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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Utzam
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.07.08 06:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tippia wrote:[quote=Gilat Sumat]The mechanics protect both parties and no-one loses anything.
This is the source of the problem. Buy orders need to be treated more like RL contracts for two reasons.
1. The amount the buyer places in escrow is never at risk, leading to these types of margin trading scams and unbalancing the 'market PVP' in favor of the buyer.
2. Whether or not a trade is a margin trade is not visible to the seller, nor is the amount in escrow.
The current set of margin trading scams are abusing the game mechanics. Raising the bar and reducing the profit that someone can make off margin scamming will handle the problem without removing the benefit of margin trading.
Two changes are needed. The first is that the entire escrow amount should be fair game for the seller to take from the buyer in the event a margin buy order defaults. The escrow amount should be at least 25-40% of the total value of the buy order. The amount in escrow should be visible in the market.
These changes are self-balancing and when the scammers fail to see profit in this exploit once it's fixed they will move to something more worthwhile like jet-can mining in Tama  . |
Utzam
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 10:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
BoSau Hotim wrote:
GÇób. Intentionally creates contracts that cannot be completed through normal game mechanics or abilities.
This makes a remarkably clear case that margin trade scamming is against the rules.
The current system protects those who abuse margin trading by withholding information relating to buy/sell orders. Buy/sell orders should not be special cased in favor of the scammers.
Simple solutions do exist to this problem.
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Utzam
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.07.08 11:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mag's wrote: Plus this mechanic is using normal game mechanics, so no sorry. But nice try.
Cyno's in the middle of the sun also use normal game mechanics. |
Utzam
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tippia wrote:What problem? The buyer is never at risk (beyond losing a lot of cash on nothing) but neither is the seller. The seller doesn't particularly need to know the state of someone else's wallet because if it doesn't cover the sale, nothing happens and no-one gets hurt.
Yes, your making a great case for their being a problem. No-one getting hurt is a relative distinction based on your assumption that the buyer can walk away from their buy order after the seller accepts.
The fact that this is even a scam is amusing because ultimately the seller should be walking all over them for putting up such a grossly overpriced buy contract. This is a well documented part of contract law. The current implementation in Eve is incomplete.
Tippia wrote:
The first two are already the case..
False. If the buy order defaults the buyer gets to walk away instead of being forced to give the seller his entire escrow amount. The key here is that the buyer loses his escrow to the seller.
Tippia wrote:
Look, if you don't even understand the mechanics involved, maybe you should resist trying to claim they are problematic or an exploit since you quite simply don't know whether or not it is working as intended due to your unfamiliarity with said mechanics.
Very familiar actually. Understanding how the mechanics work and realizing that Eve's implementation is faulty are not mutually exclusive.
Quote:This makes a remarkably clear case that margin trade scamming is against the rules.
exploit
n.
to take advantage of (a person, situation, etc.), esp unethically or unjustly for one's own ends
Tippia wrote:
GǪexcept that it's not a contract and that it can be completed through normal game mechanics and abilities
con-+tract
n.
An agreement between two or more parties, especially one that is written and enforceable by law.
Buy orders certainly qualify as contracts by any reasonable definition. I wouldn't confine yourself to such a static rule set. Laws change all the time, and it's about time CCP fixed this. |
Utzam
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tippia wrote:
So again, you're showing that you're not familiar with the mechanics involved. You can keep claiming that you are, but then you belie this claim with your suggestions. If you're familiar with the mechanics, why do you keep saying things that aren't true? Why do you ask them to implement measures that are already in place?
It's quite accurate to refer to this situation as a default. That the process of a default is not fully implemented by Eve does not negate that categorization.
Tippia wrote:
The key here is that the entire escrow amount has been paid out, just like you asked. There is no more money in escrow. The buyer has already lost it all to the broker who has already transferred it all to the seller. The order is not closed until the escrow amount has been exhausted.
False. You can't have it both ways. Also, consider we're talking about margin trade scams where the minimum buy amount is often equal to the total quantity on the buy order.
The seller absolutely does not receive the escrow amount since the game will cancel out the order prematurely due to the buyer not having sufficient ISK for the full trade.
As the seller I expect to receive the entire amount in escrow (e.g. if they are selling something at $2M that normally costs $1M and have 50% in escrow on a buy order for 1000 units where they can only pay for 500 based on the current escrow, the seller exchanges 500 units at the $2M unit cost for the full amount in escrow).
If I as the seller have 1000 units and meet the requirements for the order, I should walk away with $1B and still have 500 units left over.
Tippia wrote:
So again, you're showing that you're not familiar with the mechanics involved. You can keep claiming that you are, but then you belie this claim with your suggestions.
You're troll has no power here.
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Utzam
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.07.08 16:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So your not paying attention or being unfamiliar with the market mechanics does not make it an exploit.
You seem to have a vested interest in keeping this exploit around.
The fantasy world you live sounds awesome. I'd like to subscribe to your RSS feed.
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