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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
435
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 22:56:00 -
[61] - Quote
I want a pony. A pink one. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
27
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 23:21:00 -
[62] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Rowells wrote:
You should also know that the 5-second time only applies when A) you have probes pre-positioned and B) you know the general area of the ship. You will never be able to find a random safe with just one go.
Keep the probes close in on your fleet, keep them cycling, and you're literally immune to stealth bombers. Why do you want to buff blobs? Having someone in a probe ship keeping gaurd is akin to having a pvp escort. It is a fairy tale that never really happens |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
27
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 23:26:00 -
[63] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I want a pony. A pink one.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_XuJuckiofe8/Sgm_o05rQAI/AAAAAAAAAcc/13M_o8TLW6k/s1600-h/pink_pony.jpg
Will this suffice? |

Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1505
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 23:27:00 -
[64] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Rowells wrote:
You should also know that the 5-second time only applies when A) you have probes pre-positioned and B) you know the general area of the ship. You will never be able to find a random safe with just one go.
Keep the probes close in on your fleet, keep them cycling, and you're literally immune to stealth bombers. Why do you want to buff blobs? Having someone in a probe ship keeping gaurd is akin to having a pvp escort. It is a fairy tale that never really happens
You bring in the option to find every bomber that tried to hit you and you can 100% guarantee that it will happen when any fleet is in one place for any length of time. bringing a few probers along will be pretty much mandatory. |

Hileksel Tarmik
Mordu's Military Industrial Command Circle-Of-Two
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 23:52:00 -
[65] - Quote
Onomerous wrote: I need proof please!! An AFK cloaker is killing ships in your system? That is one frigging awesome EVE player if he can kill stuff while AFK!! ;)
Just think how bad it would be if there was no local??!! Gasp, the horror!!! EVE should have a type of space that has no local and see how it goes?? ;)
As long as it is one ship + null sex style local, I see no problem. If you are worried they may bring tons of friends in with a cyno then that is a different issue with a definite solution.
As I have been trolled many times in my forum experience, I am hesitant to reply to this, as I can not be sure if this is trolling or not, but here goes:
When there is a cloaker in system, people can never be sure when that person is online, and I have seen pilots let their guard down after a couple hours, warp to a gate or Asteroid field, and get popped.
Now, as I have never run stealth, I don't have an issue with local. However, it seems that local is a major issue for many people running stealth. As many people as those that have a problem with AFK cloakers. So there is two issues here.
Prevent AFK cloaking without ruining the cloaking mechanic and prevent local from showing cloaked ships. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
27
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 00:00:00 -
[66] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:You bring in the option to find every bomber that tried to hit you and you can 100% guarantee that it will happen when any fleet is in one place for any length of time. bringing a few probers along will be pretty much mandatory.
Well, that's sort of the idea. If your in a system with 50+ hostile a hunting your 10 man gang there should have to be some effort into staying hidden properly. Periodically bounce safes and celestials. We already use this tactic even for non-cloaky ships trying to run. And I know that often bomber fleets will scatter themselves across the system until they actually have a target and are ready to drop. By that time even having the best probers in EVE won't do much to stop them. At that point probing won't do anything and it comes down to a fleets ability to react and counter-attack/flee. And when it comes to a blopdrop none if this really comes into play. |

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
5064
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 00:01:00 -
[67] - Quote
Hileksel Tarmik wrote: When there is a cloaker in system, people can never be sure when that person is online, and I have seen pilots let their guard down after a couple hours, warp to a gate or Asteroid field, and get popped.
Now, as I have never run stealth, I don't have an issue with local. However, it seems that local is a major issue for many people running stealth. As many people as those that have a problem with AFK cloakers. So there is two issues here.
Prevent AFK cloaking without ruining the cloaking mechanic and prevent local from showing cloaked ships.
Should people who are docked remain in local? You never know when people who are docked are AFK either. Can you prevent docking without ruining the docking mechanic for docked ships?
The fact is, AFK cloaking, AFK POS sitting and AFK docked in station are the same thing. If you do anything with one, you need to do the same to the others.
You admit that you have never run stealth. Id put some good ISK down on most people who create these threads haven't either. Why don't you go play in enemy territory in a bomber for 2 weeks, then come back and tell me how horribly broken cloaking is. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |

RoAnnon
Strategic Acquisitions Group Tactical Research Lab
120
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 00:29:00 -
[68] - Quote
Hileksel Tarmik wrote:When there is a cloaker in system, people can never be sure when that person is online, and I have seen pilots let their guard down after a couple hours, warp to a gate or Asteroid field, and get popped.
I think I can pretty much guarantee that any pilots you saw get popped, be it at a gate, or in an asteroid belt, the ship that popped them was NOT cloaked, nor was the pilot AFK.
So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter. |

Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
215
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 07:09:00 -
[69] - Quote
Rowells wrote: Well, that's sort of the idea. If your in a system with 50+ hostile a hunting your 10 man gang there should have to be some effort into staying hidden properly. Periodically bounce safes and celestials. We already use this tactic even for non-cloaky ships trying to run. And I know that often bomber fleets will scatter themselves across the system until they actually have a target and are ready to drop. By that time even having the best probers in EVE won't do much to stop them. At that point probing won't do anything and it comes down to a fleets ability to react and counter-attack/flee. And when it comes to a blopdrop none if this really comes into play.
So does that mean if the 50 man gang tries to hide from the 10 man gang there should be no effort involved because they're more people? 
But, if You don't accept my (clearly) visionary (and brilliant) idea of a docking expellant module maybe You can accept the Idea that docking up on a station, any station actually, should take about 30 seconds before your ship is actually removed from space, and in conjunction with that I want a module that works like a warp scrambler, only it prevents targeted players from docking up. 
That would put an end to all boring station games AND it would put non cloaked players on equal footing of cloaked players that can (according to your idea) be scanned down. 
Praise me for I am brilliant, my ideas enable everyone to force everyone else to play how everyone else wants it!  There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |

Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1508
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 08:15:00 -
[70] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Danika Princip wrote:You bring in the option to find every bomber that tried to hit you and you can 100% guarantee that it will happen when any fleet is in one place for any length of time. bringing a few probers along will be pretty much mandatory. Well, that's sort of the idea. If your in a system with 50+ hostile a hunting your 10 man gang there should have to be some effort into staying hidden properly. Periodically bounce safes and celestials. We already use this tactic even for non-cloaky ships trying to run. And I know that often bomber fleets will scatter themselves across the system until they actually have a target and are ready to drop. By that time even having the best probers in EVE won't do much to stop them. At that point probing won't do anything and it comes down to a fleets ability to react and counter-attack/flee. And when it comes to a blopdrop none if this really comes into play.
So the idea is to make it impossible to bomb large fleets? If I have 250 guys in my fleet, and there are 40 hostile bombers setting up for a run, then it will be incredibly easy to find them and warp the prober and his squad on top of them to kill them before they can hit me. Explain why that is a good idea?
Right now bombers are a great way to take down a fleet with much lower numbers. Explain why you want this removed. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
27
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 11:18:00 -
[71] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:
So the idea is to make it impossible to bomb large fleets? If I have 250 guys in my fleet, and there are 40 hostile bombers setting up for a run, then it will be incredibly easy to find them and warp the prober and his squad on top of them to kill them before they can hit me. Explain why that is a good idea?
Right now bombers are a great way to take down a fleet with much lower numbers. Explain why you want this removed.
If the bombers are gathering on the target then they are too close to warp. And when they are waiting for a target (like I said before) they are scattered at positions of each pilots own discretion (not all eggs in one basket. There's always that one lemming who might accidentally decloak all his buddies) so having scattered forces reduces the impact if any one pilot is caught. This isn't a new tactic either, people already use this. If they are competent pilots they are aligned toward a celestial near target and ready to go. That's how guerrilla tactics work. That's what covert ops are. Even a non-cloaked ships evade capture so long as they are constantly moving (the exception being larger, less agile ships). It's not that difficult nor too complicated.
EDIT: Snipped for size |

Evanga
Way So Mad Space Immigration
60
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 11:59:00 -
[72] - Quote
im going to cut my wrists now seeing another afk cloaky crying little ***** thread.
OK
here we go.
1. How do you know cloakers are afk? 2. How can someone who is cloaked kill you? 3. Do you have no other system to bear in? 4. Go to high sec 5. Give me your stuff
|

Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
230
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 12:31:00 -
[73] - Quote
Several of the post above CLEARLY state why changing something in EVE is never clear cut. You think you are getting rid of the 'problem' (if it even exists in the first place) but break others areas and create new issues. That is why I often ask people to COMPLETELY think their idea ALL the way through. It is pretty easy to see when they don't.
Cloaking is not an issue. AFK cloaking is not an issue. There is another potential problem there but I'm still waiting for someone to state it. |

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15214
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 12:41:00 -
[74] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:There is another potential problem there but I'm still waiting for someone to state it. We can't buy socks in the NEX store.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
29
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 12:46:00 -
[75] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:Cloaking is not an issue. AFK cloaking is not an issue. There is another potential problem there but I'm still waiting for someone to state it.
CCP gave me a donut holder, but no donuts |

Soylent Jade
New Order Logistics CODE.
28
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 12:48:00 -
[76] - Quote
Christ...the next person that makes a AFK cloaky whine thread gets locator agents run on them and gets their system camped by my alt's bomber. Making hisec better...one Catalyst at a time
minerbumping.com |

Evanga
Way So Mad Space Immigration
61
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 12:54:00 -
[77] - Quote
Soylent Jade wrote:Christ...the next person that makes a AFK cloaky whine thread gets locator agents run on them and gets their system camped by my alt's bomber.
I'm about to post on my spy alt "Lennelluck" :D |

Liafcipe9000
Smeghead Empire
8500
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 13:04:00 -
[78] - Quote
go in the other room with the other over nine thousand nerf-cloakers-threads.
and stay there. You may gain the knowledge, but you will lose your belief, with all its mystery and comfort. If there was proof, absolute and certain, there is an afterlife, why not quit this life, and be done with it? Ponder about these things all your life, and you're a philosopher. Compress these ponderings into a couple of pages, and you'll go mad. |

Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
438
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 14:01:00 -
[79] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Rowells wrote:
You should also know that the 5-second time only applies when A) you have probes pre-positioned and B) you know the general area of the ship. You will never be able to find a random safe with just one go.
Keep the probes close in on your fleet, keep them cycling, and you're literally immune to stealth bombers. Why do you want to buff blobs? Having someone in a probe ship keeping gaurd is akin to having a pvp escort. It is a fairy tale that never really happens
Or a person with an alt, which happens all the freaking time.
Or a booster ship with a probe launcher...that never ever happens...oh wait... |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
31
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 20:30:00 -
[80] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Rowells wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Rowells wrote:
You should also know that the 5-second time only applies when A) you have probes pre-positioned and B) you know the general area of the ship. You will never be able to find a random safe with just one go.
Keep the probes close in on your fleet, keep them cycling, and you're literally immune to stealth bombers. Why do you want to buff blobs? Having someone in a probe ship keeping gaurd is akin to having a pvp escort. It is a fairy tale that never really happens Or a person with an alt, which happens all the freaking time. Or a booster ship with a probe launcher...that never ever happens...oh wait...
You have a point with the booster alt. however I still fail to see how this makes you immune to bombers. Just because I know there's a murder in my house doesn't mean he's all of the sudden unable to kill me. |

Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 22:19:00 -
[81] - Quote
Rowells wrote: You have a point with the booster alt. however I still fail to see how this makes you immune to bombers. Just because I know there's a murder in my house doesn't mean he's all of the sudden unable to kill me.
No, but if you know he is upstairs and you are downstairs you have a distinct advantage if you don't know where he is. It may not make you immune, but if the probing allows people to be more judicious in deploying say, defensive bubbles.... |

Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1516
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 23:37:00 -
[82] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Danika Princip wrote:
So the idea is to make it impossible to bomb large fleets? If I have 250 guys in my fleet, and there are 40 hostile bombers setting up for a run, then it will be incredibly easy to find them and warp the prober and his squad on top of them to kill them before they can hit me. Explain why that is a good idea?
Right now bombers are a great way to take down a fleet with much lower numbers. Explain why you want this removed.
If the bombers are gathering on the target then they are too close to warp. And when they are waiting for a target (like I said before) they are scattered at positions of each pilots own discretion (not all eggs in one basket. There's always that one lemming who might accidentally decloak all his buddies) so having scattered forces reduces the impact if any one pilot is caught. This isn't a new tactic either, people already use this. If they are competent pilots they are aligned toward a celestial near target and ready to go. That's how guerrilla tactics work. That's what covert ops are. Even a non-cloaked ships evade capture so long as they are constantly moving (the exception being larger, less agile ships). It's not that difficult nor too complicated. EDIT: Snipped for size
Cloaked bombers don't decloak one another.
Bombers gathering on perches in positions to hit the fleet will now easily be found, warped to and killed before they can bomb.
Scatter them too much and you can't do the four runs from four directions to skullfuck a fleet thing.
If I know bombers are on grid or very close to my fleet, I can have my dictors get defensive bubbles up, my anti-support get ready, my fleet turn off MWDs, my logis lock things up, and if they're close enough, think about overheating hardeners just to be sure. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
31
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 00:21:00 -
[83] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:
Cloaked bombers don't decloak one another.
Bombers gathering on perches in positions to hit the fleet will now easily be found, warped to and killed before they can bomb.
Scatter them too much and you can't do the four runs from four directions to skullfuck a fleet thing.
If I know bombers are on grid or very close to my fleet, I can have my dictors get defensive bubbles up, my anti-support get ready, my fleet turn off MWDs, my logis lock things up, and if they're close enough, think about overheating hardeners just to be sure.
i never said cloaked ships declaok each other, but remember it takes on person who forgets to cloak up before gathering with his mates and he screws everyone else. It happens.
You won't need to see the enemy to know that they are in covert ops ships. knowing that bombers are in system should not change how prepared your fleet is. if you brought anti-bomber support, then they are most likely always set up for that task. Bubbling your own fleet simply because bombers are close is not a wise choice in most situations, many FC's just have the fleet aligned out if they know they're being hunted. In situations where the only threat is a bomber gang, then you are definitely more prepared for it as you said, anti-support, turn off MWDs, etc. however if your fleet also has other concerns, the you have to decide between being on constant anti bomber status, or working to complete the fleets objective. and this is all assuming that every gang bombers come up against have a dedicated prober. I know that most large fleets do since it becomes an invaluable tool, but at that point the probers are working to find the enemies forces, not a smaller gang of bombers. it's simple strategy: i waste time and effort hunting bombers down while the enemy fleet is left to do as it pleases, or i can focus on the main objective of eliminating the larger threat and completing my objective. So in situations where fleets will have anti-bomber support, their attention is not fully focused on your gang. In situations where the enemy is actively seeking you out it will be more difficult. At that point it becomes a real clash of tactics, will, and fleet discipline.
Unless the FC is willing to dedicate a decent portion of his force to catch you napping somewhere, which is risky business in terms of fleet warfare (not to mention extremely difficult management-wise), then so long as you keep a good eye on them you should have enough warning, even if its only a few seconds, to gtfo. Again, emphasizing the guerrilla tactics here.
IMO if you are in a frigate (forget cloakys for a second) and an enemy fleet can warp on you and catch you, then that sucks. you are flying the most agile ships in the game and you cant evade a force much larger than yours then it's not poor game mechanics, it's lack of skill. even if another frigate catches you, as the smaller force your strategy is to run until you have an advantage, so sitting still hoping your safe is the best safe is bad tactics.
When it comes to a bombing run, it does not matter how many logis have locked each other up. if the damage is enough the bombs will kill their targets. And burning out your modules simply because you THINK your about to get bombed is a little over-paranoid and will cost you when another threat arises.
So yes, some of your tactics are possible, but they have major drawbacks that the FC and pilots have to consider or else it could end up with the pod express home that night. |

Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 00:50:00 -
[84] - Quote
Rowells wrote: it's simple strategy: i waste time and effort hunting bombers down while the enemy fleet is left to do as it pleases(...). So basically you let enemy fleet movements dictate your own fleet movements. Someone has not been reading his Art of War book. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
31
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 00:56:00 -
[85] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote:Rowells wrote: it's simple strategy: i waste time and effort hunting bombers down while the enemy fleet is left to do as it pleases, or i can focus on the main objective of eliminating the larger threat and completing my objective. So basically you let enemy fleet movements dictate your own fleet movements. Someone has not been reading his Art of War book. Ah yes, I skipped the chapter on prioritizing threats during interstellar warfare in virtual environments. Please forgive my ignorance on this matter. |

Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 07:21:00 -
[86] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Ronny Hugo wrote:Rowells wrote: it's simple strategy: i waste time and effort hunting bombers down while the enemy fleet is left to do as it pleases, or i can focus on the main objective of eliminating the larger threat and completing my objective. So basically you let enemy fleet movements dictate your own fleet movements. Someone has not been reading his Art of War book. Ah yes, I skipped the chapter on prioritizing threats during interstellar warfare in virtual environments. Please forgive my ignorance on this matter.
Interstellar...terrestrial...doesn't really matter. The points are roughly the same.
|

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
31
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 20:12:00 -
[87] - Quote
Yes, but he's still applying them wrong with the example I gave. |

Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
235
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 20:23:00 -
[88] - Quote
Awesome!! Up to page 5 on how to fix something that isn't broken. I bet we can get to 10 pages if we all try hard enough!! GOOOOOOOOO |

Hileksel Tarmik
Mordu's Military Industrial Command Circle-Of-Two
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 23:32:00 -
[89] - Quote
Enough arguing on whether AFK Cloaking and Local Chat are issues or not. They are both issues, and are not even totally separate from one another. There are a lot of people who want one or both of these issues solved, so instead of bantering back and forth, help think of a solution that:
1. Makes AFK cloaking useless. 2. Fixes the free intel issue presented by Local chat. 3. Gives null-sec Miners and PVErs a way to combat cloaking in return for risk, effort, time, and ISK. (The current buzzwords are Combat Drivers) 4. Keep cloaking as a useful game mechanic.
And optionally, but possibly most important for pushing such a thing through, is make CCP some money. They want more people making accounts. We need something that will make people say, "I want to do that." |

Icarus Able
Traverse Holdings
46
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 01:56:00 -
[90] - Quote
I havent read the bulk of this post but the original post is probably the best idea for taking away afk cloaking with the exception that the cloaked ship gets decloaked when scanned to 100% so if the player is actually there he can recloak very easily. That said its still a sucky idea. What if someone is in enemy territory has a logoff time but needs a dump? Cant dock in stations cant logoff.. :P |
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