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ArchenTheGreat	Posted - 2005.12.06 10:15:00 - [1] I recently borrowed money and bought a freighter to do some high scale trading. After training Freighter lvl1 I encountered some problems. Buy and sell orders are all low quantity. I can overcome buy orders by multiple buys (although it's boring to do such a repetitive stuff) but I can't sell my cargo the same way. After first sell price drop so much I must wait to next DT for price raise. I tried to put a sell order for a price I know will be after DT but it simply blocks price rise and order is never fullfilled. I can fit about 800k in cargo, sell orders are for about 12k items, buy orders for 40k. If I sell full cargo I would earn 30mil. But I can sell only 5x40k items in whole region per day (including 0.4 and lower systems) so it will take some time to earn this 30mil. And I must do it right after DT because in a few minutes buy order price drops to unusable level. What am I doing wrong? How should I trade using freighter? Maybe current market is unprepared for freighter NPC trading? Are there any plans to increase buy/sell orders amount in RMR? Are freighters made for trading or are they only alliance ship for moving corp stuff?
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2005.12.06 10:47:00 - [2] My guess is, perhaps this is intentional otherwise we have many rich billionaires running freighters 24/7? ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
robacz	Posted - 2005.12.06 10:48:00 - [3] I think frighters were not made for NPC goods trading, but many ppl use them that way, so I am sure there are tricks to make fortune with it. You have to admit it would be too easy if you could buy full freighter on station A, jump 5 jumps and sell full cargo at station B with 30 mil profit. Have you tried to sell at smaller amounts? I mean, if order is 80k, sell in 40k chunks? If I remember correctly, price never changed when I sold 2x40k or 60k of garbage to one order. But its just a guess.
ArchenTheGreat	Posted - 2005.12.06 11:18:00 - [4] Originally by: robacz I think frighters were not made for NPC goods trading, but many ppl use them that way, so I am sure there are tricks to make fortune with it. You have to admit it would be too easy if you could buy full freighter on station A, jump 5 jumps and sell full cargo at station B with 30 mil profit. It would be easy but not as much rewarding because of freighter being so slow in warp. If start and endpoint of route is far enough it wouldn't be quite time consuming. I see it balanced with hauler trading here. Of course the shorter the route the more profitable freighter trading would be. Quote: Have you tried to sell at smaller amounts? I mean, if order is 80k, sell in 40k chunks? If I remember correctly, price never changed when I sold 2x40k or 60k of garbage to one order. But its just a guess. I'll try it after DT. I tried to sell a few units (not 50% as you proposed) below order and it didn't work.
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2005.12.06 12:50:00 - [5] Originally by: ArchenTheGreat I'll try it after DT. I tried to sell a few units (not 50% as you proposed) below order and it didn't work. If I am not wrong, NPC markets work this way. Once you have sold everything off, the prices fluctuates between -30% to +30% (guessing) randomly. Sometimes, when you are lucky, you will get multiple +'s and sometimes multiple -'s before +'s. It's a jackpot market. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
ArchenTheGreat	Posted - 2005.12.06 12:56:00 - [6] Selling 50% didn't work - price has dropped. What should I do now? Should I try player market instead of NPC? Is there any other way to make this freighter work or should I sell it and return all borrowed money?
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2005.12.06 13:10:00 - [7] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 06/12/2005 13:12:47 Originally by: ArchenTheGreat Selling 50% didn't work - price has dropped. What should I do now? Should I try player market instead of NPC? Is there any other way to make this freighter work or should I sell it and return all borrowed money? I am not a freighter pilot so I can be wrong on this one. If you are planning to trade NPC market, I suggest you find a route that is very long 50+ jumps, and sell everything off from top to bottom or vice-versa (along the route that is). NPC market has smaller profit margin but it is all about bulk sizes. PC market has more volatile profit margin as well as more risk in losing more ISKs in case of price wars. Also, I did do NPC trading many times before but got bored because I was in a hauler and too many jumps for me. What happened was, I sold everything off at a station and sometimes the price went up a little and sometimes they go down. For me, it was more of a roulette and wasnt fun. I am into PC market these days probably, I can afford some ISKs to trade with but I only trade in very specialised hardware. HTH. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
FireFoxx80	Posted - 2005.12.06 13:50:00 - [8] TBH, making 30m a day, when some traders struggle to make 100k, is missing the point. 23? # Missile Tool # ex: P-TMC : USAC
ArchenTheGreat	Posted - 2005.12.06 19:02:00 - [9] Originally by: FireFoxx80 TBH, making 30m a day, when some traders struggle to make 100k, is missing the point. You can't argue like this. Freighter cost me 1.2 bil - it should return. I can make good money from running lvl4 missions but I expected more from trading.
FireFoxx80	Posted - 2005.12.06 19:40:00 - [10] Ok.. more constructive. The market seeding data was created way before Freighters were implemented. If you think a freighter can move about 100 industrial loads worth in one trip, it soon saturates the market. Increasing the volumes available will only line thw pockets of people who already have freighters, not those who have industrials. Hence the market is capped. 23? # Missile Tool # ex: P-TMC : USAC

ArchenTheGreat	Posted - 2005.12.06 23:38:00 - [11] Originally by: FireFoxx80 Increasing the volumes available will only line thw pockets of people who already have freighters, not those who have industrials. Hence the market is capped. I see freighter as a natural evolution from hauler. Big buy/sell orders don't take away opportunity for making ISK from smaller traders but make it easier for freighter owners. Looks fair to me. I will try do some trading for a week or two and than decide if I should keep this ship or sell it.
Hillesumos	Posted - 2005.12.06 23:54:00 - [12] I think you are too much concentrating on instant profit while trading is also about delayed profit especially for npc trade good.My fisrt advice would be to stop npc trading or do it at a margin since the potential profits are capped. Next given the huge volume u can carry u need to concentrate on the volume side of the market namely minerals and also ships. Theses stuffs are not easily carried because of the low margin they have or the high volume.U should try to move some of these stuffs around it might help. But then again, you will need to have huge volume of cash in hand to do it. A word of advice though, with trading and profit size of the ship do not really matter. I can do 30M profit per day trading and I will only use a nice inexpensive frig to do the hauling bit if any. U need to start to be creative in your ways to do things. happy trading.
Kaaii	Posted - 2005.12.07 11:08:00 - [13] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: ArchenTheGreat I'll try it after DT. I tried to sell a few units (not 50% as you proposed) below order and it didn't work. If I am not wrong, NPC markets work this way. Once you have sold everything off, the prices fluctuates between -30% to +30% (guessing) randomly. Sometimes, when you are lucky, you will get multiple +'s and sometimes multiple -'s before +'s. It's a jackpot market. correct'ish .. Originally by: Hillesumos I think you are too much concentrating on instant profit while trading is also about delayed profit especially for npc trade good.My fisrt advice would be to stop npc trading or do it at a margin since the potential profits are capped. Next given the huge volume u can carry u need to concentrate on the volume side of the market namely minerals and also ships. Theses stuffs are not easily carried because of the low margin they have or the high volume.U should try to move some of these stuffs around it might help. But then again, you will need to have huge volume of cash in hand to do it. A word of advice though, with trading and profit size of the ship do not really matter. I can do 30M profit per day trading and I will only use a nice inexpensive frig to do the hauling bit if any. U need to start to be creative in your ways to do things. happy trading. "..Id rather fall beside 10 lions, then stand with One thousand sheep.."
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.12.07 12:25:00 - [14] another option train to transport ships and move aorund low sec - join a corp that can provide escort etc. Id also suggest to get CCP interested in enhancing and expanding NPC trade goods with enw feeatures dynamic prices and voulmes and stations changing what they order on a few hour basis to create different opporunties is for freighter pilots to continue to do low margin high volume trading The overall impact will hopefull turn CCP attention off combat improvements moreso back to the NPC trade good , manufacturing and hauling agents and af ew other elements. The more that do something in this game the more CCP focus on it
Feta Solamnia	Posted - 2005.12.07 14:11:00 - [15] aaaargh, please no more NPC trading. Originally by: Oveur I have access to all market data. Believe me, we have not reached anything close to deflation yet.
Patch86	Posted - 2005.12.07 16:19:00 - [16] Correct me if im wrong, but arn't Freighters better used shipping LARGE commodities, such as, say, a selection of freshly made warships, that would be unfeasable to trade with industrials in any sensible numbers? Doesn't seem ever such a good idea to try and load it up with several million bottles of water and try find an insanely large buyer for it- it's just not how it works.
Lord WarATron	Posted - 2005.12.07 17:00:00 - [17] If you want to make money, use freighters for LVL4 Courier missions. The LP's you get will also help for quality agent offers. --- Order Now! Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour Msg me - 500mil - 7 day backlog
LJSilver	Posted - 2005.12.08 04:04:00 - [18] Originally by: ArchenTheGreat I recently borrowed money and bought a freighter to do some high scale trading. After training Freighter lvl1 I encountered some problems. Buy and sell orders are all low quantity. I can overcome buy orders by multiple buys (although it's boring to do such a repetitive stuff) but I can't sell my cargo the same way. After first sell price drop so much I must wait to next DT for price raise. I tried to put a sell order for a price I know will be after DT but it simply blocks price rise and order is never fullfilled. I can fit about 800k in cargo, sell orders are for about 12k items, buy orders for 40k. If I sell full cargo I would earn 30mil. But I can sell only 5x40k items in whole region per day (including 0.4 and lower systems) so it will take some time to earn this 30mil. And I must do it right after DT because in a few minutes buy order price drops to unusable level. What am I doing wrong? How should I trade using freighter? Maybe current market is unprepared for freighter NPC trading? Are there any plans to increase buy/sell orders amount in RMR? Are freighters made for trading or are they only alliance ship for moving corp stuff? Freighters was supposed to make empire to 0.0 sec alliance hauling a breeze for the great EXODUS... However, seems no one wants 1B isk on the line for that, so's they are now empire whoes. So, the great freighter gold rush is over cause the NPC routes are getting crushed... its the new trade lottery system... This was entirely predictable, so move on... ur freighter is supposed to be out walking the plank in low sec http://www.liketelevision.com/web1/classictv/longjohn/longjohn210.gif
TotensBurntCorpse	Posted - 2005.12.08 15:34:00 - [19] Hey, I have been a trader since day one of playing and frankly your on the right track but... 1) freighters are just too darn big to pick up at one base and sell all at another for max profits. 2) the NPC market recovers slightly during the day but treat the freighter as a ROUTE device NOT a A to B rinse and repeat delivery. To get from A to B you need to pass along many systems in between (ALL of which have deals to be had) 3) there are a few NPC commodities to trade in (BIG HINT - treat each REGION as a separate country where supply and demand of a good vary, if you buy in one you can sell in the other, and once there find a commodity for the return trip) 4) I have found only ONE "I win button" NPC commodity but I make only about 16mil for the short turn trip. There is INFINITE demand but only finite economic supply per reset. There are others but this one works for me. Typically I can do 4-5 hauls per nite for the 64-80 mil. Only every second day do i have goods for the return trip for a net of only 23mil / 2days. 5) LEARN trade skills for posting orders. Play the PC market if you can (requires a bank roll tho). 6) Delayed buying helps where u buy today and tommorrow and so on till you hit enough goods at that system/base to be worthy of a pick up (good for picking up low volume goods as well as sold loot). there are others that can be done. long and short... - big loads A to B unless PC bought will tend to be low isk yield. - running a ROUTE rather than a simple A to B makes you wheel and deal all the time rather than AFK jump. - using a secondary hauler to pick up side route loads helps quite a bit for isk/unittime. Go to trading forums and read trading 101 TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
Doe Jane	Posted - 2005.12.09 03:00:00 - [20] Edited by: Doe Jane on 09/12/2005 03:02:09 I have read this and I (the Real me, as I am an ALT)have seen a bit here and a bit there, no one station can truly buy a full freighter load anymore. The stations are space stations, they have 'worlds' to have goods shipped to. There are 'people' down there on those little balls of dirt that need stuff brought to them. ie There are oceans in which huge ships sail and bring goods to other lands. Well we should be able to bring those goods from other systems, regions, ...ect. Even for a Vet, what may see like a high amount of isk to a newer player is not to us. A skill can run any where from 45 mill to 350 mill. Where as a newer player skills cost less, hence the drive for us to be able to make more. There should be buy orders for Freighter goods, ie the station is looking to buy 450k on an item that is 2.0 m3 in size nothing less, and maybe nothing more, but a full load for there people on their ball of dirt that put them up in space to start with. Look What in your house, how much of it was made in the city you live in? Much of it came from another area of the ball of dirt (with a molten core)you live on? DEV's Please Take Note - The Beer You Drink Came From Where? B00BIES 4TW ----------- edit for ******* & stuff ... err boobies...

Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.12.09 03:11:00 - [21] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 09/12/2005 03:11:24 Originally by: ArchenTheGreat Originally by: FireFoxx80 TBH, making 30m a day, when some traders struggle to make 100k, is missing the point. You can't argue like this. Freighter cost me 1.2 bil - it should return. I can make good money from running lvl4 missions but I expected more from trading. You think 30m a day for 1.2 billion investment is bad?! That's full payoff in just over a month! The cost for a T2 BPO that makes that kind of cash is 5-7 billion. If anything freighters should make less. - Proud member of the [23]. The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
Nocturnal Avenger	Posted - 2005.12.09 11:59:00 - [22] Originally by: Dark Shikari You think 30m a day for 1.2 billion investment is bad?! That's full payoff in just over a month! 1200/30 = 40... And if you are satisfied with an interest rate of about 2.5% a day (no compound interest)... Well - aim a bit higher :)
Stratosfear	Posted - 2005.12.09 19:01:00 - [23] Originally by: Dark Shikari The cost for a T2 BPO that makes that kind of cash is 5-7 billion. If anything freighters should make less. If someone pays 5-7b for 30m per day BPO that's their problem.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.12.09 19:09:00 - [24] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 09/12/2005 19:09:50 Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger Originally by: Dark Shikari You think 30m a day for 1.2 billion investment is bad?! That's full payoff in just over a month! 1200/30 = 40... And if you are satisfied with an interest rate of about 2.5% a day (no compound interest)... Well - aim a bit higher :) You're misrepresenting the numbers a bit. How about 915% yearly simple interest? - Proud member of the [23]. The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
HostageTaker	Posted - 2005.12.13 19:22:00 - [25] RE: OP, you need to spend more time researching the regional markets, sounds to me like you've picked a crappy tradegood to shift. RE: Doe Jane, there are stations that sell and also buy tradegoods in volumes larger than that of a Charon Freighter; they require multiple trips and earn a lot of isk. There are trade routes that make more ISK per day than a Taranis BPO for example, you just have to put in the time to find them and have the bankroll to do them.
Theonlystd	Posted - 2005.12.14 09:03:00 - [26] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 09/12/2005 19:09:50 Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger Originally by: Dark Shikari You think 30m a day for 1.2 billion investment is bad?! That's full payoff in just over a month! 1200/30 = 40... And if you are satisfied with an interest rate of about 2.5% a day (no compound interest)... Well - aim a bit higher :) You're misrepresenting the numbers a bit. How about 915% yearly simple interest? Eh wow thats a nice return on an investment ------------------------------------------- Aye Spellcheck is beyond me along with propper grammer.
Vaaliant	Posted - 2005.12.14 19:31:00 - [27] Originally by: Theonlystd Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 09/12/2005 19:09:50 Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger Originally by: Dark Shikari You think 30m a day for 1.2 billion investment is bad?! That's full payoff in just over a month! 1200/30 = 40... And if you are satisfied with an interest rate of about 2.5% a day (no compound interest)... Well - aim a bit higher :) You're misrepresenting the numbers a bit. How about 915% yearly simple interest? Eh wow thats a nice return on an investment Which is also misrepresented because there are limited number of routes like that and a limited number of times those can be done per day or even per week. Its actually much more common to make about 30-100 mill a week with a freighter now days. With the costs of upcoming ship bpos heading into the multibillions (capships and t2 battlecruisers and well just any t2 ships in general) there really needs to be additional sources of steady income. I liked the original trading dynamic the game had, these days that dynamic seems to be gone.
WhiteTiger	Posted - 2005.12.14 19:38:00 - [28] Still the idea that a 2.5% DAILY return on investment is too low is slightly crazy --- at least if you expect it to be as simple as flying from point A to B in high sec space. Anything of this nature will cause problems with the game economics because although for the most part you can't offically trade isk for $$ and $$ for isk, it still happens. And if you could easily make these kind of returns there would be plenty of people willing to play dodge the CCP police to get this kind of return.
Hiigara Soban	Posted - 2005.12.24 11:45:00 - [29] Edited by: Hiigara Soban on 24/12/2005 11:45:44 I think freighters have ruined a part of trading. I am finding other ways to trade and make decent money, but the routes I use to run with my regular hauler have been completely ruined because of the freighters. I use to make almost 40mil an hour on a good day with on one route in particular. Now days, with that same ship on that same route, I'd LOSE about 800k an hour.
Zekks MarKeys	Posted - 2006.03.21 04:01:00 - [30] Just wait till planets enter the mix there will be MASSIVE demand for goods then, all those little people are gonna want loadsa stuff lol Hail the little people do not dispair the freighters are comming form an orderly queue now don't push



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