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Market Scamming is an Exploit

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3597	Posted - 2013.07.07 20:58:00 - [1] - Quote Kalliel Egnald wrote: Cipher Jones wrote: So, we've illustrated how its a scam. Since not even the OP has attempted to illustrate how its an exploit can we close this rumor thread? bypassing the in game rule-set for buy orders due to the limitations of the player wallet. i think i illustrated the exploit quiet well. the argument many of these people are discussing is the severity of said exploit, and most are dismissing it as something that is harmless due to its limited prevalence currently in the game. What part of the in-game ruleset for buy orders is being bypassed? You have not illustrated any such thing. Nope, it's simply not an exploit. Buy orders can be canceled or filled at any time for many reasons. When investing, your protection from this is knowing how much the item is worth and avoiding overpaying. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3597	Posted - 2013.07.07 23:13:00 - [2] - Quote sabre906 wrote: Margin trading adds nothing of value to a mmo - there's no point in creating this grey area/can of worms. Not everything irl should be imitated into a mmo, not everything irl makes good game mechanics, margin trading is one of them. Nothing's grey, nothing's wormy, and you've yet to make a coherent argument for why "Margin trading adds nothing of value to a mmo" Margin Trading is an incredibly useful skill for traders. Especially newer ones who have less capital to work with. The "Margin Trade" scam (ignoring the fact that scams are perfectly legitimate gameplay in EVE) has very little to do with the margin trading skill, and everything to do with tricking people into buying overpriced goods (exactly the same as the "Trit for 5 ISK/unit" contracts). If you didn't buy something for more than it's worth, you'd simply shrug when the first buy order failed and sell to the second, as you still have your stuff. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3597	Posted - 2013.07.07 23:41:00 - [3] - Quote sabre906 wrote: Mytai Gengod wrote: In the real world, where this margin trading borrows it's name and seems to be loosely modeled after, the firm that is providing the margin will immediately sell your positions, without concern to sell price, to meet your obligations and may permanently close your account. Some times there can be charges filed if there was additional fraudulent behavior related to the margin trading. Abusing this market tool is risk free in Eve. I don't expect nor want CCP to remove it as some are asking, but consequences for those abusing it would make sense. That's my point. CCP doesn't want the mass banning and/or SP removal that's necessary to implement consequence. It's not worth doing. Not everything irl can be translated sucessfully into a mmo to make good game mechanics. Margin trading is a prime example. This can of worms should be thrown out, not opened and made into soup... Good thing RL margin trading has not been introduced into EVE. RL Margin Trading: Borrow Money, buy things with it. EVE Margin Trading: Only put a portion of the cost of an order into Escrow, Pay the whole amount before being able to actually buy anything. The only thing they have in common are the words "Margin Trading" and one of those words is dependent on an uncommon phraseology in the RL example. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3597	Posted - 2013.07.08 00:13:00 - [4] - Quote Tippia wrote: And what can of worms are you talking about? You have still not explained this. This can. On contracts for 1 ISK. Split it up and sell to my 2 ISK/worm buy order. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3597	Posted - 2013.07.08 02:04:00 - [5] - Quote Kalliel Egnald wrote: The post is intended to create discussion, hence it being in the general discussion page. The discussion is based on the practice of intentionally putting yourself into Default utilizing margin trading and debating on it being an exploit. Nobody's going into default, as no debt is created, so there's no debt that can't be serviced. The same thing happens if you go to WalMart, get to the cash register, and don't have the money to cover your bill. You're not in default because there's no debt to default on. You may find better traction with your ideas if you don't start with premises that are false on their face. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3597	Posted - 2013.07.08 07:18:00 - [6] - Quote Utzam wrote: Two changes are needed. The first is that the entire escrow amount should be fair game for the seller to take from the buyer in the event a margin buy order defaults. The escrow amount should be at least 25-40% of the total value of the buy order. The amount in escrow should be visible in the market. It is. It is. Why? The seller cannot lose anything due to a margin trade failing. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3603	Posted - 2013.07.09 02:10:00 - [7] - Quote Frying Doom wrote: The only think I find broken in all of this is that people have effectively agreed to pay an amount, that they don't actually have. They have done no such thing. You're confusing an offer to treat with a contract. Quote: And the bank doesn't slap them with a huge fee. They are. A failed margin order costs you the broker fees while you receive no goods. Quote: I mean come on a bit of reality here, they should be handed huge bills from the bank and have their trading shut down until they pay the bank. Lets face it, banks know how to make money and if scamming is acceptable in EvE why wouldn't the banks do it. Where in this process do you see the banks being involved? Banks are involved in RL margin trading because it involves trading with borrowed money. In EVE, there's no money being borrowed, so no banks involved. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3604	Posted - 2013.07.09 04:26:00 - [8] - Quote Frying Doom wrote: Yes your wallet balance and transactions are not conducted by a third party at all. A failed order cost is hardly a cost, as you would still pay it on a successful order. Hit them with a fine. It would make at least for a funny isk sink. No, they're conducted by brokers. Who are paid in fixed fees. The Broker's fees are a cost in both instances. The failed order fails to provide you with the benefit (the transaction) you paid your broker for. Again, they are hit with a fine. They do not get the benefit normally received from paying the broker's fees, so those fees are wasted. Besides that: 1) Nobody (besides the person whose buy order failed) hurt by a failed buy order, so why fine someone for something that doesn't hurt anyone? 2) The character you're suggesting fining is insolvent. They have no ISK to take (otherwise the order would be filled). So how would you fine them? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3604	Posted - 2013.07.09 06:06:00 - [9] - Quote The Marketer wrote: I hear you. I may be wrong but can you also comment on my proposed solution since you seems to know about it? If a margin trading buy order Minimum trading volume does not even permit any transaction of the amount of ISK currently available in ESCROW, then the order should instantly vanished. That would fix all problems. Easy, logic, you have an order and cant fill the minimum of it, its out. Simple. 1) Escrow is always depleted first, so your proposal would result in "legitimate" margin orders always vanishing after ~25% of the order being filled. 2) You can sell things to buy orders at prices lower than they're offering. (This means you can steal the escrow out from a margin order if you're more clever than they are.) So you can virtually always complete a transaction for the amount of ISK remaining in Escrow. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3604	Posted - 2013.07.09 06:59:00 - [10] - Quote Frying Doom wrote: 1)The moron who fell for the over inflated buy order is hurt. They still have their stuff. The price they paid for the items is irrelevant to the question of whether or not they're hurt by their inability to sell their goods to a specific market order. Quote: 2) Does your bank fine you if you are insolvent? Of course they do, you overdraw, you get hit with a fee, You write a bad cheque, you get hit with a fee. Now you suddenly get money in your account, who gets paid first....The bank. The brokers fee is for placing the order, which they did and got paid for. Not having the funds there you are not penalized for in any way, and you should be...Mostly so we can see a massive influx of scammers tears Except that the market escrow system is not a bank. It is an escrow system. Aside from that, you can't overdraw on your wallet, nor can you write a bad checque, so there's no fee to charge even if it were. You are penalized. Your order fails, meaning that you need to spend the broker's fee again in order to have a chance at purchasing the items you want to buy. If you had the ISK to cover, you'd have the items and wouldn't need to pay the broker's fee a second time. If you want to hurt "margin" scammers, snake their escrow, or cause their orders to fail using items purchased at their actual value (so you can later sell those items at a profit or at no loss). (In quotes because the scam is complete once you've purchased the item, not when you try to sell it as you seem to think). This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3604	Posted - 2013.07.09 07:37:00 - [11] - Quote Daisai wrote: If you use the filter to ignore buy orders which have bee placed with margin trading the only person who losses money in such a case is the seller since he/she has less buy orders to sell to. So the people who use this skill without the scamming are hardly effected by this. Anyway like i said, i dont care if they change this skill im just giving a suggestion. It doesn't cost you anything if you try to sell to a buy order who can't cover their escrow. So why would you need to filter buy orders placed with margin trading? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3604	Posted - 2013.07.09 15:20:00 - [12] - Quote Frying Doom wrote: The scam requires both the buy order and the sell order. If the buy order was not there people would not buy it in the first place. As to negative wallet balances, maybe you should tell RMTers that their wallet isn't negative So now you're claiming that using the Margin trading skill (something that is explicitly legal to use) should be punished the same way as RMT? Oookay... There are plenty of ways to trick people into buying overpriced goods. The margin trading skill is only one of them. The scam is done once you've bought the overpriced good. That is the point where the scammer has your money and you have a worthless item. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3607	Posted - 2013.07.10 01:24:00 - [13] - Quote Felicity Love wrote: ... waits for the part of this thread where we all sit around the campfire, join hands, light a spliff and sing "Kumbaya"... Sorry, I'm a chemist. I prefer to consume my intoxicants through blotter paper. What are hands? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3607	Posted - 2013.07.10 02:40:00 - [14] - Quote Tippia wrote: RubyPorto wrote: Sorry, I'm a chemist. I prefer to consume my intoxicants through blotter paper. What, so DMSO cocktails are not good enough for you? PffGÇª Not being a horse... This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3607	Posted - 2013.07.10 04:35:00 - [15] - Quote Tippia wrote: RubyPorto wrote: Not being a horse... GÇªas if that was ever a good argument for some people not to inject/ingest/inhale whatever was on hand. After all, how else are you going to discover novel artificial sweeteners? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3609	Posted - 2013.07.11 02:19:00 - [16] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Inokuma Yawara wrote: Geez! I thought the subject was settled when he spoke up. Some people don't understand the word "NO" What does Nitric Oxide have to do with anything? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3612	Posted - 2013.07.11 07:52:00 - [17] - Quote Harry Forever wrote: CCP does not fight scamming, so here you go, I fight it with words, this is what scammers are begging for So, instead of actually doing something about them (contrary to popular belief, you can hurt margin scammers), you decide to pick the least effective way possible to fight them and spend your time and energy doing that? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3612	Posted - 2013.07.11 08:22:00 - [18] - Quote Harry Forever wrote: you are getting there, your "just a game" excuse is the only thing foolish, RL money is involved to play it and you can get scammed loosing plex, thats costs money you know EULA wrote: PROPRIETARY RIGHTS A. Ownership of Software, System and Game As between you and CCP, CCP is the sole and exclusive owner of the Software, System, Game and Game Content (as defined below). The Software, System, Game and all Game Content are protected by law governing copyrights, trademarks and other proprietary rights. CCP reserves all rights not expressly granted herein. The Game is comprised of, without limitation, ... characters (and items, currency, objects and attributes comprising or associated with a character or an Account) ... B. Rights to Certain Content You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, CCP used EULA. It's Super Effective. The PLEX you lost has no monetary value (and, even if it did, does not belong to you). The ISK you lost, no matter the source, has no monetary value and does not belong to you. The only way these things have a monetary value is if you are engaged in RMT, and even then, they do not belong* to you.* Quote: check all games on this planets there are rules, know why? think about it, you are not allowed to betray in tennis, football, chess nowhere, there are reasons for that, you kids don't understand Look up Diplomacy. It's one of the best and longest lived boardgames around, and was favored by JFK and Kissenger. Central to its gameplay is betraying the alliances you make with your friends. Harry Forever wrote: words are the most effective, trust me So which margin scammer have you harmed or otherwise dissuaded from their chosen EVE profession with these words of yours? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 3612	Posted - 2013.07.11 08:33:00 - [19] - Quote Omar Ser-Amon wrote: I think the main issue here is that a player should be safe in the belief that the ingame market system as it stands there is reliable. That means, if there is a buy order, you will receive payment after its fulfillment. And you do receive payment any time you fulfill a buy order. In the case of uncovered escrow, the order fails to be fulfilled, so the buyer gets nothing (and loses the market fees), and the seller loses nothing (they still have their stuff and are free to sell to the next buy order). Players should be aware that orders may disappear at any time for any number of reasons. How is the order failing due to lack of escrow any different from someone else selling to the order moments before you try to? Or the buyer canceling the order between the time you buy the item and try to sell it? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon

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