Cloaking is fine. Its not OP at all, nor is it next to impossible to kill a cloaky.

Could you explain? I have read topics how to decloak ships. But in thos every topics they said its very hard to succesfully do this and you generally only have a chance to do this when a ship is entering a system.

Once you miss that chance and the ship is cloaked, it then becomes nearly impossible to catch one because 'something' needs to be within 2500 meters of the cloaked ship in order to decloak it. And technically, a cloaked intel ship could just be 650 KM off-grid and AFK all day long with incredible little chance of ever getting decloaked am I wrong?



If there is a module to decloak a ship, for example scanning it down could take up to 5 minutes to complete (just entering random number for sake of argument) that should already be enough for people to try and drive out a intel ship from their system.
Currently, they can't do much about it, which is stupid...


Maybe the idea of a ship-module is wrong then, maybe it should be a additional option on a POS? Then this shouldnt affect low-sec / highsec but only nullsec where the stations are owned by players, not NPC Corps.

Again, I am sorry if my idea's should stupid, I am also completely fine with not changing the current mechanics. I just personally find it weird how it currently works.

Stop trying to make nullsec safe carebear.
Go to highsec if it bothers you.

Actually, I can't really find a solid counter response to:

"The reason these ideas are bad is because they allow you to find and decloak cloaked ships, which technically you shouldn't even know are there. You only know because the local chat tells you"


Haha, your absolutely right, it makes sense when you say it though. I guess its fine then to carebear in a enemy system 24/7 cloaked and be 99.99% safe. It still doesn't sit well with me, but yeah, the only reason currently you know they are there is because of chat, which is equally bad.


hmmmmmmmmmmmm -__- sadface

Your best counter to an afk cloaky is to change systems (harder if you are a renter with limited systems to pick from)

If the cloaky follows (or another one shows up), they're not afk and might be hunting you.

Actually, I can't really find a solid counter response to:

"The reason these ideas are bad is because they allow you to find and decloak cloaked ships, which technically you shouldn't even know are there. You only know because the local chat tells you"


Haha, your absolutely right, it makes sense when you say it though. I guess its fine then to carebear in a enemy system 24/7 cloaked and be 99.99% safe. It still doesn't sit well with me, but yeah, the only reason currently you know they are there is because of chat, which is equally bad.


hmmmmmmmmmmmm -__- sadface

Hello

Hi there.

Could you care to explain why cloak is a problem?
Your first explanation or at least your point is not quite clear, specially based on streams so you said.

To solve whatever problem, if there's one in the first place, you need to identify said mechanic problem first then figure if there are counters.
If there is no counter then yes it's OP, if there are counters to it then it's not a problem except for lazy players not willing to understand this is not a scripted game but a player made content one, thus those lazy players should start applying tactics or being creative/imaginative instead of moaning because something is not handed to them.

At this day and after hundreds of pages dozens of threads about this over the years no one yet has identified a single true problem that can't be solved with in game tools, thus cloak is not a problem.

I see you took the time to search the forum and gather information before posting. But I digress.

What exactly is wrong with people idling or going AFK, whilst cloaked?

This ability to just sit there and a alliance who owns that space is not able to anything against it is the only thing that I find a bit weird.

It seems that according to feedback posted below, the ability to decloak using ship-modules would be the same as forcing a player to undock. I don't really understand this,

And I am not going to suggest to remove local etc haha, so I guess its fine the way it is now. But, I do still believe that "not able to flush out a cloaky player in your system" is still a bit weird that you can't really do that. It feels to me that you should be able too :)

Here, try this out for size:

Local fixing, so it is still social and yet doesn't offer intel beyond logical limits:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2369739#post2369739


How to hunt cloaked vessels, using as much as possible to balance them fairly:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2668453#post2668453
(Yes, the title specifies the condition that local not hand out their presence for free, a condition which is satisfied by the first thread above)

Insert shameless self-promotion here -------->

:-)

:-)

[quote=Nikk Narrel]
I deny nothing, but I do point out that if a better solution is offered, I will use that instead.

I am simply an engineer with free time, who likes to solve these kinds of puzzles :)

In that case, let the link wars begin!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=234371

Ok, I am missing something here.

Are you operating under the belief that cloaking is not balanced, and this is how you correct it?

OR

Am I missing where this balancing aspect pays for the ability to hunt cloaked vessels?

Neither, really. It is me looking at cloaking and wondering why the heck they can't be hunted and proposing a way to do it. The idea evolved throughout the thread to figure out a balance to it. The thread died before it got there.

I do agree that it is weird that there is no mechanic by which players can actively hunt down cloaked spies.

The closest analogies to cloaked spies would be submarines and we all know it is possible to hunt them down. Not easy, but possible.

Not easy, but possible.

In threads like this, link to other, older threads on the topic. There are many suggested ideas on this topic, and if you can put your support behind them, and your ideas, they may become a reality.

Neither, really. It is me looking at cloaking and wondering why the heck they can't be hunted and proposing a way to do it. The idea evolved throughout the thread to figure out a balance to it. The thread died before it got there.

As a member of a null-sec industry corporation, I have seen first-hand what a Covert-Ops ship can do to a system while being AFK. Maybe I should start with some facts.

As a member of a null-sec industry corporation, I have seen first-hand what a Covert-Ops ship can do to a system while being AFK. Maybe I should start with some facts.

Hello.

As a member of a null-sec industry corporation, I have seen first-hand what a Covert-Ops ship can do to a system while being AFK. Maybe I should start with some facts.

Mining ships are mostly easy kills, with somewhat low defences, and not very good align times. Currently, one of the most used tactics to keep these ships alive is to warp to a safe point whenever Intel suggests there is danger.

When an AFK cloaker is in system, it is considered a bad idea to move out of a safe zone with any ship, as many cloakers have the ability to use cynosaural fields and smartbombs.

It is a commonly used tactic to sit in a system with a cloaked ship while AFK. This prevents mining, and to an extent, local travel, as many pilots know the possible capabilities of many cloaked ships. However, they usually don't even know what ship the cloaker is in.

I realise there is a good reason there is cloaking. It adds a very interesting aspect to the game. The problem many people have, is the fact that an enemy player, corp, or even an alliance, can send one ship into a system, have it sit cloaked for an entire day, and disrupt activity in that system without even pressing a button on the keyboard.

Question: "Hey, why not move to another system?"
Answer: "Because someone is AFK cloaked in that one too!"(And the next one... Oh wait, they have the same last names...)

On the alliance level, this is a huge reward, with little risk. Cripple enemy logistics, for the price of a covert ship. And most of the time, that ship comes home safe after a week.

The biggest problem is AFK cloakers. Some suggestions to fix this are:

Fuel for Cloaks: It would solve the problem. However, this adds extra cost to running a cloaked ship. Some other balance related issues have been raised as well.

Dead-Man Switch: Can be botted around easily

Anti Cloak Weapons/Scanners: This affects not only AFK cloakies, but active ones. This solution would need to be carefully analyzed and well thought out before implementation, as it could easily shift the balance too far.

In threads like this, link to other, older threads on the topic. There are many suggested ideas on this topic, and if you can put your support behind them, and your ideas, they may become a reality.

EDIT: I can see where people are coming from on the Local Chat issue. There are other threads focusing on in this issue. My personal favorite is an option to go into "Silent" mode. It would shut down chat, fleet, market, and any other NeoCom functions that would require outside communications, and in return, you can not be seen on Local. I know that this solution is not perfect, but to me, it makes sense. If you are not communicating, you should not be visible on a chat channel.

Hello,

The reason started after watching Mad Ani's stream. He is streaming the Fountain war (I am greatful to him for that). But, at the same time I started thinking about the whole cloaking mechanics because basically the alliance in that system is totally unable to do anything to try and flush him out of their system.

On a completely unrelated side note, I also want afk docking to be a bannable offense.

Whever I'm mining or running missions and those devious bastards are sitting their stations AFK, I feel that uneasy thingling between my shoulders, that feeling that You're being watched, HOUNDED! I know they're just waiting for an oportunity to kill me, take my shineys, disgrace my corpse PUBLICLY!

AFK docking is completely unbalanced and therefore ruins my gameplay, perfect safety for zero effort, nobody should have that!

I pondered what to do about that, for a very long time until I found the perfect solution.

I'll petition CCP and gather signatures on that topic until they give me what I am entitled to , until I finally get what I deserve!

I want to ban immediate docking up/POS'ing up in NS!! If a non-blue comes into system, you cannot go within 1 au of a dock or POS for 20 seconds. I need a way to combat them getting safe before I can blow them up. Seems to be balanced as there isn't much I can do to stop them from doing it as soon as I enter local.

Can you actually explain the problem other than referring to a stream and talking about whats supposedly not fair and all?

Why exactly does EvE needs a way to decloak ships at long ranges?

I think being able to probe down a cloaked ship is all that's necessary. It won't really affect anyone who's actually interacting or scouting the system or participating in any kind of blops activities.

Cloaking itself is fine and there is no need for a decloaking module. It seems a little odd that as soon as someone makes a safe and cloaks up, no amount of players, skills, effort, etc. can do anything about it. I cannot think of a single example in any situation where you can hide anywhere perfectly without the chance of being found. And the fact that all of your probes, dscan, and other sensors work perfectly fine while cloaked, makes it almost as bad as the local chat problem. But I don't think that needs to be changed either. If you are in a hostile system, making yourself safe shouldn't be as simple as fitting a cheap module. And while local may be broken, I don't think that eliminating it completely would solve this.

You should know that skilled probers only need about 5 seconds to scan someone down.

So if ppl can suddenly scan down cloaked ships, I want to be able to deploy mobile decoys without uncloaking.
And I want something to expell docked players from their stations, because it's clearly unbalanced since I can't do anything against docked players.

Pouring some new oil into the fire, eh?

You should know that skilled probers only need about 5 seconds to scan someone down.

So if ppl can suddenly scan down cloaked ships, I want to be able to deploy mobile decoys without uncloaking.

And I want something to expell docked players from their stations, because it's clearly unbalanced since I can't do anything against docked players.

But... maybe... with a new kind of probe called "cover probes", more expansive, and requiring astronometrics at 5 would be balanced....

And docking is different, I can dock in my own system, so it's fair.
But allowing to someone AFK to kill people and to destory, alone, whole regions is not balanced at all!

You should also know that the 5-second time only applies when A) you have probes pre-positioned and B) you know the general area of the ship. You will never be able to find a random safe with just one go.

And I'm assuming the automatic undock is in reference to the decloaking module that I suggested against. But I geuss you could just flip the station to your alliance and wait for him to make his move. Works pretty much the same way.

But... maybe... with a new kind of probe called "cover probes", more expansive, and requiring astronometrics at 5 would be balanced....

And docking is different, I can dock in my own system, so it's fair.
But allowing to someone AFK to kill people and to destory, alone, whole regions is not balanced at all!

A) Bless odyssey for You can now deploy probes in a predefined pattern!

B) Generaly speaking near one of the planets or other celestial bodies.You an set Your scan radius large enough to get all safe spots nearby and at the same time small enough to catch anything with the first scan.

So, in short: NO! BAD IDEA!

Where's the link to the collection of "anti cloaking" thread when you need it.

NoNo, it doesn't work the same way. The dockling expellant module (sounds like some chemical added to some laundry detergent) would just force undock someone from a station AND warp him away 100km in a straigt line, and It'd ofc have a cycle time of 1 minute. It'd be PERFECTLY BALANCED! Nobody should enjoy perfect safety for zero effort once logged in!

You're absolutely right. I am so tired of having to work for these kills nowadays. EVE has gotten so much harder lately, hasn't it?

But... maybe... with a new kind of probe called "cover probes", more expansive, and requiring astronometrics at 5 would be balanced....

And docking is different, I can dock in my own system, so it's fair.
But allowing to someone AFK to kill people and to destory, alone, whole regions is not balanced at all!

(note: I cannot detect if they are trolling, using sarcasm or if they are really that lacking in brain matter)

AFK killing and destroying? Damn that is one awesome EVE player. I would bet the best that ever played. They don't have to be at their keyboard to get kills? Wait a second.. are they using a PVP bot maybe? And they can kill in other regions beside the one they are in?? All by themselves? This AFK killing cloaker is surely winning EVE!!!

You should also know that the 5-second time only applies when A) you have probes pre-positioned and B) you know the general area of the ship. You will never be able to find a random safe with just one go.

Keep the probes close in on your fleet, keep them cycling, and you're literally immune to stealth bombers.

Why do you want to buff blobs?

I want a pony. A pink one.

Having someone in a probe ship keeping gaurd is akin to having a pvp escort. It is a fairy tale that never really happens

I need proof please!! An AFK cloaker is killing ships in your system? That is one frigging awesome EVE player if he can kill stuff while AFK!! ;)

Just think how bad it would be if there was no local??!! Gasp, the horror!!! EVE should have a type of space that has no local and see how it goes?? ;)

As long as it is one ship + null sex style local, I see no problem. If you are worried they may bring tons of friends in with a cyno then that is a different issue with a definite solution.

You bring in the option to find every bomber that tried to hit you and you can 100% guarantee that it will happen when any fleet is in one place for any length of time. bringing a few probers along will be pretty much mandatory.

When there is a cloaker in system, people can never be sure when that person is online, and I have seen pilots let their guard down after a couple hours, warp to a gate or Asteroid field, and get popped.

Now, as I have never run stealth, I don't have an issue with local. However, it seems that local is a major issue for many people running stealth. As many people as those that have a problem with AFK cloakers. So there is two issues here.

Prevent AFK cloaking without ruining the cloaking mechanic and prevent local from showing cloaked ships.

When there is a cloaker in system, people can never be sure when that person is online, and I have seen pilots let their guard down after a couple hours, warp to a gate or Asteroid field, and get popped.

Well, that's sort of the idea. If your in a system with 50+ hostile a hunting your 10 man gang there should have to be some effort into staying hidden properly. Periodically bounce safes and celestials. We already use this tactic even for non-cloaky ships trying to run. And I know that often bomber fleets will scatter themselves across the system until they actually have a target and are ready to drop. By that time even having the best probers in EVE won't do much to stop them. At that point probing won't do anything and it comes down to a fleets ability to react and counter-attack/flee. And when it comes to a blopdrop none if this really comes into play.

Well, that's sort of the idea. If your in a system with 50+ hostile a hunting your 10 man gang there should have to be some effort into staying hidden properly. Periodically bounce safes and celestials. We already use this tactic even for non-cloaky ships trying to run. And I know that often bomber fleets will scatter themselves across the system until they actually have a target and are ready to drop. By that time even having the best probers in EVE won't do much to stop them. At that point probing won't do anything and it comes down to a fleets ability to react and counter-attack/flee. And when it comes to a blopdrop none if this really comes into play.

So the idea is to make it impossible to bomb large fleets? If I have 250 guys in my fleet, and there are 40 hostile bombers setting up for a run, then it will be incredibly easy to find them and warp the prober and his squad on top of them to kill them before they can hit me. Explain why that is a good idea?

Right now bombers are a great way to take down a fleet with much lower numbers. Explain why you want this removed.

There is another potential problem there but I'm still waiting for someone to state it.

Cloaking is not an issue. AFK cloaking is not an issue. There is another potential problem there but I'm still waiting for someone to state it.

Christ...the next person that makes a AFK cloaky whine thread gets locator agents run on them and gets their system camped by my alt's bomber.

Having someone in a probe ship keeping gaurd is akin to having a pvp escort. It is a fairy tale that never really happens

Or a person with an alt, which happens all the freaking time.

Or a booster ship with a probe launcher...that never ever happens...oh wait...

You have a point with the booster alt. however I still fail to see how this makes you immune to bombers. Just because I know there's a murder in my house doesn't mean he's all of the sudden unable to kill me.

If the bombers are gathering on the target then they are too close to warp. And when they are waiting for a target (like I said before) they are scattered at positions of each pilots own discretion (not all eggs in one basket. There's always that one lemming who might accidentally decloak all his buddies) so having scattered forces reduces the impact if any one pilot is caught. This isn't a new tactic either, people already use this. If they are competent pilots they are aligned toward a celestial near target and ready to go. That's how guerrilla tactics work. That's what covert ops are. Even a non-cloaked ships evade capture so long as they are constantly moving (the exception being larger, less agile ships). It's not that difficult nor too complicated.

EDIT: Snipped for size

Cloaked bombers don't decloak one another.

Bombers gathering on perches in positions to hit the fleet will now easily be found, warped to and killed before they can bomb.

Scatter them too much and you can't do the four runs from four directions to skullfuck a fleet thing.

If I know bombers are on grid or very close to my fleet, I can have my dictors get defensive bubbles up, my anti-support get ready, my fleet turn off MWDs, my logis lock things up, and if they're close enough, think about overheating hardeners just to be sure.

it's simple strategy: i waste time and effort hunting bombers down while the enemy fleet is left to do as it pleases(...).

So basically you let enemy fleet movements dictate your own fleet movements. Someone has not been reading his Art of War book.

Ah yes, I skipped the chapter on prioritizing threats during interstellar warfare in virtual environments. Please forgive my ignorance on this matter.

Ah yes, I skipped the chapter on prioritizing threats during interstellar warfare in virtual environments. Please forgive my ignorance on this matter.