Tracking Enhancers were made less effective which reduces autocannon dps on machs at range. I'm assuming that's what they may be talking about? Also mach prices are plummeting :(

It had been widely believed to be all but certain and, to be fair, 8 weeks ago that hull was stupid good next to its peers. You were an idiot trying anything else.

Now though, that gap has narrowed and I'm (personally) less convinced that a significant nerf is quite so....inevitable.

What peers? Point to me a Mach out pvping so that every chump with a cane in the region can come over to gank it.

This is the "I can't reach these grapes, therefore it must be sour" syndrome. Nobody is willing to actually risk Mach in pvp, therefore everybody wants to nerf it. Same as the tengu that's supposed to be "crazy good" with 100mn ab. Buff me, nerf you.

Either way, it has no impact on game balancing, as Mach is more rare in the wild than Moas, for different reasons. As CCP put it, "Eve balance = pvp balance, we don't balance for pve combat." A Mach nerf is a mission runner nerf that achieves nothing. Drop a hull size lower to Cynnabal, and you're onto something.

Ah yes, this dates back to 2009, and you're looking at the one responsible for that (along with the Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel uberness)

Considering I was the one breaking this ship in the first place, the least I can do is to post here what we think of pirate ships at the moment.

• Blood Raiders: Bhaalgorn is nice, Ashimmu and Cruor need some iteration. Need to find ways to make them useful at what they do without them competing too much with the Amarr Recon Ships.


• Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.


• Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.


• Serpentis: we are quite pleased with all the ships in this line.


• Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.


So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.

Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Unless by "theoretical" he means that "poor damage projection" is a weakness in "theory" and not in fact, because last time I checked the Mach is dearly loved for two things (1) great speed; and (2) amazingly good damage projection. With 1200 arties and plasma this thing will lay down half of it's max DPS all the way out to 110km (after the TE nerf), which just blows away any other projectile bonused hull in the game.

I suggest CCP nerf the Mach by adding back the falloff it lost from the TE II nerf, adding more Drone bandwidth (5 sentries would be cool after all it is half Gallente) and then changing the skill requirements to Minmi BS-5 and Gallente BS-5. To complete this 'Nerf' they would suspend the policy of if you can fly it before you can fly it after. Thereby either making everyone either train the BS skills to 5 or sell their precious under skilled boat, causing a flood of Machs on the market lowering prices and making them not so painful to lose in PVP.

Trolling aside, it might actually work :)

I think the TE nerf and the buffing of other battleships has brought it more or less in line now. Nothing else needed to kill it further imo

What peers? Point to me a Mach out pvping so that every chump with a cane in the region can come over to gank it.

Same as the tengu that's supposed to be "crazy good" with 100mn ab. Buff me, nerf you.

Either way, it has no impact on game balancing, as Mach is more rare in the wild than Moas, for different reasons.

A Mach nerf is a mission runner nerf that achieves nothing.

Your points literally lose any and all credibility when you start complaining about nerfs to anything pve related.

Sorry but regardless of how much a ship is used in pvp or how much its worth or whatever, ship balance is done around pvp. Everything else is secondary.

Your points literally lose any and all credibility when you start complaining about nerfs to anything pve related.

Sorry but regardless of how much a ship is used in pvp or how much its worth or whatever, ship balance is done around pvp. Everything else is secondary.

Speaking as a newb who can only just fly certain pirate ships, I would be fine with the Navy and Pirate hulls requiring more than level 1 of the ship skill. Make it a real achievement to get to. Right now it's a ISK thing to get to rather than a skill thing. But I also don't have the ISK so *shrug*.

Oh wait, then we'll have the "but I used to be able to fly it" whines and we know CCP can't take those. Oh well.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Unless by "theoretical" he means that "poor damage projection" is a weakness in "theory" and not in fact, because last time I checked the Mach is dearly loved for two things (1) great speed; and (2) amazingly good damage projection. With 1200 arties and plasma this thing will lay down half of it's max DPS all the way out to 110km (after the TE nerf), which just blows away any other projectile bonused hull in the game.

Your points literally lose any and all credibility when you start complaining about nerfs to anything pve related.

Sorry but regardless of how much a ship is used in pvp or how much its worth or whatever, ship balance is done around pvp. Everything else is secondary.

things that make ships good for pvp often make them good for pve too. but I have to ask does the mach need a pvp nerf? if a navy raven can go 1.1km/s is the machs 1.5km/s crazy? (although the agility may be crazy) and geddons with 37.8km neuts. I dunno the scariest thing about a mach in pvp is that you will think that because it is an expensive and powerful ship that they will have pirate implants and a gang booster (maybe even a cyno).

This thread's existence in this subforum is quite silly actually.

As a mach is considered by many to be a Top Shelf mission boat the presence of a thread about it's future as it affects mission runners seems quite appropriate in this subforum.

I suppose but the inevitable digression to balance discussion is pointless here; the woes of mission runners with regards to balance will largely be ignored.

Yes - until people cry about how easy it is to make isk in high sec (and that powerful mission boats facilitate this)...then...woooft the touchpaper is lit.

Yes - until people cry about how easy it is to make isk in high sec (and that powerful mission boats facilitate this)...then...woooft the touchpaper is lit.

I'd offer a citation, but you know where general discussion is, right?