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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc
Ex Cinere Scriptor
1977
   |
Posted - 2013.07.04 02:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Here is a neglected concept:
Introduce mission like scenarios where it is a known detail that a no win situation is imminent.
Hostile NPC, whatever, but the players need to evacuate an area under mounting hostile presence.
The purpose? Higher and higher escalating rewards become available, the longer the players can endure.
A group of defensive ships tanking and holding back assaults so rare items / ores / salvage can be recovered.
Wait too long, and lose everything when your ship gets popped.
Leave too quickly, and hear about the great loot others claimed after you left.
Players should need to evacuate a system, leaving by a gate or similar entry point.
Thoughts?
Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata)
Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
872
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 03:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
I like the concept. +1
|
Adunh Slavy
1085
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 04:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
I like the idea. I would be careful though and not have the rats have much bounty though or it turns into a big farm with rather large groups of farmers.
I can easily imagine a situation where more and more players just enter and everyone blasting away at the rats
local chat: "X up for farmville!" |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
347
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 06:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
I second the motion and call for a vote in CCP Senate. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
312
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 06:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
This sort of thing could easily be set up as a time limited anomaly rather than a 'mission'.
Suits it better too.
New class of Anomaly, 'Distress call'. You aren't there to destroy the rats, so they can have a 'visible' spider tank set up capable of handling lots of DPS making them very hard to kill for their value, but they don't have to put out that much DPS in return, and while player ships are on the board, they don't target the NPC 'distress call'. |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
87
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 07:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Interesting concept. Definitely worth checking how it works out on SiSi.
Incidentally it could be the ultimate peen comparison tool. Imagine following conversation:
- "My pimped Vindi survived 7th wave in The Gauntlet".
- "Bah! When I was young we could go no less than to 10th wave! Solo. In Velators. With one hand tied behind the back..."
You get the idea. |
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
Tribal Band
16
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 07:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
This would likely be a case of isk value being in the loot instead of bounties(like sleepers) the wrecks though would need to have shorter then the current 2 hour timer for one and the site/mission would need to despawn in a manner like sleeper data/relic sites(very quickly after opening a can). |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
194
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 09:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
Travasty Space wrote:This would likely be a case of isk value being in the loot instead of bounties(like sleepers)
Bad comparsion, because sleepers' blues are essentially physical equivalent of ISK because you sell them to NPC instead of players. ISK faucet in short.
Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Dark Drifter
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
71
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 13:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
+1
list of options:
1-site pays Concord LP
2-LP starts at X and decreases over time till site is failed (players must be on grid for LP to tick down)
3-make the sites spawn over districts on planets
4-the rats are all related to DUST in some way.
IE: War barges over districts with Bombardment support craft and haulers moving Dust Related items to and from
the planets surface. have clone rats (ones added to low sec) as overseers in the site with elite rats as escorts
5-give the rats in the sites SANSHA AI.
6-have assault, defend, hold the line options
assault= assist the pirate faction in killing off the enemy war barge.
deffend= assist the Parent faction by killing the pirate war barge.
hold the line= against rouge drones auvive long enough to facilitate the escape/delivery of DUST BUNNIES to the planets surface
7-new spawn for every agressed ship on grid.
IE: you land on grid ans shoot faction War barge/support then you spawn a faction defense fleet. kill that a larger
one spawns and so on. if you provide remote assistance to an agressed pilot then you cause a spawn for your self
you could also just let them duke it out and scoop the loot from the dead war barge (some dust related ****. maby a
clone pack or 2. but doing this will yeild no LP
8-may be have the hacking game in there someplace |
Loki Feiht
Feiht Family Clan
97
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 13:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
+1
Any and all ideas for new PvE content should be looked at imo
More NPC thread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=220858 |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
166
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 14:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Interesting concept. Definitely worth checking how it works out on SiSi.
Incidentally it could be the ultimate peen comparison tool. Imagine following conversation:
- "My pimped Vindi survived 7th wave in The Gauntlet".
- "Bah! When I was young we could go no less than to 10th wave! Solo. In Velators. With one hand tied behind the back..."
You get the idea.
Uphill both ways?
+1 to OP, this is sort of what I expected incursions to be but Incursions wound up just being ISK faucets. That you can sleep to.
Save the drones! |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
198
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 14:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:
+1 to OP, this is sort of what I expected incursions to be but Incursions wound up just being ISK faucets. That you can sleep to.
This activity will turn up to be farmville for either ISK or modules or LP w/e rewards for doing those will be just like incursions are now.
Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Loki Feiht
Feiht Family Clan
97
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 15:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:ExAstra wrote:
+1 to OP, this is sort of what I expected incursions to be but Incursions wound up just being ISK faucets. That you can sleep to.
This activity will turn up to be farmville for either ISK or modules or LP w/e rewards for doing those will be just like incursions are now.
Oh I dont know, if these types of missions revolved around evolving AI with randomized spawns then I suppose you could say 'farming' but there would deffinatly be a high risk, also, they could be made with non hostile npc's which turn hostile once shot but gaining any shooters (and therefore reppers) suspect flags I think this would be an amazing way to create great areas of fun for all players involved, and potentionatly a lot of tears as well, its entirely down to implementation all you have to do is think outside of the box :)
As an example we could start with the hualer spawns outside stations, attacking these could gain you suspect and weapon timers and the station would immediatly spew out a small defence force (Vipers omg!!) as well as firing sentry weapons, kill all these and tougher ships would spew out of the station, evolving with information based on weapon systems players firing are using, players entering the fray to aid the npc's could gain LP if they win the fight and so forth, needless to say these particular types of haulers should be a diffferent type than normal and dont necessarily need to be on a station, its just an idea.
Please take a moment to browse my thread with some other basic ideas for more diverse npc content in eve :)
More NPC thread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=220858 |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc
Ex Cinere Scriptor
1985
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 17:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
New options to consider!
Would the preference be towards:
Waves of small groups
OR
replacement NPCs joining the current fight as openings appear.
(Both would increase the overall NPC forces over time)
Second detail:
It will obviously be possible to interfere with the efforts of others, but HOW difficult should this be?
Very difficult, you need to camp out under a cloak to avoid being driven off. You could make better rewards doing the mission than ninja looting others.
OR
Easy, you just go in. The encounter will scale up to be more difficult in response to you, but you can just take loot or blast other players and take their loot from their hulls. The mission will be wiped out, but you'll get ISKies... and maybe new players out for payback against you too!
(adding this to OP)
Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata)
Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
88
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 17:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:ExAstra wrote:
+1 to OP, this is sort of what I expected incursions to be but Incursions wound up just being ISK faucets. That you can sleep to.
This activity will turn up to be farmville for either ISK or modules or LP w/e rewards for doing those will be just like incursions are now.
In order for it not to happen, it shouldn't be as rewarding. I may be torched for what I'm going to say, but this kind of mission should on average pay less than L4 missions, as long as hisec is concerned. I called it the gauntlet for a reason. The ultimate rewards here are bragging rights.
Case in point: I routinely complete AE bonus even though I'm not obliged to. Okay, bounties and loot+salvage are nice but honestly it's not the best income out there. The reasons I do it are:
1. Because I can.
2. Because I lost three ships in early attempts. It's not personal, not anymore, but still it has this slight tint of revenge.
3. Because I can test new ships. "Okay, this one works nicely, but let's see how it fares in AE bonus".
Oh, just got refinement idea: what about making this kind of mission a bonus? There's normal mission which you normally complete but if you have balls, or death wish, you throw yourself into the fray. |
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
15079
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 18:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
I love it and it fits within the spirit of Eve.
+1 from me bud.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc
Ex Cinere Scriptor
1988
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
I would love to hear more feedback on this idea.
Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata)
Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Lilliana Stelles
815
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 16:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
I don't think this would really work.
Look at Enemies Abound (Gallente) part V/V.
It's one of the toughest level 4 missions.
A new wave spawns every few minutes (up to 6), with varied damage type battleships that are highly resistant.
It's very difficult to solo.
The goal is to kill the stargate and warp out before you get overwhelmed.
Though 90% of mission runners won't even shoot at the stargate until the end. They wait there, with an alt or another player, and continually kill the battleships to get more loot.
I feel like your "unwinnable" situation will, instead, just generate massive income for a fleet of machariels with logi support who can kill them nearly as fast as they spawn.
Even scaled up to Incursion size, unless there are insta-kill death rays, someone will find a way to tank it with their 4x PITH X-TYPE BEARD OF INDESTRUCTIBILITY or whatever other nonsense, giving an enormous advantage to those who have such fits, and making the mission useless to the have-nots, creating a large disparity.
Incarna from 2009. 3 Years later and what we have doesn't look half as good as this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41s1Iox18A |
Wolf Kraft
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 20:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:I don't think this would really work.
Look at Enemies Abound (Gallente) part V/V.
It's one of the toughest level 4 missions.
A new wave spawns every few minutes (up to 6), with varied damage type battleships that are highly resistant.
It's very difficult to solo.
The goal is to kill the stargate and warp out before you get overwhelmed.
Though 90% of mission runners won't even shoot at the stargate until the end. They wait there, with an alt or another player, and continually kill the battleships to get more loot.
I feel like your "unwinnable" situation will, instead, just generate massive income for a fleet of machariels with logi support who can kill them nearly as fast as they spawn.
Even scaled up to Incursion size, unless there are insta-kill death rays, someone will find a way to tank it with their 4x PITH X-TYPE BEARD OF INDESTRUCTIBILITY or whatever other nonsense, giving an enormous advantage to those who have such fits, and making the mission useless to the have-nots, creating a large disparity.
I could be mistaken, but I took it as each wave becoming significantly more difficult. So you might start with the first wave having four battleships, the second having eight, the third having sixteen, and so on with each wave have some amount of smaller ships as support. Until you reach the point that there are so many NPC's on grid that they're instapopping players. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
1234
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 21:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
I like the concept, but they should have similar restrictions as DED complexes, but just a bit tighter.
Graded 1 - 6 one being the smallest size ship, 6 being the largest.
Grade 1: T1 and Navy Frigates
Grade 2: T1 Destroyers and All Frigates
Grade 3: T1 and Navy Cruisers, and all Destroyers.
Grade 4: T1 and Navy Battlecruisers and all Cruisers with the exception of T3.
Grade 5: T1 Battleships, all Battlecruisers.
Grade 6: All Battleships and T3 cruisers.
Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1266
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 21:40:00 -
[21] - Quote
interesting concept but you have to take REALLY good care to keep people from abusing it. i'm thinking 100 smartbombing battleships oneshotting whole waves no matter how many spawns, and other similar exploits...
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc
Ex Cinere Scriptor
1991
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 22:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
Wolf Kraft wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:I don't think this would really work.
Look at Enemies Abound (Gallente) part V/V.
It's one of the toughest level 4 missions.
A new wave spawns every few minutes (up to 6), with varied damage type battleships that are highly resistant.
It's very difficult to solo.
The goal is to kill the stargate and warp out before you get overwhelmed.
Though 90% of mission runners won't even shoot at the stargate until the end. They wait there, with an alt or another player, and continually kill the battleships to get more loot.
I feel like your "unwinnable" situation will, instead, just generate massive income for a fleet of machariels with logi support who can kill them nearly as fast as they spawn.
Even scaled up to Incursion size, unless there are insta-kill death rays, someone will find a way to tank it with their 4x PITH X-TYPE BEARD OF INDESTRUCTIBILITY or whatever other nonsense, giving an enormous advantage to those who have such fits, and making the mission useless to the have-nots, creating a large disparity. I could be mistaken, but I took it as each wave becoming significantly more difficult. So you might start with the first wave having four battleships, the second having eight, the third having sixteen, and so on with each wave have some amount of smaller ships as support. Until you reach the point that there are so many NPC's on grid that they're instapopping players.
This is pretty close to the concept, although the rate of increase will vary.
A good clue, is if the NPC forces managed to push you into hull, or even made it through most of your armor, it is probably not a good idea to stick around...
Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata)
Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
88
|
Posted - 2013.07.06 07:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:interesting concept but you have to take REALLY good care to keep people from abusing it. i'm thinking 100 smartbombing battleships oneshotting whole waves no matter how many spawns, and other similar exploits...
But this is what I like about it. As I imagine it the difficulty rises more or less exponentially. Take example of what Wolf Kraft wrote: each wave is double numbers of the previous one. Which means no matter how many ships do you bring with you, you *will* be beaten at certain moment (or EVE server implodes, but let's put hardware considerations aside). Roughly estimating, in that scenario for each tenfold ships more you are able to survive three more waves. Isn't it beautiful?
As for abuse, farmville, etc. again, the way exponential functions behave means that if the payout is directly proportional to difficulty you make most of your profit on latest waves, those which almost kill you. Though here I'd invoke law of diminishing returns and scale the payout linearly (quadratically, to be more precise).
An example (not proposition of actual balance, just an illustration of the principle).
- each wave is twice as numerous and dangerous as the previous
- each wave pays 1 million more than earlier; here I assume the payout is split like in missions, not paid individually like in incursions
- starting conditions are such that 4th wave is still doable solo by regular T2 fitted T1 battleship with good skills, next wave can be maybe done but takes long time (or requires warping out, if it's applicable)
- pimped marauder or pirate battleship takes one wave more
Some consequences:
- typical solo mission runner will go to 4th or 5th wave and GTFO
- mission runner can go with friend and go to one wave more
- blitzers, if they ever go here, will finish earlier, at 3 or 4 because that will be the last one done in reasonable comfort
- ditto farmers
- because payout is split, you get less when you do it in fleet, but you go farther (bragging)
Generally, the way to avoid abuse is by careful reward vs. risk balancing. Which is when problems begin, IMO. Difficulty is multidimensional and it would be hell of a job getting it right. Though I have firm belief in exponential functions. In worst case even if just doubling number of ships in each wave does not make it exactly twice as difficult, it definitely won't make it any easier.
As for smartbombs, last time I checked they take cap. Quite lots of. And have quite limited range. Nobody said all waves start clustered on top of your head. Add some neuting to the mix and you're in trouble. Add some scramming stuff and you're screwed.
@Nick, BTW, unless I missed something there's one thing which haven't been considered so far, wave triggers. Obvious three are:
- killing or attacking a trigger ship: could be a bit too nasty. Maybe save it for later iterations.
- killing whole wave: I'd start with this one. Self-pacing and gives some breathing room. Maybe it turns out it gives it too much but again, it can be tweaked.
- timed: this is interesting, in some twisted way. You not only have to deal with the wave, but you have to do it quick enough not to get overwhelmed. Probably it would mean than in typical conditions typically one wave less would be completed, as compared to other options. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
2003
|
Posted - 2013.07.06 07:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
I suspect implementing this would require some significant work behind-the-scenes on Eve's codebase. Having said that, missioning as a whole is in need of a complete overhaul and this is a good example of how missions could work if PvE in Eve wasn't an afterthought knocked together in 5 minutes by devs still recovering from last night's drinking. Should CCP be willing to put in that effort I'd very much like to see this kind of development.
Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
1235
|
Posted - 2013.07.06 14:40:00 -
[25] - Quote
Some thoughts, would the waves come after a certain time period of after the last rat of the current wave was destroyed?
If the next wave comes after the last rat of the current wave is destroyed should there be a "cleanup" time?
Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc
Ex Cinere Scriptor
1991
|
Posted - 2013.07.06 19:08:00 -
[26] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Some thoughts, would the waves come after a certain time period of after the last rat of the current wave was destroyed?
If the next wave comes after the last rat of the current wave is destroyed should there be a "cleanup" time?
These points are pointed at as options, regarding whether ships arrive in waves with a possible gap, or as positions become available.
Force increase to occur either way.
Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata)
Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Tryaz
Improvised Tactics
27
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 11:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
+1 This is a great idea!
The only problem I envisage is that it might still be possible, using extraordinarily elite gear and implants to turn MASSIVE profits with ease because the system assumes that most people "by this point" are dead or warped (the percentage improvements over t2 possible with boosters, links, high-grades and officer mods are huge after all)
What do you think?
Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1272
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 11:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:interesting concept but you have to take REALLY good care to keep people from abusing it. i'm thinking 100 smartbombing battleships oneshotting whole waves no matter how many spawns, and other similar exploits... But this is what I like about it. As I imagine it the difficulty rises more or less exponentially. [...]
notice how in the exploit i proposed it does not matter how many rants spawn because they are instantly wiped out before they can even fire a single shot. i'm not saying this particular case can't be worked around (for example by increasing the rats' hp); i'm saying it's difficult to predict ALL exploits of this kind of mission and if you fail once, you will have to deal with people 4x4ing through the sandbox.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
89
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 13:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:interesting concept but you have to take REALLY good care to keep people from abusing it. i'm thinking 100 smartbombing battleships oneshotting whole waves no matter how many spawns, and other similar exploits... But this is what I like about it. As I imagine it the difficulty rises more or less exponentially. [...] notice how in the exploit i proposed it does not matter how many rants spawn because they are instantly wiped out before they can even fire a single shot. i'm not saying this particular case can't be worked around (for example by increasing the rats' hp); i'm saying it's difficult to predict ALL exploits of this kind of mission and if you fail once, you will have to deal with people 4x4ing through the sandbox.
Yes, I do. By no means I'm saying that what had been proposed in this thread is 100% bulletproof. But the exploint you mentioned is relating to implementation details. Yeah, those where devil is hidden but still details and at this very moment we're discussing only rough idea.
Yet not leaving an opportunity to fuel discussion unchallenged I'd like to observe that in order to exploit smartbombing tactics you have to be close to those guys. Which means couple of things:
1. You have to be where they spawn. Counter: different spawn points; spawns can be spread.
2. Or you have to reach them very fast. Counter: same as above; add some stasis towers for good measure.
3. Your fleet have to stay together. If you can instabomb an NPC battleship, there's chance the same can happen to your ship too. Unless there is something I don't know about smartbombs, it should naturally limit your fleet size. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1274
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 13:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
random spawn points sound good, except the fact that they may introduce bias towards missile boats.
also, i feel that we are past the point of asking IF this system would be a good idea (the answer is yes), and are moving on to the specifics of how to implement it properly (exorcising the details if you will).\
btw: just as a random thought, is there any reason to not incorporate this new type of pve into the incursion system (as in: incursion hard modes for the shiny fleets to compare their e-peen)?
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
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