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Soulita
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Posted - 2005.12.04 00:39:00 -
[1]
Moved from EVE General Discussion to Ships & Modules - Jacques'
Quite a few threads lately about HACs and their high prices.
What I keep wondering is why do people buy HACs at these prices?
What makes HACs better then BSs? Why not just buy a BS instead?
One strength of HACs is being able to enter some plexes that BSs cant enter, so I understand if plex runners buy HACs - but what are their other strengths compared to a BS?
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Azuran
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Posted - 2005.12.04 00:43:00 -
[2]
Well one thing would be the fact that they are faster than bses. And, they have much better resists. The resists is a huge thing, an HAC can tank an entire level 4 mission pretty much if the are tanked for the right damage types, whereas a battleship would get torn to shreds...
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Captain Phoenix
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Posted - 2005.12.04 00:43:00 -
[3]
What I keep wondering is why do people buy HACs at these prices?
Very few BPs of the HACs are released so the owners of them can charge huge prices for them.
What makes HACs better then BSs? Why not just buy a BS instead?
They are faster and more agile than battleships and they have higher resistances.
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Selena 001
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Posted - 2005.12.04 00:45:00 -
[4]
They also offer advantages with speed and agility (over a BS), and have the resistances against certain races that remove or at least reduce the need for players to fit hardners (freeing up mid or low slots for other items).
Some also offer unique advantages not found on BS's (e.g. the ishtars ability to control drones above the 45km max range).
___________
There was a siggy here...
Where did I put that damned thing... |
Soulita
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Posted - 2005.12.04 00:49:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Soulita on 04/12/2005 00:52:21
 Originally by: Azuran
Well one thing would be the fact that they are faster than bses. And, they have much better resists. The resists is a huge thing, an HAC can tank an entire level 4 mission pretty much if the are tanked for the right damage types, whereas a battleship would get torn to shreds...
Hehe, Azuran & Captain Phoenix you replied at exactly the same time 
On the resistances and ability to tank, a correctly setup BS will be just as strong (if not stronger) then a HAC. I guess speed and thus the ability to dictate fight distance is a good point though.
Edit: And interesting, never realized the ishtar can send drones out more then 45 km
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Azuran
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Posted - 2005.12.04 01:02:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Soulita
Edited by: Soulita on 04/12/2005 00:52:21
Originally by: Azuran
Well one thing would be the fact that they are faster than bses. And, they have much better resists. The resists is a huge thing, an HAC can tank an entire level 4 mission pretty much if the are tanked for the right damage types, whereas a battleship would get torn to shreds...
Hehe, Azuran & Captain Phoenix you replied at exactly the same time
On the resistances and ability to tank, a correctly setup BS will be just as strong (if not stronger) then a HAC. I guess speed and thus the ability to dictate fight distance is a good point though.
Edit: And interesting, never realized the ishtar can send drones out more then 45 km
Actually, I beat him . But another thing that you should consider is... an HAC is often inherently stronger in many ways, and as such you can beef it up in other categories. This is what was mentioned before, because you already have high resists, you don't have to put (as many) hardeners on, and therefore you can fit more damage mods on, or do something else with those saved slots. A correctly setup HAC can definitely give a BS a run for its money, obviously depending on how each is setup. It comes down to how much money you are willing to spend, and how much you are willing to lose. A BS is definitely good, and it will insure for _nearly the full_ amount. This is as compared to a HAC where you will literally lose like 80 mil or so everytime one gets blown up (on the ship itself) because it only insures for a much lower amount.
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Zungen
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Posted - 2005.12.04 01:03:00 -
[7]
their main weakness is their cap...run into a nos bs and your hac goes poof :P
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Azuran
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Posted - 2005.12.04 01:12:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Azuran on 04/12/2005 01:12:51
Welcome to the world of NOS ishtars  , which can be equally uber, but yeah if you run into a BS that is full of noses then you can get royally screwed. But, I wouldn't say that is a problem that only applies to HAC. Though they do have less cap, if you have your lovely shield tanking raven and a vampirix comes along you'd be in the same situation. Also this isn't really limited to noses, my favorite evil thing would be to have some noses and then to use one of these. Use up 600 of your cap, but make 600 of their cap go away too. I think that would be more effective against HACs since a battleship could run it without totally wiping out its cap before the HAC runs out since the BS will have more...
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Soulita
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Posted - 2005.12.04 01:22:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Soulita on 04/12/2005 01:24:16
Actually one of the reasons I started this thread is I had some test fights against various HACs (On SiSi).
All of those setup for short range fighting (20km and under) died very quickly to my dom. I was using 2 heavy NOSes on them, plus webber, guns and drones.
The only HAC that did ok was the cerberus, since we started the fight at 100km and i had to get within range and couldnt.
Still I start to understand that HACs do seem to have some good strengths. (I just had a very bad impression of them after they did so badly against the dom)
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Wesley Harding
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Posted - 2005.12.04 02:23:00 -
[10]
Their weapons are less skill intensive too. Large guns require a bit more training to specialize in.
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slothe
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Posted - 2005.12.04 03:09:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Wesley Harding
Their weapons are less skill intensive too. Large guns require a bit more training to specialize in.
wrong
quicker to train for a bs than a hac
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slothe
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Posted - 2005.12.04 03:13:00 -
[12]
Look
forget the stats theres only two real reasons why people fly HACS over bs -
1. they look so much cooler
2. people think there l33t
in reality bs > hac everytime. no doubt.
also you get INSURANCE with bs. which is nice.
there is no logical reason to fly a HAC over a bs, no matter what anyone says. for example i challenge anyone to my bs v you and your friend in a hac. i would win.
overatted, overexpensive, overused. mehh
anyways enough said.
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slothe
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Posted - 2005.12.04 03:15:00 -
[13]
sorry my comments so far have been for pvp.
in npc hacs rule. deimos < guristas etc.
so they do hae one strength i guess.
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.12.04 03:23:00 -
[14]
well... hacs are a bit faster which comes handy while ganking around or fly solo...
But with good set of instas, BS can do same... for instance typhoon, which is supposed to be crappiest bs, will perform better than deimos :) Even if you fit heavy neutron blasters on, and 3x heavy nosfs :)
Price... 1/3 :)
Originally by: WildCard
"NOW Flyzone"
before
after
Be back in a year or so |
Gronsak
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Posted - 2005.12.04 03:56:00 -
[15]
BS > hac at every point
tempest, megathron, apoc all > eagle at sniping
the only advantage eagle has is that it can hit cepters with more likelyhood at under say 70km
but the 3 bs named have a lot more DPS than the eagle
blastertron, autocannon tempest, close range geddon > deimos and vagabond
close range hacs suffer greatly from nos and neut, they CAN NOT tank at all well (unless fully kitted to tank and deal dmg secondary, then dmg is very poor
ofcourse the bs have > dps than those hacs
cruise raven, bombers, sniper bs > cerb
only advantage of cerb is that its got no tracking issues, so does the same dps at any distance
why do ppl buy hacs for suck sums of isk
simple, ppl hear that they are uber and wish to try it, every day a new noob with lowish skills buys the hac book and wants to test a hac
Real Advantage of hacs
1.easyer to train for than a BS
2. some hacs fill a VERY specific role that BS cant do
example the eagle, it is able to hit cepters and frigs very well at medium range where BS suffer. but then again a harpy would be better yet
why hac prices will stay > BS
1.the noobs that just bought the hac skill want to test them out, thus demand always increasing
2. the noobs that loose hacs in combat, u ******* retards are the main cause of hac prices being what they are
3. they are UBER NPCING ships. deimos/ishtar great against caldari and galante rats cos of crazy kin resistances. same appies to easch hac and their rats
all in all, a bs does the job of a hac better and cheaper
only times hac > bs is for hostile solo runs
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shadyfox99
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Posted - 2005.12.04 04:31:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Gronsak
BS >
why hac prices will stay > BS
1.the noobs that just bought the hac skill want to test them out, thus demand always increasing
2. the noobs that loose hacs in combat, u ******* retards are the main cause of hac prices being what they are
3. they are UBER NPCING ships. deimos/ishtar great against caldari and galante rats cos of crazy kin resistances. same appies to easch hac and their rats
Tbh, i havent seen a lot of "noobs" flying around PVP'ing in HAC's. so i dont think they are the reason HAC prices are high.
I sold my ishtar because the risk wasnt worth it for me. Yes it is an awesome ship, but for me, it couldnt do anything better than my Apoc or Megathron can do.
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2005.12.04 05:11:00 -
[17]
Originally by: shadyfox99
Originally by: Gronsak
BS >
why hac prices will stay > BS
1.the noobs that just bought the hac skill want to test them out, thus demand always increasing
2. the noobs that loose hacs in combat, u ******* retards are the main cause of hac prices being what they are
3. they are UBER NPCING ships. deimos/ishtar great against caldari and galante rats cos of crazy kin resistances. same appies to easch hac and their rats
Tbh, i havent seen a lot of "noobs" flying around PVP'ing in HAC's. so i dont think they are the reason HAC prices are high.
I sold my ishtar because the risk wasnt worth it for me. Yes it is an awesome ship, but for me, it couldnt do anything better than my Apoc or Megathron can do.
we have killed many many many hacs with t1 guns fitted (ie low SP pilots)
seem rail deimos with named 200mms, seen ishtars that can only contraol like 12drones
seen cerbs with named launchers
generally u can see players as yung as 6months in hacs. so there is a big noob population in hacs
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Lygos
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Posted - 2005.12.04 05:16:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Lygos on 04/12/2005 05:16:30
HAC also have considerable ease with ignoring frigates/slapping even when fitted for BS/HAC hunting.
They are popular because they seem to have the most universal capacity despite highly particular outfitting.
Ideally, (properly fitted) tech2 BS will unravel this comforting thought in its entirety. I just hope cruisers don't go by the wayside afterwards. Maybe T2 BS besides Gallente should have tiny drone bays, or keep pressing the advantage of large drones for fighting large targets..
Targetting Sig Variance -- "Everything I love is combustible." |
Wesley Harding
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Posted - 2005.12.04 05:49:00 -
[19]
Originally by: slothe
Originally by: Wesley Harding
Their weapons are less skill intensive too. Large guns require a bit more training to specialize in.
wrong
quicker to train for a bs than a hac
So you spend more time training medium turrets then large? That was the point I was making. The rankings on their weapons, missles, and what not.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.12.04 05:56:00 -
[20]
in pvp HAC are scapels, battleships are cudgels..
if you fight 100vs100 lagfest crap pvp, battleship is your best bet
if you fight stuff like empire wars, and small gang warfare, HAC are much more mobile and pack a lot of firepower and can swarm battleships and destroy them very quickly..
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Campaign to remove shield hardener effects, they suck!! |
Zungen
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Posted - 2005.12.04 06:08:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
in pvp HAC are scapels, battleships are cudgels..
if you fight 100vs100 lagfest crap pvp, battleship is your best bet
if you fight stuff like empire wars, and small gang warfare, HAC are much more mobile and pack a lot of firepower and can swarm battleships and destroy them very quickly..
unless its a domi fleet :P
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Spartan III
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Posted - 2005.12.04 06:12:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Spartan III on 04/12/2005 06:12:01
I think Jim Raynor (his post is 2 posts above mine) says it quite well.
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- Jamie (Aka) Spartan III
Hardener Stacking Penalty Explained |
Gabriel Karade
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Posted - 2005.12.04 08:45:00 -
[23]
At the end of the day HACs are just that...still a cruiser and I think some people forget that, thinking they are flying an 'I win button' 
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
operated
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Posted - 2005.12.04 11:31:00 -
[24]
one thing you guys forgot to mention is the sig hac have and bs have . Hacs are great in hostile teritorys where bs will jump in a camp and get wtfpwnd as the hac cause of its small sig , agility and speed will probly get out .Only thing what makes bs kill hacs is nos and neuts . dual webs kill hacs to but trained hac pilot will try stay out of that range or will test if guy has webs fitted .
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Jim Steele
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Posted - 2005.12.04 11:36:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Soulita
What makes HACs better then BSs? Why not just buy a BS instead?
BS's are slow, and there is also the "coolness" factor in owning (and being able to fly one).
Any 1month old character and his dog can fly a BS. HAC are for players with a little more experience (you really need alot of skills to use them effectivly) rather than noobs just wanting to make isk doing level 3's.
Author of "The Apoc Guide" |
Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.12.04 11:43:00 -
[26]
Little more expirience?
Then youll loose that HAC in like first engagement. Real HAC pilots are usually expirienced both in terms of SP and in terms of actual pvp combat skills and combat expirience.
-=-
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Arshes Nei
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Posted - 2005.12.04 13:46:00 -
[27]
People tend to underestimate the importance of pve in peoples everyday lives, even if you only want to fly BS for pvp, somehow you have to make your money and nothing does pve as nicely and safely as a HAC with the right resistances.
The mixture of speed, relatively small sig size, very nice firepower and a tank able to put a dual repping apoc with hardeners to shame(oc only against the rats you have naturally high res against) make these the ideal ships for pve. Dont compare the firepower of a megathron to a deimos in a hypothetical gank fitting, compare the firepower of a tempest tanked for a lvl 4 laser enemy based deadspace mission to a muninn/vaga fitted for the same and you see the light.
One major point for me is also the cheap costs of actually fitting the ship, cruiser sized mods are just so much less expensive then BS sized mods.
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.12.04 14:07:00 -
[28]
BS > HAC
Try buying a tier 1 BS like a Typhoon that has speed. THen fit the extra slots it has over the HAC with speed mods. Still got a sick amount of power to fit guns and a tank and a NOS.
Plus BS is a LOT cheaper than a HAC considering how much money you get from insurance.
The difference between PvP and PvE is simply Nos.
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.12.04 14:15:00 -
[29]
Typhoon is BS, means its still alot of slower then HAC in speed/agility/warp. BS drags more attention as its slower and its much easier to catch even without inty.
-=-
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R31D
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Posted - 2005.12.04 14:21:00 -
[30]
Originally by: slothe
sorry my comments so far have been for pvp.
in npc hacs rule. deimos > guristas etc.
so they do hae one strength i guess.
Fixed?
HACs agility and their ability to get around quickly is a great asset. Also, they can deal with frigates and still do good damage to all other targets, something a BS has problems with
Free bumpage for all |
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