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Keep the unknown unknown: deactivate the discovery scanner in w-space

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Penny Ibramovic Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms 67	Posted - 2013.07.04 16:01:00 - [1] - Quote http://www.tigerears.org/2013/07/04/keep-the-unknown-unknown-deactivate-the-discovery-scanner-in-w-space/ I was minding my own business, floating in space, when a new signature pops up in the system. Neat, huh? No, not at all. I'm not in empire space looking to grab some loot from a site, but in w-space where the signature is almost certainly a newly spawned wormhole. Without any input or action on my part, I now know of a new connection in the system, likely to bring at least a scout, maybe a fleet, and can act accordingly. The discovery scanner makes it all possible. And the discovery scanner must die. I have already argued that an automated directional scanner would change the fundamental nature of w-space for the worse, as it would introduce an asymmetric shift in safety towards those less-inclined to PvP interactions. Now instead of an automated d-scanner, we have been given something more powerful. The discovery scanner may not show when pilots are in the system, and new signatures may not be wormholes, but what it does is give strong evidence of a new wormhole opening before anyone has even jumped in to the system. And this warning doesn't even require a single mouse-click to be effective. But more clicks don't make the game better, right? So the argument went for the directional scanner, so the argument is made for the discovery scanner. No, more clicks don't make the game better. Yes, not needing to mash the mouse button would be preferable to constant clicking. But that's how the directional scanner works, and that's how it was designed to work. The decision to gain intelligence with every update or to take a rest and trust in general inactivity is the choice every pilot makes, solo or in a fleet, in w-space. The same was true with scouts having to continually update their scanning probes. The fundamental nature of w-space is the unknown. The space is unknown, the wormholes are unknown, the pilots in the system are unknown. If you wanted to know something about the system you had to uncover it, either through careful monitoring of the directional scanner or through the use of scanning probes. Now the discovery scanner shows you every signature, every site in the system within seconds of entering, and any new signature the moment it spawns. Even with probes launched and inactive, new signatures will be added to the scanning interface. Now there are fewer unknowns. Fewer unknowns makes for less threat. Fleets engaging Sleepers in a fully scanned and secured system can now take a passive approach to safety. Just watch the scanning interface for new signatures and retreat if any spawn. There's no need to update the directional scanner, and the discovery scanner is already dynamic. You can't sneak up on even mildly experienced pilots through a new wormhole. And if the wormhole is old, well, mildly experienced pilots aren't likely to run sites in an insecure system. The best a w-space hunter can hope for is activity through a carelessly opened K162, or pilots who aren't paying attention to the most obvious signs of intrusion. That's not only slim pickings, but picking on only the weakest, ill-prepared pilots in space. The level of threat you bring, and the feeling of being in threat, is drastically reduced when the discovery scanner acts as a beacon to any active pilot indicating that someone is coming. I can see the reasoning behind the introduction of the discovery scanner, even if I don't agree with it. CCP wants scanning and exploration to be an obvious route for new players, but didn't see how capsuleers could stumble in to it. Clearly showing all of the 'hidden' sites in a system is to pique the interest of capsuleers in to finding out how to uncover them properly. But the same information is useless and irritating for pilots who, for example, know about and are uninterested in scanning being presented with useless information on every jump, which for haulers and roamers is frequent. This is not to mention that the discovery scanner is the antithesis to the very idea of exploration. There is never any need to launch probes to see if there are any signatures in the system. New signatures automatically appear in the scanning interface, and on the HUD in space, and around the planet where they are closest to. Perhaps this is of relative unimportance for the site runners in empire space, but the notion of w-space being unexplored and unknown has been completely undermined. Simply travelling through w-space now shows you what having to launch probes used to. Not only is a wormhole opening immediately obvious to any pilot paying attention, without even needing to update d-scan to check for a cloaked ship entering the system, but merely keeping track of the number of signatures in each connected system lets you check at a glance whether any particular system needs re-scanning for new connections. You don't even need to launch a probe to do so. It is intelligence without input. If there is ever a feature that needs to be rolled-back, I think this is it. The game is wrongly simplified because of the discovery scanner, and w-space has been neutered, when the intention was to reveal the exploration option to those unaware of it. There are better ways to accomplish this goal. As for a solution: disable the discovery scanner for w-space. Tie it in to empire hardware, if there needs to be a reason. This keeps w-space unknown, more so for those entering from empire space, and further distinguishes w-space from null-sec, all without negating the benefits the discovery scanner has brought for pilots who weren't aware of exploration.
Nix Anteris Bite Me inc Bitten. 68	Posted - 2013.07.04 16:15:00 - [2] - Quote I think I already said this several weeks ago. (found it) And I only read the title, not the text assault. There was at least one CSM who chimed in to say they consider (at least wormholes) appearing instantly to be harmful to our environment.
Casirio DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized. 478	Posted - 2013.07.04 16:21:00 - [3] - Quote No.
Tisisan Hard Knocks Inc. 125	Posted - 2013.07.04 17:31:00 - [4] - Quote Casirio wrote: No. Rational, humble, and well thought out. Everything I would expect from Polarized. It is a little ironic that CCP has complained that they didn't intend for people to live in wormholes full time, then they dumb it down so any scrub can live there in complete safety because they get a free 'you're about to get jumped' warning, and nobody will evict them because SMAs don't even drop loot anymore.
Otumi Karasu Corvidae Inc. 2	Posted - 2013.07.04 17:44:00 - [5] - Quote Best possible route I can think of would be to simply remove the WHs from the discoveryscanner. Have Wormholes only show up on the actual probescan and not on the "probeless" systemscan. This would however make it far easier to distinguish WH from other sigs without having to resolve, bringing back a function of the old Deep Space Probes albeit in an different (slightly easier) way.
unimatrix0030 Viperfleet Inc. Transmission Lost 38	Posted - 2013.07.04 18:47:00 - [6] - Quote I like bothe ideas in this thread(original and the one from Otumi) , i only have one question though did the new system bring in more people and new people? If it does, do they interact with us? If on of those questions in no then the system hasn't done us any good and shuld be altered , if not then we might have jumped the gun to fast... .
Bjurn Akely Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters 17	Posted - 2013.07.04 19:04:00 - [7] - Quote unimatrix0030 wrote: I like bothe ideas in this thread(original and the one from Otumi) , i only have one question though did the new system bring in more people and new people? If it does, do they interact with us? If on of those questions in no then the system hasn't done us any good and shuld be altered , if not then we might have jumped the gun to fast... . So far there has been an increase of people entering holes. I fair few leave right away. I mean just that: the junp straight out again. Others scan further and travel around. I few actually do anything. I roam holes quite a bit. Personally I've seen fewer fights, and those fights I've seen is with people who thought that w-space is pretty much like hisec. On many occasions, an alarming number of them, all I see when I enter through a hole I opened are wrecks. The locals are behind their POS shields. I agree the article Penny wrote wholeheartedly. The implementation is the death of non-concensual PvP. Just like local is in Lo/Null.
Rek Seven Probe Patrol Polarized. 758	Posted - 2013.07.04 19:09:00 - [8] - Quote CCP may have intended to change the game on us and it could turn out to be a good change. Bitten used a trick on me recently that was, most likely, brought about by the new scan system giving me a false sense of security. At the end of the day, it just means that people don't have to dedicate alts to probe-scan the system. What now?
TurAmarth ElRandir Hiigaran Bounty Hunters Inc. Surely You're Joking 45	Posted - 2013.07.04 19:57:00 - [9] - Quote Otumi Karasu wrote: Best possible route I can think of would be to simply remove the WHs from the discoveryscanner. Have Wormholes only show up on the actual probescan and not on the "probeless" systemscan. This would however make it far easier to distinguish WH from other sigs without having to resolve, bringing back a function of the old Deep Space Probes albeit in an different (slightly easier) way. I would prefer to find the Discovery Scanner is unable to function in W-space... IE turn the damn thing turned OFF in W-space to give us BACK the reality of living in Unknown Space... I hate the gods damned Billboards screaming "HIDDEN ** HERE -->" all over the place... Exploration Themed Expansion replaced 'exploring' with Roadside Billboards... TurAmarth ElRandir** HBHI VP & Salvage Operations Director Fly Safe and see you in the Sky =/\|)= http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/
Oxandrolone Bite Me inc Bitten. 197	Posted - 2013.07.04 20:47:00 - [10] - Quote This is a stupid mechanic, they need to get rid of it. Just another thing implemented without any thought to wh'ers. They need to hire a wormhole knowledge dev

Jack Miton Semper Ubi Sub Ubi 2089	Posted - 2013.07.04 22:49:00 - [11] - Quote +1, new system is dumb.
Moo Moocow Bite Me inc Bitten. 10	Posted - 2013.07.04 23:00:00 - [12] - Quote I can't help but not like the new system... Removes abit of the unknown/risk from W-space.
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 1488	Posted - 2013.07.04 23:09:00 - [13] - Quote Call me old school. I still pop probes. I don't trust the damn thing
Van Kuzco Stryker Industries Ocularis Inferno 68	Posted - 2013.07.04 23:32:00 - [14] - Quote I've been saying this ever since the discovery changes went onto SiSi. The fix is so incredibly simple. Just put a 30-60 min delay on new wormholes showing up on the discovery scanner. Make it for all signatures if that's easier. This achieves the goal of new players being able to see what's out there without providing instant intel to risk adverse wormhole dwellers.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1265	Posted - 2013.07.04 23:38:00 - [15] - Quote it's funny how i predicted this thread and others like it the minute i learned about the probing/scanner changes... "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Kalel Nimrott EG CORP Mass Overload 324	Posted - 2013.07.04 23:40:00 - [16] - Quote Wspace is supposed to be hardcore, then, discovery shouldnt work properly. IE, only when you enter a system or not at all. I'm fine with both, but not with what we have now.
Van Kuzco Stryker Industries Ocularis Inferno 68	Posted - 2013.07.05 00:02:00 - [17] - Quote Kalel Nimrott wrote: Wspace is supposed to be hardcore, then, discovery shouldnt work properly. IE, only when you enter a system or not at all. I'm fine with both, but not with what we have now. Yeah I also proposed the idea that the discovery scanner in WH only updates upon a session change.
Mr Kidd Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 1275	Posted - 2013.07.05 00:27:00 - [18] - Quote Derath Ellecon wrote: Call me old school. I still pop probes. I don't trust the damn thing Nor should you,it's buggy. Won't stop CCP from fixing it though. HTFU!...for the children!
Messoroz AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 395	Posted - 2013.07.05 00:48:00 - [19] - Quote The only one opposing this idea are the carebears.
BayneNothos United Electro-Magnetic Federation The Nightingales of Hades 12	Posted - 2013.07.05 02:02:00 - [20] - Quote Copy-Paste from what I said on TigerEars Cross post that forum link to another part of the Eve-O forums like the feedback or features section. Devs rarely look at the Wormhole section. I totally agree with almost everything you've said. If you're paying attention you can actually beat the incoming scout to their WH these days. Makes the whole thing feel a lot less dangerous. The only thing I disagree with you about is a rollback. I think positivity will trump negativity on this. Ideas to enhance the Discovery Scanner or tweak it to be unique in W-Space would be the better approach.

Casirio DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized. 478	Posted - 2013.07.05 02:11:00 - [21] - Quote Messoroz wrote: The only one opposing this idea are the carebears. Its brought more noobs in to wspace what's so wrong with that?
Dex DelaVenuto Sky Templars 10	Posted - 2013.07.05 02:47:00 - [22] - Quote For a small time WH operator, NOOOOOOO don't change the new mechanic.
Si Wang-mu Stay Frosty. 0	Posted - 2013.07.05 06:13:00 - [23] - Quote Agree with Penny. Some of the magic of wormhole space (and other space) has been lost with the introduction of the discovery scanner. I'd like to see it removed from wh space and reduce discoveries in normal space. With the new probe mechanic it is easier than ever to deploy scanning probes so why add an all-encompassing dir scanner? Stay Frosty --áThe Corporation for Gentlemen of Notorious & Questionable Quality
Dorrann Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 13	Posted - 2013.07.05 11:04:00 - [24] - Quote I dont live in a wormhole, but I agree with you completely. How is it "exploration" if you are told where to look ? A more accurate term would be Recovery, because all we're doing at the moment is following a pointer that tells us something is there. We've lost the admittedly time consuming and often disappointing step of searching a system to see if anything is there. I LIKED doing that, I felt like I was DISCOVERING stuff when it popped up signatures after the first scan. I get that they want more people to use Exploration tools, but I feel that they have gone to far in trying to make it accessible to people. The old system was harder (not by much) but it was a LOT more rewarding. This new system doesnt even require the Click to know there is Bacon around.
Karak Bol Crepuscular 88	Posted - 2013.07.05 11:20:00 - [25] - Quote Short: NO! Long: No, because I like to see if its worth scanning or not, saves me time. The new explo system is great. Keep it and adapt.
Kalel Nimrott EG CORP Mass Overload 324	Posted - 2013.07.05 12:34:00 - [26] - Quote Karak Bol wrote: Short: NO! Long: No, because I like to see if its worth scanning or not, saves me time. The new explo system is great. Keep it and adapt. I'm gonna answer you in your terms. Short: NO! Long: You are lazy.
Xen Solarus Inner 5phere 441	Posted - 2013.07.05 12:43:00 - [27] - Quote This arguement is countered by CCPs changes to sites, making grav sites warpable without the need for probes, just as with the combat sites. People running as soon as new wormhole appears is nicely balanced by this fact. All you need to do is wait cloaked or offline in the system till they feel safe again (or till they collapse the entrance), and it's free season again! I'd personally argue that people are alot more vunerable now than with the old system. With the old system, sure you could get into a hole with only a 5-10 second window where you appear on the D-scan, but soon as you slapped those probes out everyone knew you were there. Now you don't even need the probes, you can just bide your time and strike at the perfect moment, and they'll be taken completely unawares! Post with your main, like a BOSS!
Rroff Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 279	Posted - 2013.07.05 12:50:00 - [28] - Quote I'm half and half on this one, being able to see the position of sigs in space on the overlay scanner (atleast for me) gives a system more depth and feel and makes it feel a bit more like your in space.
Kalel Nimrott EG CORP Mass Overload 324	Posted - 2013.07.05 13:42:00 - [29] - Quote Im not against the overlay. Its how is implemented in wspace.
Setsune Rin Bite Me inc Bitten. 36	Posted - 2013.07.05 14:52:00 - [30] - Quote all it needs is a rule in W-space that it will only scan on login and system change, not when a new sig appears it only impacts wormhole pvp, nothing else daytrippers, chain scanners etc can still see all sigs when they jump in people carebearing just have to be a little more vigilant



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