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Rells	Posted - 2005.12.01 17:12:00 - [1] Edited by: Rells on 01/12/2005 17:14:09 http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3141815 One wonders why one bothers to play anymore when it just seems like you can buy yourself to the top. Any comment CCP? GTC sales legitimizes this nicely. It will be hot when they can get time codes and then sell them back to the community for a discount using macromined isk. The real question is, is CCP going to allow the game to be ruined by these people or put a stop to it and the GTC sales while they are at it? ◄ I must not fear. ◄ Fear is the mind-killer. ◄ Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. ◄ -- Paul Atreides
Timari Darkstar	Posted - 2005.12.01 17:30:00 - [2] Quote: "This Lineage II Chinese farmer gets about 56 cents an hour. Lineage II had banned Chinese IPs because of their huge Chinese farming problem; however, Sack's farming center easily worked around it." wonders if CCP will one day have to ban Chinese IP's.... or better still, make a dedicated Chinese server... oh wait!
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.12.01 17:32:00 - [3] I just ate my lunch, then read that article, now I want to puke... ***** bull**! ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.12.01 17:37:00 - [4] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 01/12/2005 17:37:47 The issue of gtc sales has nothing whatsoever to do with professional farming tbh. Farming in eve has existed since short after launch, and so has the buying of isk for cash. There's a whole host of temporary and incidental measures that can be taken against professional farming, such as changing game mechanics, banning IP's and IP ranges etc.etc. Nothing solves it permanently, and I'm beginning to doubt any form of repression ever will. Still, regardless of my thread making an argument for legitimising the buying of isk (and thereby removing the role of the professional isk farmer in Eve), I very much dislike the ability to buy ingame stuff for cash. Articles like that underline the source of such revulsion nicely. _______________________________________________ Power to the players !
Adam C	Posted - 2005.12.01 17:38:00 - [5] even if u mean well. its wrong to promote it, by even speaking about it openly. Of course the devs know. Providing the url to the site, just makes more people read it. Christ! I shouldnt even reply to this. but it must stop. Remove the url
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.12.01 17:43:00 - [6] so, it looks like everytime i steal from a chinese ISK farmer, he's losing his dinner oh well, poor bastard. he can go farm WoW, and then i'll leave him alone
Natas Liah	Posted - 2005.12.01 17:44:00 - [7] Hes not promoting it, if anything, it shows people just what really goes on in the eastern countries. Do you want to hide that for some reason?
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.12.01 17:52:00 - [8] You can't "buy yourself to the top" in EVE. You can't buy a good reputation, you can't buy loyalty, you can't buy skill (I'm not talking about skillbooks). Sure, you can buy yourself a cool character, a faction BS, a stack of BPOs, but it's all worthless if no-one knows who you are, you get owned by a crappy spawn because you don't know how to use the gear, and then CCP bans you.
ethicsgradient	Posted - 2005.12.01 17:53:00 - [9] all im saying after reading that is .... "hectic" -the ghost in the darkness-
MarkX	Posted - 2005.12.01 17:56:00 - [10] What I wonder is, why the hell do these people even agree to work for 56 cents an hour? **** you could make more pan handling in China.
Larshus Magrus	Posted - 2005.12.01 17:57:00 - [11] Knowledge is good. Hiding a problem never "fixes" it. The more people that know about this, the better.
Exioce	Posted - 2005.12.01 17:58:00 - [12] GTC for isk deals make perfect sense. currently, a GTC gets you more isk for your dollar than an eve-bay purchase. what this means is that eventually, the dollar value of Eve-bay isk will have to fall markedly, reducing profits for Eve-bay isk sellers. they may then move onto different MMOG's. the only flaw with this plan is that GTC sellers may themselves start reducing their prices. it started at 300 million isk for 90 days, but has now dropped to ~290. let's hope it doesn't drop much further.
Kane Ululani	Posted - 2005.12.01 19:05:00 - [13] Edited by: Kane Ululani on 01/12/2005 19:06:00 Edited by: Kane Ululani on 01/12/2005 19:04:51 Originally by: Adam C even if u mean well. its wrong to promote it, by even speaking about it openly. Of course the devs know. Providing the url to the site, just makes more people read it. I know this is well intentioned, but do you think anyone who wants to buy isk can't google a retail location in under a minute? The more people who know the better. Secrecy does not work, the only people who remain un-informed are those hurt most because they would never even dream of it. Let me give an example, the most commonly sold master key lock systems are deeply flawed. These systems are deployed in large buildings where physical access must be controlled, but a master is required. Now, it turns out that access to a single lock and key allows you to mathematically derive the master key which would allow access to every room in the building. This was publicized about 2 years ago when an ATT researcher took a look at these systems. The patent for this system was publish in 1889. The police and manufacturers knew this all along, as did the criminals. These three groups were happy to keep their monopoly of secrecy. Only citizens were damaged.
Dau Imperius	Posted - 2005.12.01 19:26:00 - [14] It's always nice to see the scum of humanity at work. Told ya'll. Glad to see people are finally getting enlightened that it ain't just e-bay!
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.12.01 19:39:00 - [15] Hmmm theyve got a nice income though. ------------------ [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.12.01 19:44:00 - [16] well RMR is going to throw them off because when their hauling macros take from can 9 times out of 10 when u replace their can with youre can and shift all the minerals into it they still take youre can. Now this has 2 outcomes in RMR either a) they start taking from their marked can only (which allows u to transfer it to youre can pop their can and then it aint work anymore) or b) they use their "old" MMs and take from youre can and u blow em sky high Ok so now what if they park 2-3 battleships in the area in acse u take from their can = well we might have to be more organised and once u get attacked i think u can attack back if u have 4-5 BS well they are toasted regardless lol I mean this is focused more on normal ore theives but on the flip side has the extra benefit we can disrupt these idiots who have basically stripped all the kernite out of kador. Ive had to resort to the follow petition and ore theif technique to be able to get my hands on isogen and mexallon
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.12.01 19:52:00 - [17] You know what? The one I spoke to, said he had 6 computers. Judging by his fleet, he was running 3-6 accounts on each. In 2-3 months, I'll be able to afford ONE computer like that. Sympathy? I nearly had kittens.
Kin Hanyerec	Posted - 2005.12.01 19:59:00 - [18] Edited by: Kin Hanyerec on 01/12/2005 20:00:03 there is something in eve thats isnt in the other MMORPGS. In the MMO in general you can ONLY earn stuff. In EvE you can lose: theres an important isk loss, equiment loss, and time loss if you die. You can say that the risk of dieing in empire is low, but the income is low too. I'd like to add something very important : actually GTC counters this kind of people. Theres no cash that goes into this people pockets, only in ccp's. Not even more than what they would get is everyone paid his account instead of buying timecards from players that bought them from ccp. GTC sells for isk can be a fatal blow to those people if everyone starts using it. The guilty are those who sell to earn money, not those that pay to earn ingame content. To sum things up, with GTC sells by players : CCP earns the same money than w/o. People that doesnt have money to pay to play can play. People that want to buy stuff for real money can have it (and lose their real money too). And professional farms dont get a $ in the loop.
HiToMinG	Posted - 2005.12.01 20:52:00 - [19] Originally by: MarkX What I wonder is, why the hell do these people even agree to work for 56 cents an hour? ** you could make more pan handling in China. Hey, I can explain this. 56 cent USD can make a hair cut in most cities of China. Also, It's enough to buy a lunch. BTW, I am not a farmer, so don't put ** on me. Thx.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2005.12.01 20:53:00 - [20] You guys should see how much money sites like eBaumsworld makes off of pirating online content. It's a larger industry than MMO farming, but most people working for such places make decent money(since they are US/EU based). That article's still pretty sick, altho the 500million sounds lower than what I read last year, which was over 700mil, maybe an overestimation? ------------------------------------ Quote: 1 Billion isk currently sells on ebay for about $225 90 day GTC $38.95 Currently selling for 300mill Therefore 1Bill isk costs you $129.50.
Manasseh San'Shapur	Posted - 2005.12.01 21:33:00 - [21] Makes me sick to my stomach. I had no idea that farming was on an 'industrial scale'. Surely this must be made illegal if it is not already. I know its a leglistic minefield, but if makers of MMO's get together and make somesort of 'Intellectual property rights' charter against such internet activity, then these wholesalers can be shut down. Banning buyers, macroers, IP addresses, etc will never get rid of the problem. Maybe the only thing that will is if developers have the itellectual property rights of all ingame items and moneys. And therefore reselling these is illegal and tantamount to theft and money laundering.
Kurren	Posted - 2005.12.01 21:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia You guys should see how much money sites like eBaumsworld makes off of pirating online content. It's a larger industry than MMO farming, but most people working for such places make decent money(since they are US/EU based). That article's still pretty sick, altho the 500million sounds lower than what I read last year, which was over 700mil, maybe an overestimation? Yeah, i thought it was more than that... coulda swore SOE said it was a billion dollar industry, but i could be wrong. Though, i'm probably not, cause my experience with SOE is that their has to be lots of money in it to get involved... maybe SOE are spies... cause there was lots of money involved in Everquest and they totally **** it... that's what they plan on doing with Macro mining/gold farming!! **********************************************
corporal hicks	Posted - 2005.12.01 21:56:00 - [23] Sick is all I can say, its times like this you look at the westren world and ask yourself, surely this can not be what we have become. Lets be honest the people profitting from this are all in the 1st world countires whjile the people doing the labour are all in 3rd world countries. it really is a sick trade. " Stay Frosty "
Rells	Posted - 2005.12.01 22:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Adam C even if u mean well. its wrong to promote it, by even speaking about it openly. Of course the devs know. Providing the url to the site, just makes more people read it. Christ! I shouldnt even reply to this. but it must stop. Remove the url Well i think you are smoking something illegal if you think im in favor of farming. I hate it vehemently. ◄ I must not fear. ◄ Fear is the mind-killer. ◄ Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. ◄ -- Paul Atreides
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.12.01 22:34:00 - [25] Originally by: Adam C even if u mean well. its wrong to promote it, by even speaking about it openly. Of course the devs know. Providing the url to the site, just makes more people read it. Christ! I shouldnt even reply to this. but it must stop. Remove the url Ostriches do this too. They bury their lil ol heads in the sand. It's not a convincingly good way to confront a problem.
Kylania	Posted - 2005.12.01 22:38:00 - [26] SOE has "legalized" the sale of in game money for real world money on their Station Exchange servers. Today there were several posts about how tragic it is that prices for plat have dropped so low. Last week they were complaining about $6/plat, now it's down to $5/plat (I'd estimate 1plat is roughly the same as 1 million ISK here or so?). -- Lil Miner
Rells	Posted - 2005.12.01 23:25:00 - [27] Edited by: Rells on 01/12/2005 23:24:44 Originally by: Kylania SOE has "legalized" the sale of in game money for real world money on their Station Exchange servers. Today there were several posts about how tragic it is that prices for plat have dropped so low. Last week they were complaining about $6/plat, now it's down to $5/plat (I'd estimate 1plat is roughly the same as 1 million ISK here or so?). A plat in eq2 is a lot of money ... think 200mil isk. ◄ I must not fear. ◄ Fear is the mind-killer. ◄ Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. ◄ -- Paul Atreides
Rells	Posted - 2005.12.02 23:12:00 - [28] Well i guess they dont want to comment. What does that say I wonder. ◄ I must not fear. ◄ Fear is the mind-killer. ◄ Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. ◄ -- Paul Atreides
Claude Leon	Posted - 2005.12.02 23:22:00 - [29] Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 01/12/2005 17:37:47 The issue of gtc sales has nothing whatsoever to do with professional farming tbh. Farming in eve has existed since short after launch, and so has the buying of isk for cash. There's a whole host of temporary and incidental measures that can be taken against professional farming, such as changing game mechanics, banning IP's and IP ranges etc.etc. Nothing solves it permanently, and I'm beginning to doubt any form of repression ever will. Still, regardless of my thread making an argument for legitimising the buying of isk (and thereby removing the role of the professional isk farmer in Eve), I very much dislike the ability to buy ingame stuff for cash. Articles like that underline the source of such revulsion nicely. I beg to differ Rod. With CCP allowing the sell of GTC for isk. These farming sites could move to selling GTC's for people that want to sell them for ISK. I was listening to a show on NPR(National Pulbic Radio). I listened in horror on a piece about some of these farmers being linked to organized crime. The arguments for GTC are not valid, IMHO. If you can't pay the monthly fee, then you should be using your time to get a better way of life.
Kaeljen Dae	Posted - 2005.12.03 00:42:00 - [30] OMG! We have pictures! Their names!!! books flights must kill, must kill
Pandemic Thinking	Posted - 2005.12.03 01:14:00 - [31] I just flew into Chaven, picking up a skill for my character when I glanced into the local chat. It seemed to be very full for a place that only has 4 belts of low grade ore. I wanted to puke at what I saw. This was where they skill up their miners, until they can run a barge. The names were nonsensical, random characters in Noob corps.. Five days old and already in a Omen, mining in the belts for whatever they could pull in. It was so bleeding obvious. Just impossible for CCP to NOT know what is going on. Someone estimated that there are 4k to 5k of miners alone in EVE. I thought that number to be high until I saw Chaven, now I think that it's an underestimation. There were tens of dozens of characters with random strings of names. Soon they will be out in other systems, taking every last bit of ore they can find and ruining the delicate economy of EVE. There is no way that Reservoir Dogs can kill them all. This has gone too far now. This is the end of EVE as a player driven economy, and for me the doom of the game that I spent the last 2 and a half years playing. How much cash did it take to sell out the game that you labored for CCP? Are you under the impression that EVE is going to remain sucessful? What happens when EVE turns into UO in space? Damn... It was fun while it lasted. A Good Deed is nothing more than a Bad Deed in need of a Drink
Clutch Cargo	Posted - 2005.12.03 01:23:00 - [32] This article is similiar to another article that someone posted a link to about 2 months ago. Although the article is different some of the bits are the same like SWG buying the guys house, Certain MMO's banning asian IP's, sweatshop pay etc. The truly sad part about all of this is that for the last 2 weeks the bulk of the new posts on these forums have to do with macroers. Macroers are showing up everywhere, not just in high sec systems, they are in lowsec aswell. They have decently armed "protectors" and they ply their trade all over. Eliminating roid belts in high sec would probably hurt new players more than it would hurt macroers. Same for rat strength, processing quotas and pretty much all the rest. The sad fact of the matter is this: CCP would need to hire a person or persons whose sole job would be to track down and verify macroers. Have this employee have a checklist to follow to determine if they are indeed macroers. Once a macro operation is proved (to whatever level of doubt CCP is comfortable with) they should be banned. No appeals, no second chances, nothing...just banned. Their IP's should also be logged. If necessary entire blocks of IP's would have to banned as well as was done with other MMO's. To some of you this may seem like "throwing the baby out with the bath water" but to me it makes perfect sense. The half measures and easy appeal process that has thus far been used to find macroers is just weak. At risk of being "sanctioned" I will print this. Certain markets are notorious for exploiting MMO's, with farming and hacks. This is not a stereotype, this is a verifiable fact. As business people CCP (and other MMO creators) they want to gain as many customers as possible; that means they have to branch out into these notorious markets. Clearly this is a double edged sword, more money is good, the exploits are not. IMO CCP needs to jettison it's business model of having the entire world on one server. A separate server for these infamous markets would solve almost all the problems. It would elimate the largest source of exploits and hacks AND it would expand CCP's customer base. In business that is called WIN-WIN and I think it's the solution here.
Asphyxiia	Posted - 2005.12.03 01:35:00 - [33] Edited by: Asphyxiia on 03/12/2005 01:37:10 It absolutely amazes me when people complain about the farming industry yet expect every one else to do something about it..... Duh If you feel so strongly then with respect get off your ar*e and do some thing about it.. I you feel that everybody else should do something and not you then go and join another game. as I personally have absolutely Zero respect for you. CCP have admitted they are under staffed - so use the current system against the farmers advantage - in other words play fire with fire. I must admit the inscessant ( buggered if thats spelt right) whinging is getting on my nerves, if not a lot of other people. Just get off your high horse - USE you alts and make it so that the farmers are made to realise that their farming in 1.0 and below is no longer tolerated by the community! Who whether pvpers, or carebears realise that this type of abusing the current system is wrong.. I hope to see more corps such as MAMMA evole. until this problem can be solved by software. Enough said , Rant Over Hugs n kisses, Aspyxiia Edit : Phrasing There is no safe space for Macros Anymore
Pandemic Thinking	Posted - 2005.12.03 01:48:00 - [34] We have killed 9 of them this week... Next week, what? 9 more? Read what our corp is about... How about you kiss my ss... A Good Deed is nothing more than a Bad Deed in need of a Drink*
Gunsnroses	Posted - 2005.12.03 01:50:00 - [35] Can anyone say Cruise missle? No seriously. If only farming held the penalty of death. Then this would be solved.
Asphyxiia	Posted - 2005.12.03 01:55:00 - [36] To pandemic - to whom are you talking? / typing about... Soory ... (oh lets use red cos its big)...... again duh. your 9 has has been matched 3 fold by mamma so stop the inter *****ing and lets go huntng. Every creditand respect for you trying to slow farming but please dont try and score points by purile banalities ( if you dont understand those big grown up words I understand :). Hugs n Kisses Asphyxiia There is no safe space for Macros Anymore
Natas Liah	Posted - 2005.12.03 02:04:00 - [37] Edited by: Natas Liah on 03/12/2005 02:04:42 The eastern countries are joining our EVE server more every day, the money they can earn here in real life is very good and due to the simplicy one of the best isk makers, they will keep coming and coming. REAL money is in the equation here, its their business, their life, they will not stop for anything, as time goes on, and their characters evolve, so will their methods, it will become worse, eve will die a slow and quiet death. CCP seem blind to this, or maybe they dont know what to do, but it will happen, they will milk eve for all that its worth. Please nobody mention the asian server thats going to come out either, do you think the people who are in this for real $$$ will play on it? No they wont, they will play here because on this server we have mostly euros and americans, the people who play the current server have a strong currency and a fat wallet. If you spend just 60 dollars on isk one time, you've already paid for one of them to rent a place to live, eat and drink for a month. This problem wont go away, it will just keep getting worse and worse, EVE will soon have some bad name and reputation attached to it, it will be the game that no new players come to because of all the macroers. The macroers will totally destroy the high security game for everyone, everywhere to there is some isk to be made, they will be there farming it, no new player in his right mind will play EVE. Short of CCP blocking all asian countries from playing EVE, i fear we are doomed.
Asphyxiia	Posted - 2005.12.03 02:22:00 - [38] I agree totally - but there are a few of us who at least will try (pandemic inlcluded :) . Join us / create your own corp -Im not bothered, but for now CCP are powerless. Its time We, as players took a stand. After all we all want to play a good game - we pay for it ! . To have it destroyed / taken away by a few ( and yes it is a few compared to the player base ) mindless money grabbing individuals is wrong. but please dont turn a blind eye, and regard this scamming as " dont worry somebody else will sort this out " guess what ?...... It wont .. We are trying to make a situation that WE want to play in!!! You should knwo what to do by now- if you dont eve mail me and Ill show you what you can do each and every individual who cares about eve. Hugs n Kisses Asphyxiia There is no safe space for Macros Anymore
Pandemic Thinking	Posted - 2005.12.03 02:29:00 - [39] In December of 2003, Li Hongchen a MMPOG player in China found his account in the game Red Moon had been hacked and all of his hard won 'weapons' were taken. He contacted the game company, Beijing Arctic Ice Technology Development Co Ltd for the name of the player who got his items, but they refused to release an information. He turned to the local police, who also refused to deal with the problem. Then he turned to Beijing's Chaoyang District People's Court. In Court He stated "I exchanged the equipment with my labor, time, wisdom and money, and of course they are my belongings." The game company argued that the items were infact, only bits of data on a server and represented no real propery. The Courts agreed with Li Hongchen that his items in the game consitituted real property with real worth. This set the presedence that online time and items were legally property to be sold and traded. In recent years since the ruling, Many online games attempt to establish Copyright ownership of in game items. You can find this in the EULA of EVE-Online. But the Culture that the Chinese courts established is that Chinese Law trumps EULA's. This attitude has spread to other countries, in and out of Asia. We saw that with the mass banning of Russians sometime ago. As CCP moves into the Asian Market, this will only get worst.. not better, I wonder now if CCP is truly interested in dealing with the Macro's. There is a lot of Real cash flowing in and that conflicts directly with the Will to deal with it. That new server most likely didn't come cheap. Now the question is "How do the Players let CCP know how they feel about this out of control problem?" They KNOW it is a problem, I just don't think they have the will to deal with it properly. How do we let CCP know that Macro's are ruining OUR game experience? A Good Deed is nothing more than a Bad Deed in need of a Drink
Natas Liah	Posted - 2005.12.03 02:41:00 - [40] Originally by: Asphyxiia I agree totally - but there are a few of us who at least will try (pandemic inlcluded :) . Join us / create your own corp -Im not bothered, but for now CCP are powerless. Its time We, as players took a stand. After all we all want to play a good game - we pay for it ! . To have it destroyed / taken away by a few ( and yes it is a few compared to the player base ) mindless money grabbing individuals is wrong. but please dont turn a blind eye, and regard this scamming as " dont worry somebody else will sort this out " guess what ?...... It wont .. We are trying to make a situation that WE want to play in!!! You should knwo what to do by now- if you dont eve mail me and Ill show you what you can do each and every individual who cares about eve. Hugs n Kisses Asphyxiia http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=254759 We have taken out probably up to 50 medium mining barges plus haulers.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.12.03 02:53:00 - [41] That article is rubbish. The ONLY verified case of of a sweatshop was Black Snow Ineractive, and that was based in Mexico. And BSI foght Mythic and lost. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.12.03 03:12:00 - [42] I doubt the EVE farmers are sweatshop employees. More likely a franchise, where you make a cash investment by purchasing the cheats and guides from a (Western) source at the top, and then it's over to them to do as they please, using their own multiple PCs and extremely high-speed internet connections to run 20-40 accounts simultaneously. So placing the blame on China is inaccurate, I'm sure South Korea and numerous other MMO-obsessed countries play a role as well.
Pandemic Thinking	Posted - 2005.12.03 04:11:00 - [43] Edited by: Pandemic Thinking on 03/12/2005 04:14:11 RANT ON I've been acrossed EVE all this week. There are Macro'rs all over the bleeding place. I finally can to the conclusion that CCP doesn't see them as a problem. I base this on the TOTAL lack of response by anyone at CCP and other discussions being locked by the moderators. This is just a place to rant, as indicated by CCP's absolute lack of response on the subject. Input from the player base is not necessary, only the illusion that they are listening. Oh boy!! A new Dev Blog!! That being the case; Why should I care? I build the ships, chase the Macro's and blow them up, costing me my isk and sec rating, til this character can't enter Empire anymore. In the end, the Macro's are still in there hauling out all the ore and I'm stuck in some low sec system. If I recycle this character, I am more likely to get banned for an exploit than a Macro Miner.. Screw this... I'm 20 million in the hole, my minerals are running low, and I've nothing to show for it. If it **es you off, you waste your time dealing with it. RANT OFF A Good Deed is nothing more than a Bad Deed in need of a Drink**
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.12.03 04:20:00 - [44] Congratulations, you have trained Bitter and Twisted to level 1. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.12.03 04:28:00 - [45] Originally by: Maya Rkell Congratulations, you have trained Bitter and Twisted to level 1. meh, I've got the spec trained
Staranc	Posted - 2005.12.03 04:31:00 - [46] Maybe a new Corporation, A new Police Agency to stop macro miners etc... hmmm... maybe this is a grand idea ;) i know i've heard it before... maybe ill looking into it or someone start it? -----------------------------------------------
Kellaen	Posted - 2005.12.03 05:44:00 - [47] Originally by: Asphyxiia Edited by: Asphyxiia on 03/12/2005 01:37:10 It absolutely amazes me when people complain about the farming industry yet expect every one else to do something about it..... Duh If you feel so strongly then with respect get off your are and do some thing about it.. Short of alt recycling (exploit) or ruining my sec status with bship bombs thus requiring months of re-work (I already have one fulltime job, thanks) there is nothing I can do. When people can permanently hide behind the veil of NPC corps all options to deal with them are basically negated. If they were in a PC corp this crap wouldn't last past two days. You want to know who it hurts? I've played since about november 04, got my covetor, got my 10 mining drones, got my strip II's, got my mining drone II's, got my refining 100% , my faction refining 7.05 standing -- EVERYTHING. What do I see then when I go to do some empire mining solo since .4 and lower is just asking to lose 60 mil in ship & mods along with other things in verge? Jinbin01, kjflfl, jjerlr, jggfs_3943842, and 10 other macro ospreys raping every single belt in a 5 system radius daily around arron. So you say go elsewhere, I have actually. You know the fun of moving your kit and ships 15-20 jumps, setting those bm's up, getting everything working to the point you can find some decent sized roids and good local people to chat with. That lasts for about a day, then macro j crew comes and sets up shop, making mining anything other then 15k ore veldspar roids impossible. Repeat this process 4-5 times and you begin to realize that outside of 0.0 alliance mining the system is a joke. So again, I guess it's not hurting anyone and we're all just imagining this. I've made more money doing lvl 3 missions with my 0 combat skills in a week then I made mining in a month with close to max skills thanks to this crap going on. I guess the only help on the horizion is stealing their ore and putting it in one of my cans then killing them when they take it back. Sad. Yes this is months of frustration being posted. Hard to stand the ignorant comments anymore.*
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.12.03 05:53:00 - [48] Originally by: Kellaen Yes this is months of frustration being posted. Hard to stand the ignorant comments anymore. Hey, I feel for you, man. I live in 0.0, but do a lot of buying and hauling in Empire through alt characters, and it is impossible to ignore. The last couple of months, it just leaps out at you. At first I thought cool, my preferred BS used to cost 77m but now costs 58m, then I see how that price reduction is achieved, and it makes me feel sick. I might be a lame ganker sometimes, but I am not without a sense of justice.
Dak Hakin	Posted - 2005.12.03 06:06:00 - [49] I have come to the conclusion that CCP is not worried about macrominers. I am seeing them more and more often, and while I have fun messing with them, not being able to shoot them is frustrating. I think I will just get a suicude ship with a smartbomb... _______________________________________________ If you fear the thorn, do not crave the rose
Godpool	Posted - 2005.12.03 08:57:00 - [50] You guys don't even realize how far gone the game is. IF it was open season on macro miners, then they would all switch to BS for a day and have INFINITE bs and kill all the people killing them. Look at those screen shots... They would have 30 people in a room with bs with no need for teamspeak! RMR should be called YMR yellow moon rising.
Staranc	Posted - 2005.12.03 09:05:00 - [51] Originally by: Godpool You guys don't even realize how far gone the game is. IF it was open season on macro miners, then they would all switch to BS for a day and have INFINITE bs and kill all the people killing them. Look at those screen shots... They would have 30 people in a room with bs with no need for teamspeak! RMR should be called YMR yellow moon rising. Then the idea of a new force where it has plenty of navy ravens etc and blow the hell outa them ;) -----------------------------------------------
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.12.03 09:08:00 - [52] CCP has other priorities. RMR will allow us to deal with macro miners sure they will adapt more suggestions will come as to how to deal with em in the meantime they are sending mineral prices lower allowing cheaper constructions so cant complain to much in terms of economic impact
Staranc	Posted - 2005.12.03 09:13:00 - [53] How its goes= They make $$ CCP make Nothing Easy goes :P -----------------------------------------------
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2005.12.03 09:27:00 - [54] Originally by: Clutch Cargo The sad fact of the matter is this: CCP would need to hire a person or persons whose sole job would be to track down and verify macroers. Have this employee have a checklist to follow to determine if they are indeed macroers. Once a macro operation is proved (to whatever level of doubt CCP is comfortable with) they should be banned. No appeals, no second chances, nothing...just banned. Their IP's should also be logged. If necessary entire blocks of IP's would have to banned as well as was done with other MMO's. When I see that listed on the CCP jobs page, my applicatoin will be in CCP's inbox not long after. As long as the job pays decently (i'm planning on becoming a teacher, so a 6 figure salary has never been a goal really), I'd take the job. I'd love to make an ISD branch of black ops, who would be sent out to 'deal with them', which would be followed up with an account ban (it'd be unneeded, but I'm sure some people would love to see it happen, plus the RP possibilities of a black ops group secretly sanctioned by CONCORD and the empires would be fun for non-macro issues too). The only reason I don't train up another char to fly a smartbombing apoc is because I don't want to put my main on hold for several months and I don't have the funds for such a thing. Kestrels are nice, but smartbombs fully pwn the groups. ------------------------------------ Quote: 1 Billion isk currently sells on ebay for about $225 90 day GTC $38.95 Currently selling for 300mill Therefore 1Bill isk costs you $129.50.
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.12.03 09:32:00 - [55] Quote: Currently, Chinese farmers are the main suppliers If anyone shouts racism at me ..they can go get *****d ...... Nearly ALL of these locus are from China or very close Asian parts!!! Get the Chinese server online soon as...ban all chinese addresses to our server. That article has ruined my day, Eve will die if you are not carefull CCP. SORT IT OUT, we killed 3 barges in Jita yesterday, but it took 4 of us and a lot of sec status hit. WE shouldn't be doing YOUR job, that WE pay YOU for, Isk will be worth nothing, no one will want to work hard in the game and it will lose all sense of what it used to be. It will soon go the way of previouse mmo's if you're not carefull. I petition, but why should I waste my time...YOU won't do anything about it at all. NOTHING. I mean how many macro miners have you actually investigated.....is the "we'll look into it" comment noe a SOON tm .... i.e nothing gets done. I've played this game for 2.5 years and have never been so displeased with the way the game makers are running it. A lot of time has been invested in this game for it to be tainted and ruined by s select few. An they are so EASY to spot. Surely you guys know about this, I can't believe you don't just go on in and ban loads of people. Scare them, make it not worth their while. But nothing...not a thing...2 months have passed.... and still the same group of ignarant macro miners/farmers ruining the empire industry are still mining.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.12.03 09:33:00 - [56] yeah ISD masqurading as concord ships turn up and pawn the proven macro fleets.
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.12.03 09:37:00 - [57] The newer macro's don't use cans...look at the size of the cargo hold on the large barge. With 2 expanders, it's a hauler.
Ukucia	Posted - 2005.12.03 09:38:00 - [58] A reminder: Macrominers can not be stopped by software. Any change you make to the game to make it "hard" on the macro miners will just cause them to create a new version of their bot that handles the change. Remember, they have complete control of the EVE client. Their software can read the screen, snoop network data and read the client's memory. Anything you try to make the client do to stop them will be circumvented. Not by the botter, of course, but by the bot writer. The bot writer is a skilled programmer that is making $24.95 a copy on the bot software he sells to anyone on the Internet. So it's not the 'dumb botter' you have to thwart. It's a very skilled programmer who is making a very good living creating bots, and will adapt the bot to any change CCP makes in their software to keep making that very good living. Bots can only be stopped by GMs and other players.
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.12.03 09:42:00 - [59] Yes other player or GM's. I really think it would take 2-3 days of GM's going on a rampage. Ban loads of supsect macro'ers. The one's that appeal should have their time online looked at. If it has been online more than is humanly or logicaly possible... i.e 16 hrs a day for days on end..... then they know who's lying and who isn't. Man If I had a ship that would take sec status I could clean up a whole region in 1 day
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.12.03 09:42:00 - [60] hmmm lets wait until after RMR id like to see how they adapt to the ore can theif marking changes
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.12.03 09:54:00 - [61] Edited by: Martin Gore on 03/12/2005 09:54:54 They don't use jet cans for mining...not ice miner anyway...they fill up ...warp to station...unloaded...fill up etc ad infinitum for 23 hrs a day
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.12.03 10:11:00 - [62] gotta admit those ice mining macros are persistant wish i could stay awake 23 hours a day to play eve :P my hats off to em they manage to increase lag of which CCP is focusing on that at the moment
Dak Hakin	Posted - 2005.12.03 11:02:00 - [63] I saw two macro miners in Teonusude using jet can in the ice field. Tried to steal the ice ehehe... Not enough cargo room on my little Stabber. They had a Mammoth to pick it up. I think the macro miner was watching though, cause when I brought my hauler in he quit jet-canning, but he also warped out and quit mining. _______________________________________________ If you fear the thorn, do not crave the rose
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.12.03 11:07:00 - [64] yes either they have wised up or they are using a macro that somehow senses the presence of ships in the roid field (ive noticed this with these types doesnt matter if its NPC ships or human ships they warp out immediate) - it helps if u have a cloaker and wait for em to warp off to dump ore at whatever station they are using then cloak when they come back they cant see u so go about their business. Still individual war dec contracts on specific characters would be an extension of the bounty hunting system
Solar Blade	Posted - 2005.12.03 11:12:00 - [65] well the only way of stoping them is to make macroing a concord attack rule. In other words if theres a way of writing a program to alert concord of macroing then they can react, allthough I don't know how they would want to go about doing that, maybe looking for commands that keep being re-isued time after time without anything else.
Jaik Jermaine	Posted - 2005.12.03 11:21:00 - [66] Originally by: Timari Darkstar Quote: wonders if CCP will one day have to ban Chinese IP's.... or better still, make a dedicated Chinese server... oh wait! hmmm there another game with a chinese server, guess which servers the farmers choose to farm on, heres a hint, its not the chinese server
Pandemic Thinking	Posted - 2005.12.03 12:38:00 - [67] CCP is looking the other way on the macro's. Too many paying accounts to ban. How do you think they are paying for that shiny new server? How do you think they are getting those high numbers to brag about; 17k player barrier broken? They have a pretty new office now; the rent has to be paid... Are they serious about this game or are they serious about their checking accounts? A Good Deed is nothing more than a Bad Deed in need of a Drink
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.12.03 12:43:00 - [68] Originally by: Kin Hanyerec I'd like to add something very important : actually GTC counters this kind of people. But then GTC's can be bought, sold on the forums and the ISK can be sold for profit on ebay ------------------ [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Jaik Jermaine	Posted - 2005.12.03 15:17:00 - [69] that article is almost 6 months old....
Serpensis	Posted - 2005.12.03 15:28:00 - [70] Edited by: Serpensis on 03/12/2005 15:28:41 Originally by: sonofollo yes either they have wised up or they are using a macro that somehow senses the presence of ships in the roid field (ive noticed this with these types doesnt matter if its NPC ships or human ships they warp out immediate) - it helps if u have a cloaker and wait for em to warp off to dump ore at whatever station they are using then cloak when they come back they cant see u so go about their business. Still individual war dec contracts on specific characters would be an extension of the bounty hunting system Just made a fast search on google, and up came "cyberminerx" and "MAX-COTE", the last has in-built routines for avoidance, random log-on and log-off to prevent log analysis, drone defence +++ now, if I could only find a "kill-all-macro-smegheads"-macro -- "Fear accompanies the possibility of death, calm sheperds its certainty."
Aleria Angelis	Posted - 2005.12.03 15:46:00 - [71] Originally by: Solar Blade well the only way of stoping them is to make macroing a concord attack rule. In other words if theres a way of writing a program to alert concord of macroing then they can react, allthough I don't know how they would want to go about doing that, maybe looking for commands that keep being re-isued time after time without anything else. I think you just mite be on to somthing gud there Solar! If CCP can design a program that checks for continous repetive actions then when they detect a posible macro-er, send an automated message asking them to type a specific word, if they dont type then criminaly flag them and toast them! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lav ya lots! -Aleria
Derisor	Posted - 2005.12.03 19:03:00 - [72] Originally by: Maya Rkell That article is rubbish. The ONLY verified case of of a sweatshop was Black Snow Ineractive, and that was based in Mexico. And BSI foght Mythic and lost. You seem to say that a lot about anything that doesnt fit your view of the world.If it supports you it is pure brilliant fact, if it doesnt it is lies and deciet. What possible reason whould that company have to lie about such a thing? People like you are no better than the macrominers themselves. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. If you act like a sheep, expect to be shorn and knitted into a colorful sweater.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.12.03 19:53:00 - [73] This is comming from the person who accused SOE of lying about their subscriber numbers in games? The fact is, Derisor, I disagree with you a lot because you're usually wrong. Plain and simple. There have been several interviews like this, all arround the same time. They have later been proven to been faked (NOT by the news companies, by the "hapless farmers"). "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Caeden Nicomachean	Posted - 2005.12.03 20:28:00 - [74] Six month old article on an issue that has been around for years. They aren't "sweatshops"...go to your local drycleaners to see that in action, or maybe spend a week with the landscapers who square away your lawn. What in one country buys rags, in another keeps you in espresso and turtlenecks. Wage slaves is just a catchy headline the owners of that site use to get people to read the article, pass the link around, and ensure the owners of that page get their banner ads in front of as many people as possible...which gives them probably as much margin as the people who run the original operation. The root issue is exchange rates. CCP can take measures to make mining and other operations a more hazardous activity, making automation more difficult and reducing effectiveness of economy of scale...but they can't fix the exchange rate of China, Mexico, or any other state. Politics always gets the "oh my GOD" around here, but the issue is far more a foreign policy issue (and special interests such as first world farmers and manufacturers) than a programatic one. CCP can come up with countermeasures, but this issue is not new and certainly not an "MMO" problem. Now that 2nd world countries have access to proper technology and are plugged into the internet, there will always be a market for exploiting the exchange rate in any international game that has its own monetary system. Period.
Angus Therm0pyle	Posted - 2005.12.03 21:04:00 - [75] Quote: he's made as much as $700,000 in a single year. "[SWG] built my new house, which I paid for in cash," he says. lol buy me a house TomB ---------------
Expert Newbie	Posted - 2005.12.03 21:50:00 - [76] Edited by: Expert Newbie on 03/12/2005 21:53:08 $130 US a month translates to $1050.17 Chinese RMB. That's enough to live comfortably in China, but the article makes it sound like it's slave labor. Chinese people aren't stupid. They won't work a crappy job if they can find something better. But if you're a high school dropout or you didn't get good grades in college and can't find any decent jobs, working at a Chinese 'sweat shop' looks better than washing dishes at a restaurant or cleaning the public toilets or sweeping the roads of dust. ----------
Derisor	Posted - 2005.12.03 21:58:00 - [77] Originally by: Maya Rkell This is comming from the person who accused SOE of lying about their subscriber numbers in games? I didnt accuse them of lieing. I said they do as a fact. SOE has a history of lieing about anything and everything if it suits their corprate interests. There is such a logn history of lieing that anyone who believes them about anything anymore is rather gullible. I dont think you will find many long term MMOG players that will support your positive feelings toward SOE. Originally by: Maya Rkell The fact is, Derisor, I disagree with you a lot because you're usually wrong. Plain and simple. You believe that because you believe the only true and right point of view is your own. You have said this flat out in the above statement. You didnt say "because I believe you are wrong" or "because I disagree with you". You said it as if it were a fact that you were infailable. Unlike you, I have no such notions of being infailable. I have been wrong many times in my life and I shall be again. However, about this issue I wont feel im wrong until someone presents me with some evidence proving it. And the word of Maya Rkell is not proof. Originally by: Maya Rkell There have been several interviews like this, all arround the same time. They have later been proven to been faked (NOT by the news companies, by the "hapless farmers"). Right. Belive that if you wish. Ive seen this first hand in other games. Ive seen the amount of game items flying through ebay and SOE calling it a billion dollar industry (and subsequently taking a piece of the action). I have seen far far to many things to disbelieve it. You can keep preaching the world is flat if you wish but those that look at the facts will see reality for what it really is. What is in the article is not hard to believe and several things about some famous exploiters (like the UO guy) are just outright fact. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. If you act like a sheep, expect to be shorn and knitted into a colorful sweater.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.12.03 22:49:00 - [78] I don't like SOE (and I agree their CS is the wrong side of a bad joke). However, that particular issue (subscriber numbers) is NOT something which they could lie about, since it would be defrauding their stockholders. The FACT is, there has never been a chinese sweatshop found for a western MMO. A mexican one? Yes, BSI's. Proof positive there. The standard method used by IGE, by far the biggest player in the secondary market, is NOT sweatshops or ISK farmers. No, their methodology is to approach the leaders of important corperations/alliances and ask them to sell them ISK from their corperate/alliance funds. This is well documented across a lot of games. You think the world is a donut, apparently, because you're completely midunderstanding where I am disagreeing with you. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
acestar	Posted - 2005.12.05 20:36:00 - [79] Sony fixed this problem, CCP can do it easily as well. Use a smart system to locate:) barges in 1.0 space, character less than 1-2 months old.. amount of time spent mining in relation to other activities. Associated transactions.. Take about an hour to do a database query to organize all of that. Then you ban the account... The more important problem is chinese isk miners making ton's of RL cash off the game selling isk by stripping belts. Destroy's game play for the beginners, turns the game into a factory, and makes people want to do something else. It's gotten out of control. The solution to this, is what sony did. Ban entire ip address blocks. This needs to be done in china asap. Where most of the macro miner's operate. Restores the game to something playable, not just one big exploit.
Jackson S	Posted - 2005.12.05 20:42:00 - [80] Can you use a warp jummer in high sec space? If so, why not just jam the macroers and let eh NPC rats deal with them?
ElCoCo	Posted - 2005.12.05 21:35:00 - [81] So.... Who is the sadest... The one "working" to make a living off ingame stuff... Or the one actualy paying RL money for it Heh don't get me wrong... I'm very much against trading game stuff for irl money... but still :D
Rells	Posted - 2005.12.05 23:02:00 - [82] Originally by: Jackson S Can you use a warp jummer in high sec space? If so, why not just jam the macroers and let eh NPC rats deal with them? No. Concord will waste you. And it would take NPC rats in 0.8 FOREVER to gank a mining op and there are no rats in 0.9 or 1.0 ◄ I must not fear. ◄ Fear is the mind-killer. ◄ Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. ◄ -- Paul Atreides
Kefra	Posted - 2005.12.05 23:52:00 - [83] Edited by: Kefra on 05/12/2005 23:53:40 Being new to Eve I do not know much about macros here, but my thoughts on macros in mmorpg were generally this: We dont the devs simply put in a parser that resticts certain commands. In swg we had loot farmers who would write macros to take out and loot mobs. The easy fix, it seemed to me, would be to run the macro through a parser when it is loaded. This parser could check for combat commands and prevent it from loading. Macros would still be viable, but could not be used for exploiting. I would think this would work and be applicable in any mmorpg.
Bongo Smith	Posted - 2005.12.06 00:01:00 - [84] Wouldn't work, isn't applicable. That only works for macroes that use the game's own macro features. A "meta-macro", if you will, will literally be another program playing the game. From the client software's perspective, it seems the key presses and mouse movements are coming from the user, when in fact it's a program feeding them.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.12.06 00:17:00 - [85] Originally by: acestar Sony fixed this problem, CCP can do it easily as well. Use a smart system to locate:) barges in 1.0 space, character less than 1-2 months old.. amount of time spent mining in relation to other activities. Associated transactions.. Take about an hour to do a database query to organize all of that. Then you ban the account... Congrats, you just banned a load of perfectly legit alliance alt ice miners. Lol. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2005.12.06 00:32:00 - [86] Originally by: Maya Rkell That article is rubbish. The ONLY verified case of of a sweatshop was Black Snow Ineractive, and that was based in Mexico. And BSI foght Mythic and lost. Yes the article is rubbish, and your proof showing that it's all lies and exagerations is so detailed and credible that you surely aren't trolling or flamebaiting. The bottomline with dealing with macrominers and isk farmers is CCP would have to ban the entire country of China, period, and a few other places as well. The Chinese shard doesn't matter. I don't know if CCP think the farmers are going to go there when they KNOW they have richer clients in the US and Europe. Ouver, Tom, Kieron. The only way you people are going to fix this problem is by banning all chinese IPs from TQ once the chinese shard is created. Afterall, due to their countries laws, they're not really going to be allowed to play on TQ anyways right? It's in your best legal interest to do this don't you think? ------------------------------------ Quote: 1 Billion isk currently sells on ebay for about $225 90 day GTC $38.95 Currently selling for 300mill Therefore 1Bill isk costs you $129.50.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2005.12.06 00:50:00 - [87] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 06/12/2005 00:52:10 Originally by: Maya Rkell However, that particular issue (subscriber numbers) is NOT something which they could lie about, since it would be defrauding their stockholders. No it's not, and here's why: SOE manager gets interviewed by a news source, the manager says EQ has 1.2million subscribers right now. The manager can be lying, but he's lying to the news source, which is a company that is not a shareholder of SOE. A shareholder with enough margin, thus rights, requests/recieves their report of SOE's business, along with their dividends. It says EQ2 has only 201k subscribers, or whatever the real number is. The shareholder is being told the truth. Also, simply owning stock/shares in a company doesn't give you such legal rights. If you buy a few % of the company, and do so based on faulty income reports, that would eb one thing, but if you're trading in maybe a couple hundred shares of it to make money, you don't get told **. Just having stock in a company doesn't give you such rights Maya. I'm not quite sure what makes you think otherwise. The only way lying about numbers will bite them in the ass is when those numbers are used to sell something that is failing. IE: CCP says EVE is growing, and now has over 1million subs. As a result, Microsoft buys out EVe for several billion dollars, making TomB, Kieron, and others rich as balls. However M$ suddenly sees that EVE only has 80k subs, and is making them less than 10% of what was advertised. CCP's former owners get sued and end up on the streets/in jail. Please don't be so naive as to think businesses have to tell the general public the truth on how good or bad they are doing, because they don't. If SOE tells you 10million people play their games, and you later find out that only 1mil play them, you can't sue them for lying to you anymore than you can sue your parents for telling you the Easter Bunny was real when you were little. Originally by:** Maya Rkell Congrats, you just banned a load of perfectly legit alliance alt ice miners. Lol. Yes, because alliance alt miners sell those materials that they need for their POSes... Please just admit you're trolling. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in thinking you're not so dense. ------------------------------------ Quote: 1 Billion isk currently sells on ebay for about $225 90 day GTC $38.95 Currently selling for 300mill Therefore 1Bill isk costs you $129.50.

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