It's a GAME! Do what you want.

ISK is NOT the endgame. Only beginners think that.
If you like mining, why don't you continue?

ISK is THE endgame. You have isk, you pay for your accounts; make pvp ships; do everything and anything you want because you can afford the loss.

No its not. Fun is.

But if you want ISK, then missioning is neither the way to go. You will have to find another profession like trading or scaming. Have fun creating dozens of spreadsheets, watching the market and trying to foretell future needs.
If thats what you want do this.

I did what I did and I had fun with it. At some point it was even fun to stand up in the middle of the night and log in ...

ISK is THE endgame. You have isk, you pay for your accounts; make pvp ships; do everything and anything you want because you can afford the loss.

hum lol, you will need an even bigger updrade to start doing incursions. We are talking about a few months of skill training here. So no it doesn't prove your point at all.

Now most miners in eve do it because they like to mine. Yes yes it's true i swear. And thank god to that. You won't have ships to buy without those miners out there.

Now if being a combat pilot is what you want in the first place, yes clearly you should stop mining and start doing missions. On that, you have a point.

I left for service when i made this guy; got back to the states recently and I'm continuing my path into mining.
But after researching alot of the endgame methods for gaining isk

I'm left with a pit in my stomach about these incursions.
Players are reporting anywhere from 500-1bil/day in isk gain by fleeting up for these
While when I run back to station after 15 times with my retriever, I'm getting a couple mil. (This is hours of time).

My research reports that hulks don't even make 1/8th of incursion piltos.

I'm just hoping someone from CCP can at the very least clarify this so I can stop mining and just train for a battleship like everyone else since I could just refine loot. I just lost my motivation to mine with all this information. I really really want to be a miner and make my own stuff and sell it and everything but..

I cannot see a reason to pursue it if these combat pilots can both Get the minerals AND make 10times the isk then I do.

I cannot see a reason to pursue it if these combat pilots can both Get the minerals AND make 10times the isk then I do.

Mining is a low attention, low stress, low player skill activity that can be done solo with a cheap ship from an incredibly abundant resource. If you want to "play EVE" while studying for your exams, then mining is a good way to do it.

Incursions require you to pay attention, bring the right ship, work with others, know what you're doing and have limited availability.

So I'm here posting in several threads about the pisspoor management of the Economy and Mining in general...

Oddly enough, so does mining if you want to make even 1/10th the profit of incursion fleets. What's your point?
You say it's low attention which IS true if you're not worried about losing your meta4'd or t2'd out mining ship to a highsec ganker or watch local in null/lowsec.

Low stress? Are you kidding? Even the kids in a retriever deal with stress because if they "dont pay attention" they normall lose that retriever to a bunch of frigate rats.

Low player skill? what are you even trying to get at here? Trained skillbooks ? Because as a solo miner the only viable miner would be an orca with a crazy fit to have miners and t2 mining drones which is a LONG and rather HIGH skill level. If you're trying to tell me that right click-lockon-moveto is lowskill then you are also referring to PvE combat pilots who do the SAME thing..

They target, they click their modules. Same damn thing. Heck drone boats don't even need to do that. They send out drones and AFK with their repair and hardeners. What skill are you talking about?

The ones who are shooting things for minerals are not the same as the ones who are making hundreds of millions of ISK an hour on Incursions. The ones you're thinking of are the 60M ISK/hr mission runners who have pimped out ships worth tens of billions of ISK.

If your goal is to wander low sec in a gang engaging in PvP, train for that play style. Running Incursions is a natural extension of that play style. Running missions is a natural extension of that play style. Mining and manufacturing are not natural extensions of the low sec roaming gang play style.

You shouldn't be mining with the intention of making ISK. If your intent is to make ISK, pick the activity that you can do which makes the most ISK. Don't complain that the activity you're doing is not making the most ISK. You obviously picked that activity for other reasons.

Complaining that mining doesn't make enough ISK compared to the cowboys flying sexy ships is equivalent to complaining that a job as a production line employee in China doesn't pay as much as CEO of Apple. The labour is cheap because there are so many people willing to undercut each other to do that job.

If you're really concerned about the time it takes to make the ISK you want, why not buy PLEX to convert to ISK? The exchange rate is quite favourable at this point in time.

Mining is in the state that it's in largely because of changes to the game loudly demanded by miners. When you have a low-skill, low risk, low investment, low attention activity that harvests an extremely abundant resource to sell in a competitive economy, then how much money do you think you're going to make at it?

If you want to make mining lucrative, then you need to ask CCP to make it difficult, dangerous and for there to be far less asteroids available.

Okay... a few things...

1. You claim that you were attracted to this game because it was "like reality" and then balk when they guys with the guns make more money than an industrialist.
You are aware that most mercenaries make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year while your average miner barely clears between 30 to 60 thousand (at least here in the US).

2. You claim that you were attracted to this game because of the Economy, which is an almost pure "laissez faire" system.... yet you seem to be complaining about how there is very little money to be made in the profession of mining.
Here's the thing... the amount of ISK you make is almost entirely dependent on supply and demand. So far, the trend is that there has been steadily increasing supply (because there are more and more people becoming miners who are mining more and more to make more ISK) with almost stagnant demand (not enough people are blowing up each others' ships).
On the other hand... Incusions only pop up in select locations, their value is based on the LP you gain from them (the LP allows you to purchase items that are not in wide circulation), and the LP is only rewarded to those that do the most damage. This means there is very, very little supply to sate demand... which means that the stuff you buy with Incursion LP is worth more and commands a higher price.

3. You want CCP to do "something" to make mining more profitable? Like what?
Creating a new ship that mines more than a Hulk will just make the problem worse (because it will increase supply, making minerals worth less).
Taking asteroid belts away from many places (see: introducing "scarcity") is always an interesting option... but miners generally balk at this as it makes the profession more "difficult."
CCP could go into the in-game market and buy off a ton of minerals to ease up the supply side of things... but this would be only a temporary fix at best. It would also go against CCP's "hands-off" policy regarding the in-game market.

3) I'd rather not mine MORE because the hulk can't fit much in it's cargo. I'd rather a ship that mined less but could HOLD more. Like how orca's are but made for mining instead of hauling. Because as things are right now; an Orca is what I have to aim for to keep profit which mind you takes 2-3 months atleast to train for and mine effectively with. Just like all these people for their shiny battleships. No reason to touch the market. Give us ores that are in null/lowsec into highsec is another option!

We already have the risk of being ganked in highsec, why not just give us the nullsec ores since it'd be stupid to go to nullsec without being in a GIANT alliance with a safe system for mining in.

You're going nowhere with this 'miners afk' thing. Not everyone has $45 to spend to get 2 hulks and an orca on alt accounts. There are more miners in 1 account then these multi boxers.

Why are you complaining about having to have a small fleet to mine anyway? You need 45 dollars to have 2 hulks an an orca in solo? Care to calculate the price of 3 T3 ships, 2 Faction BS, and 2 logistic cruisers to run an incursion? That's about 105 Dollars to multibox that and billions of isks to invest in.

Or.... you make some friends to fly those other ships and voila, you save yourself the need to pay alt account. This is an MMo afterall.

I also can't keep a hulk for more then a week because every week some combat kiddie giggling his arse off gets his buddies and suicide ganks it.

Where are you mining?

The belts where I usually hang out are quite safe: I'd sit there with an unattended fleet of two hulks and an orca from the time I wake up to the time I go to bed, returning to the computer occasionally to move ore to the Orca or haul stuff back to station. Not much of an income, but far better than I could make if I was trying to run missions while gardening and housekeeping.

Refer to post above where I say that a miner can't necessarily jump into local with "Miner LF orca Fleet" and expect to get one. Also it's not completely common to have a corp with an orca to spare 24/7.

Sooo saying multiboxing all those for an incursion? I would like someone to post a screenshot of them sitting in front of their computer with all of that going on because I doubt highly anyone has.

Whereas a big portion of miners are forced to mutlibox a hauler due to such ridiculously low cargo space on a 200million isk hulk which quite a few people lose frequently to highsec ganks nowadays.

Oh because you think you can just /Lfg an incursion on local?

Let me get this straight out of the box for you. Because Incursions are now the best way to make isks (There is now denying that fact), you have 50 ships doing them at the same time. Problem is, if you are more than 20 or 10 (Depending on the level of the incursion) you 0 isks from the incursion.

The isks will go to the top DPS, and the rest will have nothing to bones to chew on. You really thing that in that scenario a FC will pick up a random guy in local channel? Don't be silly :3

And if be great chance, you get a fleet this way. The FC will scan your ship. If he see's something he dosn't like there, he will ask you to leave and if you refuse he will give instructions to logistic ships to let you die when you get primaried.

To wrap it up, yes you should train for incursions, this is what you should do. But While mining isn't as lucrative, it is lucrative enough and some do it because they enjoy it. It's not your cup of tea and i understand that.

But do remember one thing.

When you will get billions of isks from incursions and buy those nice modules, the amo, the ships... Alway remember that what you are buying is thanks to work of an industrial.

Sure they aren't as rich as you are. But hey, they made that ship of yours. I think that alone is enough to justify going the industrial path.

Here it's just not has profitable. And sure, you may respect us industrial types but the mass majority does not. We get suicide ganked; spit on; shat on; told our profession is a stupid choice because they can do the same with minerals from loot?

And yes, I would love to mine less then a hulk but with the cargo capacity of an orca. It's less trips back and forth to a station.

As for your reference to 'mining corp' .. why should I be forced to? Even then, I can't just jump in a system and go "Miner lf orca support, fleet invite please." and expect to get one.

also can't keep a hulk for more then a week because every week some combat kiddie giggling his arse off gets his buddies and suicide ganks it.

So tell me... How would YOU fix the market? I personally would remove remote reppers so those shiny toys die once in awhile and the demand for minerals is increased. OR just put nullsec ores into highsec so solo miners have a remote chance to even compete.

Your idea for the removal of remote reppers appeals to me on a level I cannot quite articulate. However the rational part of my brain says that it would not be a good idea simply because it would limit tactical options to simply "who brings more ships" (yes, "blobs" CAN be defeated. It just requires some... finesse).

As far as null-sec 'riods being brought into high-sec... remember: the high value of null-sec ores/minerals comes from the fact that they are only found in the most high-risk (supposedly) areas of the game. Ergo, their availability is low... making them scarce... meaning there is only so much supply available... with means they command a higher price.
If you bring such asteroids into high-sec people will begin mining THOSE rocks in large quantities too... which means that there will be more supply... which means that the price of those ores/minerals goes down... which means you will earn less... and you will have to mine more to get more ISK... and others will do the same... bringing prices down even more.

Because it encourages people to play alone and/or AFK and/or use bots? And none of those options are particularly conducive to a MULTI-player game.

So why not remove remote reppers. Eve warfare is already boned with blob warfare.. Only this way, it will increase the amount of ships that get destroyed. If they bring more ships, it's more demand for minerals.

So turn mining into some kind of minigame. If the issue is that AFK'rs and ROBOTs benefit as well; make something in mining with a random variable so that a bot cannot keep up and an AFKr has to be active.

I believe there are quite a few topics about minigame ideas as well.

Are you denying that mining needs a huge makeover and made more profitable because they put the same amount of time and more work then combat pilots(if they invest into marketting)?

So why not remove remote reppers. Eve warfare is already boned with blob warfare.. Only this way, it will increase the amount of ships that get destroyed. If they bring more ships, it's more demand for minerals.

That incursion guys that brag about how much they make take that one hour they used to shoot stuff and say they made a billion. I bet they don't include the time they needed to find a fleet, travel to the incursion system or sell their rewards.
If you don't belong to some elitist incursion runner club you'll likely spend days for getting invited to some incursion fleet that gets you some rewards at all. Also if the fleet isn't competent enough you might lose your equipment pretty fast.
.

if a suicide gank wraps in, he will be too far away to even lock you

Another problem:
It -is- dangerous because combat kiddies make it so. Have you not seen "Hulkageddon" and "Ice mining embargo by Goonswarm" and every year, according to the history of EVE, is a new threat to miners.

You wanted it to be dangerous? It's already there. We do just as much right-click targetting as combat pilots. Our profession, if anything, is among the MOST dangerous of professions.

The problem is that my way of having fun is inferior in all aspects despite being equal in training time, right-click targetting amount; and even then we happen to do MORE WORK then these "ceo" who sit on their big pile of dam near free money by going into manufactoring and trading.

Why is my 'fun' that is also 'work that i enjoy' so far inferior to lazy people with shiny toys THAT I MADE.

Now ... for those who haven't figured it out - the OP is clearly a troll.

After my last post in this thread, I was beginning to suspect the same thing. But then I saw this little gem over the F&I section.

I think we are dealing with a bona fide ignoramus with "entitlement issues" here.

edit: my link-fu fails.

Of course ... this is just the type of person a troll is pretending to be ...

The reasons for mining lacking profitability have been outlined here. If mining was more risky you'd make more money (like 0.0 miners do)

So why not remove remote reppers. Eve warfare is already boned with blob warfare.. Only this way, it will increase the amount of ships that get destroyed. If they bring more ships, it's more demand for minerals.