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SengH
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Posted - 2005.12.08 15:35:00 -
[1]
If you look at the build requirements all the gang mods are actually tech 2 mods with just a tech1 labling.
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.12.08 19:11:00 -
[2]
Edited by: SengH on 08/12/2005 19:11:14
 Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Barbicane
I don't find lowering the T2BCs prereqs to Squadron Command 4 to be the problem.
It actually makes sense that BC2 vs. T1 BC compares to HAC vs. T1 cruiser.
What I do find to be a problem is that Leadership specialization takes a blow with this change. All of a sudden, those people who bothered to train Squadron Command 5, thinking it would make them great leadership specialists, got shafted and lost 30 days of training (should have trained Battleship 5 instead  ) since there difference between Squad Command lvl 4 and 5 all of a sudden is very minimal.
This needs to be addressed by CCP before releasing RMR.
A 20% boost is small?!
last I checked it was only 10% boost and when your talking about the base gang mod effectiveness being 2-3% thats really small. Only when you start maxxing your skills does it give you an edge.
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.12.08 19:41:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: SengH
Edited by: SengH on 08/12/2005 19:11:14
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Barbicane
I don't find lowering the T2BCs prereqs to Squadron Command 4 to be the problem.
It actually makes sense that BC2 vs. T1 BC compares to HAC vs. T1 cruiser.
What I do find to be a problem is that Leadership specialization takes a blow with this change. All of a sudden, those people who bothered to train Squadron Command 5, thinking it would make them great leadership specialists, got shafted and lost 30 days of training (should have trained Battleship 5 instead ) since there difference between Squad Command lvl 4 and 5 all of a sudden is very minimal.
This needs to be addressed by CCP before releasing RMR.
A 20% boost is small?!
last I checked it was only 10% boost and when your talking about the base gang mod effectiveness being 2-3% thats really small. Only when you start maxxing your skills does it give you an edge.
You're right... I thought I recalled it being 20% on SISI for some build... anyways, you still get your command coprocs and a 10% boost (even if that translates to 2-3%, I know people that have taken large projectile spec to 5 for 2% damage)
Its less than 2-3 %. At an average specialist skill of lvl 4. 10% of 12% is 1.2%.
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.12.08 22:11:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Barbicane
Edited by: Barbicane on 08/12/2005 21:33:01
Originally by: SengH
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: SengH
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Barbicane
...What I do find to be a problem is that Leadership specialization takes a blow with this change. All of a sudden, those people who bothered to train Squadron Command 5, thinking it would make them great leadership specialists, got shafted and lost 30 days of training (should have trained Battleship 5 instead ) since there difference between Squad Command lvl 4 and 5 all of a sudden is very minimal....
A 20% boost is small?!
last I checked it was only 10% boost and when your talking about the base gang mod effectiveness being 2-3% thats really small. Only when you start maxxing your skills does it give you an edge.
...
Its less than 2-3 %. At an average specialist skill of lvl 4. 10% of 12% is 1.2%.
Yup, that's what I meant.
With the other skills maxed, it's a matter of 18.75% effect with Squad Command level 5 vs. 17.5% with level 4 on base 2% gang mod. That extra 1.25% is hardly worth the 25-30 day training time. I'm pretty sure there are a good number of other skills you could train in that time that will give more benefit to your gang.
Wing Command could improve the difference, but I bet it will take a looong time before it is introduced. CCP probably want to study the effects of the current leadership skills first.
They are impossible to study. Sure you can say you go a bit faster here a bit more shield there. But at the end of the day your final result is the success of the engagement and theres no exact same engagement you can reproduce to say.. here and here have gone differently.
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.12.09 08:36:00 -
[5]
The main problem is in the correct hands... these ships will turn an average fleet into a near invincible one. There is no major improvement in any one area, but playing the strengths of your fleet with the individual gang mods really turns them into omgwtfbbq ships. The problem is the stacking and the generaility with which it applies across the whole fleet. CCP is taking a wary approach here. 10% additional shield and armor hp might not seem like alot. But ie. you have 30 BSes in your gang. Thats an extra 30000 cumalative HP your fleet has more than the others. Sure its only an extra 1000(500 shield/500 armor) per ship, but it buys your guys precious extra seconds to get out.
Likewise the T2 BCs used by someone who knows what hes doing... will make a fleet thats aware of the bonuses nigh invulnerable. Esp with the stacking on top of the current bonuses + the mindlink implant. The T1 BC + Gang mods have already had more effect on the TQ battles today than Dreadnoughts ever had. Its very hard to analyze quantitatively, but I agree with CCPs assessment that you should need more SP to use it than a capital ship.
However for a command ship just an extra 3 gang mods + 3% per level of command ship seems a bit pathetic. I'd rather them drop all the gun bonuses and go full out leadership upgrades.
New bonuses:
Per level of BC: 10% reduction of cap usage of gang assist modules + (original BC bonus.
Per level of Command ship: +2/3% increase to effectiveness of all gang warfare modules & ability to use +1 gang module per level.
99% reduction to gang warfare CPU requirements and 75% reduction of command processor CPU requirements per level.
Ability to use all 8 hislots of the fleet command ship with gang mods as a full out command ship should not be gimped. For a 300mil ++ ship I'd expect to use it to the max. Ofc you could burst all 8 gang mods but you wouldnt have much cap left after hehe.
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.12.09 20:12:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Barbicane
Originally by: SengH
...Ability to use all 8 hislots of the fleet command ship with gang mods as a full out command ship should not be gimped. For a 300mil ++ ship I'd expect to use it to the max. Ofc you could burst all 8 gang mods but you wouldnt have much cap left after hehe.
After a good night's sleep I've come to realize that you could probably stick a few command processors on the Fleet command ship and get that nber-specialized 8x Gang assist mod ship we're asking for.
Wont work. Not enuff CPU. Each command proc is 100 CPU and each gang assist is 50 CPU. Unless have a BC that has at least 900 cpu... you cant even fit everything on there.
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.12.11 22:08:00 -
[7]
I wish CCP would just make up their mind and not make these ships into the "phoon/nightmare" of the leadership world. Their not really command ships and their not really HABCs either.... T2 ships are supposed to be SPECIALIST ships... atm the 2 T2 BCs are trying to be both a HABC and a Command ship but not doing enuff of both.
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.12.12 10:57:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Esotera
So from reading this post again I can see that we have had some great ideas on what the skill needs should be.
Shame that there is no one listening from the CCP side :(
because of how leadership mods have collateral effects of all areas at the same time. I'd be wary too.... if fooling around with this stuff.... its fiddling with the basic core values of ships by modifying them unstacked. I'd be wary too, its kinda like genetic engineering but less complex 
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