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Announcement:Tonight's fleet fight in Z9PP-H

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 23	Posted - 2013.07.05 01:04:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Falcon wrote: the decision was made to remap all other systems away from the node on which Z9PP-H was located in order to improve responsiveness and playability. [...] This was put into play at 22:14 UTC, however due to an error in communication, all systems including Z9PP-H itself were moved from the node, which caused everyone who was in the system and was involved in the ongoing fleet fight to be disconnected from Tranquility. Given that this was done via an engineer/admin-executed command - ie: Z9PP-H was not remapped because of an error in the running code, but was remapped as part of a process specifically initiated in order to remap systems - my question is this: Why are system states, including ship position, aggression and criminal timers, and other critical information relevant to the state of gameplay in that system, not immediately backed up as part of the remap process? Presumably, if other players had been in a small gang fight in the other systems on the same node, remapping those systems under the current system would drop their aggression timers as well. If this had been a crash, then the failure to log an archive image of the state of the database might be understandable, but as this was a deliberately initiated process, why does that process not include an automated archiving of the state of the node for potential rollback if necessary?
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 23	Posted - 2013.07.05 04:42:00 - [2] - Quote Rockstara wrote: CCP falcon: do not let this discourage you from remapping nodes. If we're really lucky this will encourage you to develop a "live reinforce" mode. That fight was raging for hours ... it would surely have benefited from a remap even sooner, we shouldn't have to bring 2200 into system before you consider it. And the risk that sometimes that will crash the node is one I am perfectly willing to accept. I could care less about any one particular fight. We all win if you are more proactive about improving the response of the systems we are fighting in. Keep calm and carry on. Completely agree there - if anything, this incident should serve as an impetus to develop code that will handle live system migration, and do so automatically based on cluster load, without the engineers having to step in at all.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 23	Posted - 2013.07.05 06:01:00 - [3] - Quote Hrald wrote: OldWolf69 wrote: Hrald wrote: Barramuda wrote: Hrald wrote: Are you willing to pay more for your subscription and jack up the price of PLEX to pay for unplanned hardware upgrades? Well,. I can understand why you agree that mistakes like this are acceptable and indeed expected to happen from time to time. You mean like the previous times the server has gone down and saved CFC caps? Stop being such man-children about it. Additionally, you're not even addressing my point. Additional hardware costs money, where is that money supposed to come from? From all the money they got from subs till now? Wait, what? They will spend them all on renaming skills? Okay, what profit margin are they running in order to allocate funds for the acquisition of water-proof servers to prevent future CFC tears? How much will all this new equipment cost? How well will it be utilized, as much of space is empty for long periods of time? Well, to be fair, I'm not sure putting every system on its own node would really be the right answer, even if it were feasible - you'd just have systems able to handle larger fights, and so you'd have larger fights. Which in turn would strain the system again. A lot of it seems to go back to what CCP has already acknowledged to be a poor choice of design language when the game was originally coded (python). Unfortunately, converting the entire game engine away from python into something that can take advantage of modern multi-threading processors (which python really doesn't do well, if at all) would also be a significant expense/effort. So, in the end, it's likely that we're all going to have to accept that just like TEST and the CFC, CCP is Bad At EVEGäó.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 25	Posted - 2013.07.05 08:41:00 - [4] - Quote Heptameron wrote: It was shaping up to be a war changer and CCP 'insert hopefully now jobless engineer here' screwed it up. But hey, the clock keeps ticking and in the forward direction so not much point dwelling on might have beens. You know, I'm not gonna call for the guy's head - it was a typo. Who among us hasn't had one? As someone who's recently lost my job, I'm very, very wary of calling for someone's family to suffer because of a typo. Instead, I'm hoping the process will be changed - that safeguards like a simple 'hey, that system doesn't exist' error message will be put into place, as well as 'Are you SURE? Y/N' confirmations. More importantly, I'm hoping the code will be changed so that if* something like this does happen again, basic IT practices like archival data imaging and restoration rollbacks will be implemented so that whoever the guys on the field are, they're not denied the fight they worked hard to get. * - if? Who am I kidding? when.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 27	Posted - 2013.07.05 09:18:00 - [5] - Quote Heptameron wrote: Arrendis wrote: You know, I'm not gonna call for the guy's head - it was a typo. when. Typo? Seriously?? They weren't typing in u instead of you, not hitting the jump instead of bridge button, they were messing with live revenue generating production systems. Typo. Seriously. Q9PP-H instead of Z9PP-H. No matter how serious the repercussions of the erroneous entry, it's still a typographical error - a typo. Quote: I'm head of IT for a company in Europe and my dudes don;t even get to change a desktop memory stick without a checklist and a sign off. When it comes to front end changes they are jumping through hoops like proverbial circus monkeys. There is no way something like this should ahve happened without someone reviewing the change before it was implemented, standard change management methodology. There's no way the software should have allowed it - the data to be matched in what amounts to a 'search' position ('perform X process to all but Y') couldn't be matched. The process was told what amounts to 'as long as you don't see X, go ahead', which is insane - if nothing else, if you've got a syntax that says 'do this for all values that do not include Y' then you want to preserve all of the values that do include Y just in case there's an error. I spent 8 years writing code for administration of an online game - you have to know you're going to get PEBKAC problems. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know here, either. The software tools that you give to your server admins have to able to protect you from an attack of the Flying Monkey Brigade - and that's what really failed here. Data entry problems are more common than dead carebears during Burn Jita. And they get worse under pressure. You have to build tools that prevent pissant little errors from becoming massive operational faults that lead to unexpected system failure.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 27	Posted - 2013.07.05 09:20:00 - [6] - Quote Andski wrote: Endeavour Starfleet wrote: I call on the leaders of the CFC to make a statement that shows they do not agree with some of these forum whiners. I can't speak for other alliances but as far as the gsf directorate goes the general attitude is "cripes CCP" I can't speak for the leadership of FA, but within my own corp, the general reaction has been "D'oh. Let's hope they fix their ****."
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 28	Posted - 2013.07.05 10:26:00 - [7] - Quote Tialano Utrigas wrote: Mad Ani wrote: I had 5564 people tuned in the stream when the node crashed... Quite embarrassing, but I didn't blurt about it to the viewers. Showed them another fight in the meantime, however that was pretty bad. I lost all the viewers as the fight had ended http://www.twitch.tv/mad_ani/c/2524548 I think 2200 of those tuned in were from CFC, TEST, and N3 who were actually fighting in the fleet but trying to work out what was actually going on in the battle! Or was that just me? I know I was watching the battle on both screens, yeah. It was interesting to hear commentary like 'I have no idea why the heck N3 and PL haven't already dropped supers on this...'
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 30	Posted - 2013.07.05 11:49:00 - [8] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Maybe you should have watched Boat on themittani.com stream, because he knew why. I was in Vily's fleet. I knew why. Mad Ani didn't.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 30	Posted - 2013.07.05 11:53:00 - [9] - Quote Fenrix Mernher wrote: CFC were committed in several sub cap fleets, capitals were dropped to create a situation where to continue holding the field you would need to dreadnoughts. Except we were rather clearly holding the field without dreads. There is a definite point where subcaps can no longer hold the field. TEST & Co. did not manage to bring us to that point. I would have been interesting to see them do it.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 30	Posted - 2013.07.05 12:12:00 - [10] - Quote Fenrix Mernher wrote: Arrendis wrote: Fenrix Mernher wrote: CFC were committed in several sub cap fleets, capitals were dropped to create a situation where to continue holding the field you would need to dreadnoughts. Except we were rather clearly holding the field without dreads. There is a definite point where subcaps can no longer hold the field. TEST & Co. did not manage to bring us to that point. I would have been interesting to see them do it. As far as I am aware there was another slowcat fleet about to bridge in. That would have pushed you fairly close to the edge of needing your own caps. Also, people who think a CCP employee should lose his job and have a career ended because of a mistype and communication error at 11:30pm local time should probably quit eve and do the rest of the community a favour. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you. The issue is clearly CCP quality control, not the human error of one engineer. Close to it, yes, but there were also additional megathron fleets forming, as I'm sure you're aware. As for CCP quality control... I'd say rather the problem lies in the systemic controls that allow a single engineer's miskeyed command to have this effect, and I'm optimistic that CCP will rectify that situation. It's the only one that needs rectification, really.

Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 30	Posted - 2013.07.05 12:19:00 - [11] - Quote Tialano Utrigas wrote: Goons were just as fortunate as TEST I'd say, rather, that TEST was just as unfortunate as the CFC - we all lost the end of what really was a kickass little brawl.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 30	Posted - 2013.07.05 12:22:00 - [12] - Quote Fenrix Mernher wrote: It would have evolved into an interesting fight, I mean N3/PL/Test clearly got dunked pretty hard, and it was an important morale booster for CFC. So hopefully it isn't the last of it's kind. Oh, definitely. I mean, just from what's been said here, we can all see that there were a number of levels of gambit and counter-gambit being strategized on both sides. Would've been fun. Ah well. Next time, eh?
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 30	Posted - 2013.07.05 12:51:00 - [13] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Arrendis wrote: Fenrix Mernher wrote: It would have evolved into an interesting fight, I mean N3/PL/Test clearly got dunked pretty hard, and it was an important morale booster for CFC. So hopefully it isn't the last of it's kind. Oh, definitely. I mean, just from what's been said here, we can all see that there were a number of levels of gambit and counter-gambit being strategized on both sides. Would've been fun. Ah well. Next time, eh? They really had us right where they wanted us. Haven't they always?
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 30	Posted - 2013.07.05 13:20:00 - [14] - Quote Ban Bindy wrote: Seriously, both parties will be propagandizing for yearsabout how this battle was already decided in favor of Brand X, if ony the servers had not gone down. What a hoot. GRRR! BRAND X?!?!?! NEVAAARRR!! BRAND X WILL FALL BEFORE TEH AUHSUM POWAR UV TEH LEEDING BRAND!!! DETH TO BRAND X!!!
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 30	Posted - 2013.07.05 13:55:00 - [15] - Quote Fenrix Mernher wrote: Alavaria Fera wrote: They really had us right where they wanted us. I never suggested that at all No, it's just something of a running joke. :) Quote: Wait CFC leadership are seriously telling you this was going to be the death blow to the defence of fountain? Or is this something you've theorised yourself? Personal speculation only, I'm sure.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 30	Posted - 2013.07.05 19:07:00 - [16] - Quote Barakach wrote: Here's an analogy. Say you're in the medical field and on your chart that you're supposed inject embalming fluid into your live patient? Would that send up a red flag and be like... hmm.. that might kill someone. Or do you just blindly keep on trucking and be like... ooops, human error. It's a poor analogy - what you're describing is an active agent reviewing erroneous instructions and not questioning them. What happened here was a passive agent received erroneous instructions, and didn't have the capacity to question them. The miskeyed command is more analagous to the harried nurse making a checkmark on the chart and having it be long enough to appear to give incorrect instructions... which a lazily coded automated system then processes without asking for clarification. The actual miskeyed command entry is an extremely minor mistake - and frankly, one that 'anyone who is a programmer or admin in a real enterprise' should be anticipating and creating failsafes to and confirmation checks to filter out. As you say: Quote: How does a tool that handles system moves, offer nary a complaint when someone tries to erroneously shutdown and transfer a critical system? That's the 'unacceptable' mistake here.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 31	Posted - 2013.07.05 21:39:00 - [17] - Quote Well, at this point, we're out of normal business hours in Iceland (I believe it's 9:37 there now?) and while I'm not expecting 'Dear Capsuleers, this is exactly what happened, which processes were invoked, and precisely what we've already done to fix everything, YAY!', I have to admit, in a thread we were specifically asked to use so that our questions could get addressed, it's a little disappointing to not even have so much as a 'you guys have raised a number of perfectly valid questions, and the team is looking at them, dont' worry' update. Or did someone accidentally remap the forums?
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 31	Posted - 2013.07.05 22:21:00 - [18] - Quote Paul Leonard Kersey wrote: Eve DEV that can't type a system name in properly, or be bothered to double check needs to be fired Why should it be left to the guy typing to doublecheck, though? Why can't the software, with full access to the entire database of system names, run that half-millisecond check for him when he enters the command? Keystroke errors happen. Good tools have safeguards to protect against them. This was not a good tool.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 32	Posted - 2013.07.06 07:01:00 - [19] - Quote Julian Sandcastle wrote: The usual way for a normal MMO player to protest a policy or behavior they don't approve of is to cancel their subscription, which would impact CCP's bottom line. From what I gather from this thread, the bulk of the communities involved in this war are able to scrape by such that they no longer have to pay for the monthly subscription. If you no longer impact their bottom line, other than to add overhead to the system, aren't the people participating in this war basically at the mercy of CCP to provide what ever game play they desire? You do realize that every PLEX, every EVE Time Code, all of it is ultimately purchased from CCP, right? So the guys buying PLEXes in Jita? They're contributing to the demand for PLEXes. If there was no demand, prices would drop. As it is, you can be fairly sure that pretty much every PLEX purchased for real money and put to market eventually sells. What does that mean? That means that by creating the demand and giving PLEXes the value they have, the people who are PLEXing their accounts (and I, among others, am not) are contributing to CCP's bottom line, albeit indirectly - they're creating the demand that other people are then motivated to fill in order to convert real-world cash over to ISK.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 32	Posted - 2013.07.06 07:05:00 - [20] - Quote Mohr Cowbell wrote: Arrendis wrote: Well, at this point, we're out of normal business hours in Iceland (I believe it's 9:37 there now?) and while I'm not expecting 'Dear Capsuleers, this is exactly what happened, which processes were invoked, and precisely what we've already done to fix everything, YAY!', I have to admit, in a thread we were specifically asked to use so that our questions could get addressed, it's a little disappointing to not even have so much as a 'you guys have raised a number of perfectly valid questions, and the team is looking at them, dont' worry' update. Or did someone accidentally remap the forums? I hate to tell you this, but FA is just a meatshield for Goonswarm. I hate to tell you this, but I don't see where your comment has any bearing on what I'm saying. Please, expound upon your point and tell us all how FA being a meatshield for Goonswarm (and sir, I fly Logi, I am nobody's meatshield. I am a space-priest for Goonswarm) is at all relevant to CCP offering not even so much as an acknowledgment that the very questions they asked us to keep to this thread have, indeed, been posed. I await your enlightened and educational response.

Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 32	Posted - 2013.07.06 08:01:00 - [21] - Quote Prelate Hucel-Ge wrote: Ever looked at a sov map before? Yeah. FA is literally only warm bodies in fleets and a nice big buffer for Deklein. That's literally the only reason any human being tolerates Zagdul for more than about five seconds. And again, I ask: how is this at all relevant to the point that CCP has asked us to post questions in this thread so they can be addressed, and has failed to provide even a token acknowledgment that questions have been posted? I mean, I assume you have something in mind relevant to the topic, and aren't simply spouting off attempts to provoke some kind of indignant response. So, please, proceed, Prelate. Share with me the wisdom that I clearly lack, that I cannot see how your comment addresses the point actually being replied to, please.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 32	Posted - 2013.07.07 17:36:00 - [22] - Quote Sadly, I suspect that will get a response...
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 32	Posted - 2013.07.07 22:44:00 - [23] - Quote Guttripper wrote: *has a light bulb blink above his head... You know CCP, perhaps if the poor hamster server farm did not have all those flashy graphics being used for each and every star gate jump across the universe and the Tron like effects for scanning each and every system for every player, perhaps the server would have been quite cool and stable and this potentially epic battle could have played out. You do realize that all of the graphics end of things is handled client-side by your computer, right? That as far as the server is concerned, there is no difference between making you wait at a loading screen and letting your home computer show you the Dr. Who tunnel? Server-side, the only thing going on is a session change. Unless CCP's completely insane, it's the same thing for system scanning - the server tells your machine where things are, just like it always has, and your client handles the visual sweep and displaying the anomalies in space.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 32	Posted - 2013.07.09 04:06:00 - [24] - Quote The whole of the weekend, and now another weekday, without even an acknowledgment from CCP that after they asked for questions in this thread, we've put questions in this thread.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 32	Posted - 2013.07.10 01:54:00 - [25] - Quote Well, we're now into Wednesday in Iceland (albeit the middle of the night) and still no acknowledgment in this thread. I wonder, if I start yelling, will there be an echo? ...cho? ...cho? crap.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 32	Posted - 2013.07.10 05:33:00 - [26] - Quote Unless it doesn't sink. Still nothing at all from CCP. Not even a forum rep poking their nose in.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 32	Posted - 2013.07.10 08:46:00 - [27] - Quote Miss Altiana wrote: Grown ups crying in epic proportions, a advise goons ! Yes, because expecting accountability from those we pay for a service, and to not simply be ignored and dismissed out of hand in a bait-and-switch bit of pablum to brush concerns about CCP's IT failings, these things are 'crying'. Tell me, do you feel the same way when your mechanic screws up your car? Do you just shrug and keep paying the computer technician who loses all your data? The landscaper who manages to destroy your yard?
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 32	Posted - 2013.07.10 18:33:00 - [28] - Quote Miss Altiana wrote: Seriously, im not realy sure how serious you are, but, maybe you should go turn your computor off, leave the blue and red pills alone, its pixels !... there is like proportions to things, and i rather see this as a game, so if the game designers screw up my game, well id go outside, read a book , wait for them to fix it ?, and if i had my land scaper destroy my "digital" garden... you know, im sure you never made a mistake ? It's not the initial mistake I take issue with. It's the 'please put all your questions in this thread so they can be addressed' and then never even acknowledging the existence of the questions. I've got over ten years of experience in customer service and tech support, and that's just amateur hour crap. Saying 'hey, it's just a game' is a lovely thing, but I'm not complaining about the game. **** happens, things break, CCP tries to fix them. That's all fine. I'm complaining about the customer service. Please stop conflating the two.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 32	Posted - 2013.07.10 18:35:00 - [29] - Quote CCP Falcon wrote: There's thing thing, it's called the weekend, and it's that time where a lot of our development team spend time with their families after working long hours all week. There's this thing, it's called Wednesday. It means that it's been more than 48 since 'the weekend' and this is the first time there's even been an acknowledgment that the thread still exists.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 32	Posted - 2013.07.10 18:40:00 - [30] - Quote Ace Uoweme wrote: So a limit in the zone wouldn't matter, because they physically play on their own realm, but virtually connected to other realms. Did you really just say someone does something on the internet physically?

Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 32	Posted - 2013.07.10 20:04:00 - [31] - Quote Ace Uoweme wrote: Considering the content, yep! Just checking. Carry on, then!
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 32	Posted - 2013.07.11 20:26:00 - [32] - Quote Falcon; Thanks for the update - seriously. I know I harped on the 'hey, how about acknowledging the thread' thing, but I do appreciate that when things started moving, they moved quickly, efficiently, and you've kept us in the loop on that process.
Arrendis Hephaestus LLC Fatal Ascension 32	Posted - 2013.07.11 20:28:00 - [33] - Quote Xolve wrote: Ace Uoweme wrote: I play both games. What's your excuse? Scared of a goblin hurting your pee pee? Do you have to connect the two in every post you make? But... but... they're already connected! Look at a map of WoW! There! Right there between the two continents! The MAELSTROM. Clearly, the Minmatar have established a presence on Azeroth.

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