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New vs Old players, skill pre reqs

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Hoshi	Posted - 2005.12.06 03:42:00 - [1] While the skill system is mostly setup nicely with diminishing returns the higher and higher pre reqs of the new ships and equipment creates a fairly large gap between new and old players. Now it seems CCP at least say they want keep the gap small, here is a quote from the EVENEWS interview with Oveur: We also have a number of other measures that will be introduced over time, such as Boosters and lower prerequisites for new skills, and having more level 4 requirements and fewer level 5 ones.. If this where true it would be very good but looking at the pre reqs for the t2 battlecrusiers this comment seems very far from the truth. To just get into one of those ships you need 9 skills at level 5, several of which are high rank for a total of 6.8m skill points. And that is just to be able to undock. I would like to know CCPs reasoning behind these skill requierments, specialy in light of the above quote.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.12.06 03:59:00 - [2] If you don't have around 10mil in support skills you will get owned putting a T2 BC to work. Big ships are not for noobs, you will get owned the first time you try to do something slightly hard with it. I, don't, think, you, trust, in my self-righteous suicide.
Soldier 001	Posted - 2005.12.06 04:34:00 - [3] There's a reason it requires lvl 5. So people earn it. Show patients and get to where they want to. Most people go to lvl 4 and then train other stuff, it's the people who want to specialize that actually 'earn' the right to fly the ship. Same as drones, to get to 6 drones you need to get 5 first then go for 6 etc..
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.12.06 06:58:00 - [4] Agreed Hoshi, Some of the new content looks soooo far away for new players. I have an alt with 12.5mill SP and some of the new stuff looks waaayy far away. I cant skip hac's and go stright to t2 bc's because I have to trainer cruiser V and hac 4. (I think) Even though all my support skills are perfect, I still have to climb the hac tree. Wheres the specailization in that?
Roxanna Kell	Posted - 2005.12.06 09:24:00 - [5] Originally by: theRaptor If you don't have around 10mil in support skills you will get owned putting a T2 BC to work. Big ships are not for noobs, you will get owned the first time you try to do something slightly hard with it. stop scaring them like that. www.eve-defence.com
Lord WarATron	Posted - 2005.12.06 10:03:00 - [6] Well, its true. Several people buy a zelot to find it is useless without the supporting skills to use one properly. I say make the minimum requirements the same as the supporting skills otherwise there is little point. And I say that as a char who bought his first apoc without engineering 5/electronics 5 :) --- Order Now! Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour Msg me - 500mil - 7 day backlog
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.12.06 10:29:00 - [7] Originally by: Deja Thoris Agreed Hoshi, Some of the new content looks soooo far away for new players. I have an alt with 12.5mill SP and some of the new stuff looks waaayy far away. I cant skip hac's and go stright to t2 bc's because I have to trainer cruiser V and hac 4. (I think) Yup, but the mk2 project has made T1 a lot more useable. And you don't need T2, you just need to use a ship class higher then your target. If you want to kill Interceptors and AF's you use a T1 cruiser, if you want to kill HAC's you use a T1 BS. I, don't, think, you, trust, in my self-righteous suicide.
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.12.06 10:54:00 - [8] Originally by: theRaptor Originally by: Deja Thoris Agreed Hoshi, Some of the new content looks soooo far away for new players. I have an alt with 12.5mill SP and some of the new stuff looks waaayy far away. I cant skip hac's and go stright to t2 bc's because I have to trainer cruiser V and hac 4. (I think) Yup, but the mk2 project has made T1 a lot more useable. And you don't need T2, you just need to use a ship class higher then your target. If you want to kill Interceptors and AF's you use a T1 cruiser, if you want to kill HAC's you use a T1 BS. Heres my line of thinking. It's a game. I want shiny new toys. Of course I dont need them. Flying a hac to get to a t2 bc is just skilling for the sake of skilling.
Haram Zada	Posted - 2005.12.06 12:17:00 - [9] I can actually forsee HAC's costing more than HABC's, simply due to the severe shortage in the numbers of people able to fly them.
Jin Entres	Posted - 2005.12.06 19:05:00 - [10] To an extent, I agree. Players start out with the need to train a lot of basic skills like (in categories) engineering, electronics, mechanics and navigation. And even before that, you have to build a base for your training with learning skills. On top of that, there's the skills to fly a ship and get it's ship bonii plus the skills to use appropriate weaponry (these are what we generally call specialization). As players advance to bigger and better ships (not meaning the same thing), the basic support skills must be kept on par with the training (until they become satisfactory and competitive with most players). The need for these support skills exists for every player, regardless of specialization (alts and non-combat carebears excluded). And until that satisfactory level is reached, the ability of the player to specialize is limited. In a way, it is specialization - in basics. However, the word competitive is misleading and suggests a balance issue. Combat in EVE is not all that skill-dependant. Fittings, tactics and numbers have a greater weigh in the outcome. Also, I want some truly unique ships like the T2 BC (which demands an almost three month specialization even if you have the HAC skills) that require specialization and investment even for the vets. Otherwise you'd have people over certain amount of SP capable of flying everything. And that's not fun. As for the T2 BC's in particular, I think their Command (leadership) role and charisma being the primary attribute for a big part of the training is a really good thing (I might be a bit biased because I'm Intaki ). They will because of that primarily be used in their role much more than as simply Mk II HACs.

Ghoest	Posted - 2005.12.06 19:14:00 - [11] Hoshi is completely off. You have to compare the potential benifits of these new high skill craft. Yes they are awesome for group skills but you cant expect to be able to do that as a newb. As compared to other craft for straight up fighting they are a step up but not amazing. Specialized craft DO take high skills. But you dont need a specialized craft to compete effectively in EVE.
Jaabaa Prime	Posted - 2005.12.06 19:15:00 - [12] Hmm, what can I say to this. Well for one thing the so called "vets" have to invest a lot of training time to get into one of these puppies too. Maybe not as much as a new player, but don't forget that BCs are positioned as "mini battleships" and the T2 variants should require a load of training. I guess we can expect a very similar thread about fully fledged T2 battleships requiring insane amounts of training and being seemingly "way out of reach" for new players when they do eventually come out. To put it in a nut shell, high end content requires a lot of skills at high levels which equals long term dedication in terms of playing EVE. And skill levels is something that ISK simply can't buy. ---------
Jin Entres	Posted - 2005.12.06 19:20:00 - [13] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime And skill levels is something that ISK simply can't buy. Actually you can. Around 100M ISK / 1M SP is the going rate for characters, fully supported by CCP.
Jaabaa Prime	Posted - 2005.12.06 19:22:00 - [14] Originally by: Jin Entres Originally by: Jaabaa Prime And skill levels is something that ISK simply can't buy. Actually you can. Around 100M ISK / 1M SP is the going rate for characters, fully supported by CCP. True, duh, I forgot about that, sad but true ---------
Hoshi	Posted - 2005.12.06 21:01:00 - [15] Originally by: Ghoest Hoshi is completely off. You have to compare the potential benifits of these new high skill craft. Yes they are awesome for group skills but you cant expect to be able to do that as a newb. As compared to other craft for straight up fighting they are a step up but not amazing. Specialized craft DO take high skills. But you dont need a specialized craft to compete effectively in EVE. The field command version are awesome for solo play as well. But that is not the point. The point is tha fact that diminishing returns of a a skill at level 5 is not true anymore when having said skill at level 5 is a forced req to get into a specific ship. I just took the BC as an example of the extrems, but any t2 ship would fit. Now while I don't think even the AF or inty skill reqs are in line at least the training here is not that bad and I can live with it. What I can not live with is the fact that for every new thing CCP implements the reqs are becoming higher and higher, in contradiction to oveurs quote above. Another thing that irritates me are the fact that several of these skills are not even used when you are stitting in the ship that requiers them. Several of these skill requierments are there as a time sink and nothing else and forcing people to train them is in my oppinion no different from the level grind of many other games.
Ghoest	Posted - 2005.12.06 22:17:00 - [16] Diminishing returns doesnt apply to obtaining a specialization then - I think thats good. You dont need to specialize though in Eve so I dont think it hurts noobs.
Jideo	Posted - 2005.12.06 23:21:00 - [17] Originally by: Hoshi Now it seems CCP at least say they want keep the gap small, here is a quote from the EVENEWS interview with Oveur: We also have a number of other measures that will be introduced over time, such as Boosters and lower prerequisites for new skills, and having more level 4 requirements and fewer level 5 ones.. As someone who didn't train advanced learning skills to 5, I take this statement as meaning the next tier of learning skills will only require advanced learning skills at 4.
Kesye	Posted - 2005.12.07 15:39:00 - [18] you can purchase skill points with ISK?
Hoshi	Posted - 2005.12.07 15:45:00 - [19] Originally by: Kesye you can purchase skill points with ISK? Yes and no, depends on how you look at it. You can buy characters with isk, just take a look at the sales forum. Going price is around 100m isk per 1m skill points.
Kesye	Posted - 2005.12.07 15:49:00 - [20] wish there are ways to boost learning rate with ISK. like Hiring a tutor haha.

R3aliti	Posted - 2005.12.07 16:20:00 - [21] Edited by: R3aliti on 07/12/2005 16:25:47 Actually, don't worry about training to level five. When the reason (module/blueprint requirement) says it requires level five, just wait the 48 days that it would take to train the level and they will have changed the requirement to level 4. This has happend to me twice now - train the level 5, (48 days) look at the spec requirement and it has been changed to level 4 with no notice.
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.12.07 17:24:00 - [22] Originally by: R3aliti Edited by: R3aliti on 07/12/2005 16:27:16 Edited by: R3aliti on 07/12/2005 16:26:23 Actually, don't worry about training to level five. When the reason (module/blueprint requirement) says it requires level five, just wait the 48 days that it would take to train the level and they will have changed the requirement to level 4. This has happend to me twice now - train the level 5, (48 days) look at the spec requirement and it has been changed to level 4 with no notice. What spec requirement? Sounds like poor advice to me tbh.
Hoshi	Posted - 2005.12.08 12:18:00 - [23] It seems are pleas are not going totaly unheard. The skill reqs for t2 BCs have changed slightly and does now only need Squadron Command Level 4 instead of level 5. This will cut down the training time by around a month. But this might not be final. Tux said on irc it is possible that it might change back again.
without	Posted - 2005.12.08 12:34:00 - [24] tbh new paying accounts should get all basic learning skills to lvl 5 for free, as a gift to the new commers. i mean when someone starts what do u usually suggest they first train. the learning skills to lvl 5 and the advanced learning skills to lvl 4 this way it would only take a week for them to get advanced learning skills to lvl 4. then they can start training something usefull its only 1mil SP but would improuve noobs lives a lot. and i dont think anyone would complain if the new commers got 1mil SP for free.
Stribog	Posted - 2005.12.08 12:52:00 - [25] Originally by: without tbh new paying accounts should get all basic learning skills to lvl 5 for free, as a gift to the new commers. i mean when someone starts what do u usually suggest they first train. the learning skills to lvl 5 and the advanced learning skills to lvl 4 this way it would only take a week for them to get advanced learning skills to lvl 4. then they can start training something usefull its only 1mil SP but would improuve noobs lives a lot. and i dont think anyone would complain if the new commers got 1mil SP for free. QFT It takes ~2 months to train the learningskills atm. Sick.
Haram Zada	Posted - 2005.12.08 14:09:00 - [26] You know what I say? Simply remove lvl5 requirements from skills.
Enterprise Yasari	Posted - 2005.12.08 16:33:00 - [27] My personal opinion might be rather biased (being a newb and all) but in any case I felt the need to reply anyways. For the most part - in most games the long wait time can be the major deterrant, and Eve for the most part handles this somewhat well. However there is my own opinon of the matter. That being - that making only T2 ships have the reqs. that require Level 5. This the reason being that Level 4 in comparison to 5 is much shorter - and much more in tune with T1 ships. This makes the "basic" T1 ships easier to access in less time for newbs - however if they want to specialize in a specific area, for the T2 counterparts they would be forced to train to level 5. But this may mean making such specialized ships such as AFs...HAFs...HABCs almost entirely Level 4/Level5 which may or may not be a bit disconcerting. However, by making things such as Frigates, Destroyers etc. etc. all the way up to Tier 1 BS's with Level 3/4 max for their reqs, it cuts down on the time for newbs to be more competitive with other, older players. But this doesn't necessarily mean that they will early on have omgwtheckjusthappenedpwned abilitys - because for ships, and especially larger ones as stated before the supporting skills as well as superior weapon specialization makes all the difference in the world. And indeed, I think something like paying customers would be much appreciated to get a mil SP to be alotted to their Learning. goes off and grumbles about waiting still for Learning skills to finish -Ent
Micklaine	Posted - 2005.12.08 22:17:00 - [28] Edited by: Micklaine on 08/12/2005 22:23:52 Edited by: Micklaine on 08/12/2005 22:19:09 This is so sad to see. Why should everyone be able to fly everything? I don't get the assumption. I'm excited by the huge training times of the new ships. Something to actually work for instead of getting it tomorrow. Oh and the comment about bcs needing the hac tree. Only half the new bcs require the hac tree--the ones that are meant for, um, assaulting things in a heavy manner ("field command"). The other half are based on logistics training ("fleet command"). Btw, I have a little over 2 million sps, so I'm not saying all this because I can get in the new bcs in a week. In fact, I calculated the training time for the field command bcs today and it would take me 197 days. Level 5 prereqs 4tw! EditI don't like the idea about giving learning skills for free. Not at all. I earned them why shouldn't everybody? There's nothing in the player's guide that says you have to do all the learning the first couple months. I have done a lot of learning in my 2+ months here, but it's not a requirement. Edit 2 That ****es me off that they lowered the reqs from squad command 5 to 4. As my corp mate said, why don't we just give them away? I know the requirements are still big, but seriously, take the skill time people. I guess the new titans should just require frig 2 so everyone can fly them. -Mick Just Micklaine. You know, like Madonna. Or Cher. Or other people who forgot to give themselves last names at character creation.
Arthmandar Valikari	Posted - 2005.12.08 22:28:00 - [29] I definitely have to agree with those who are in favor of keeping high skill trees. I am a young player/character (~3 months in game, total), so it isn't as if I'm one of the elite oldschool players. At the same time, having big goals that require big effort to reach is a big part of what makes this game fun in the first place. Additionally, it isn't as if being a new player is no fun -- or else nobody would stick around. There's plenty of things to do as a new player that don't require a brand new shiny tech II BC. And I agree with several above who argue that it is going to take a long time to be able to reasonably equip it anyway. I want one of these ships. And having to put in the insane training times to get it is part of the attraction -- they'll be rare, they'll be rewards for those who invest. Make it common == make it lame. Sure, I can't really use one for a year. So what? Is the game suddenly not fun anymore? No. CCP, please leave the high skill requirements alone.
Yossar	Posted - 2005.12.08 23:25:00 - [30] Originally by: without its only 1mil SP but would improuve noobs lives a lot. and i dont think anyone would complain if the new commers got 1mil SP for free. Are you new to the forums? Of course people will complain about 1 mil free SP. People will complain about anything.



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