doctors shuttle that you ambushed? Instead you left it drifting in Matari space and in that action gave up any claim to that sample of Insorum.
Before we dig too deeply into legal matters perhaps I should remind you about article 37a of the Yulai convention. 
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.12.02 09:11:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Dev Larren
In any case you cannot use "Laws Of Salvage" to make a Minmatar claim. That just strengthens our hand. Best hit the books and try again.
Who cares? It is in our possession now. Just you try and come and get it.
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Just a simple warrior.
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.12.02 09:12:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
It was my impression that the U'K wished the republic to declaring war on the Amarr Empire and that Midular was a pansy for not doing so. Is this not correct?
Really? Id like to see that official statement. We want our people back, and the only force you barbarians listen to is force, and it is the only one that has ever worked.
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Just a simple warrior.
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.12.02 09:16:00 -
[90]
And lets get this straight, my people are not your property slavers, nor were they ever. And I will kill every last slaver to free every last one of them.
You stole them from their homes, you enslaved them, you terrorised them. We are now fighting you terrorists to reclaim our peoples freedom. As have we ever.
And you will all fall before us if needs be. You have sown your seeds, now it is time to reap.
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Just a simple warrior.
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