1) It is exactly that: player versus player. No more, no less.
2) Because other players can offer a level of opposition that scripting can never dream of.

So EVE is a difficult game to figure out, as I try to balance my personal understanding of what Player Vs Player is.

Although, I have my personal view of what PVP, I would very much like to hear what anyone who is brave enough to post in GD.... as would others who read these threads.

Post with your MAIN, otherwise you're missing the point.

1) What is PVP to you?
2) Why do you like it?

1) To me, PvP is difficult, complicated, boring and pointless. I don't enjoy it, I'm no good at it, and in 10 years of MMOs, I've not yet ever felt I'm missing out on much by avoiding it. The closest I come to 'participating' in PvP is when I successfully come back from losec after a ninja mining trip without encountering another player; I consider those times PvP victories.

2) I don't.

Any gameplay element, combat or otherwise in which the skills, experience and abilities of one player are pitted against another and one emerges the benefactor or victor.

Verunae, I agree with your above statement.

Do you feel that it is more rewarding to win in a PVP matchup if the odds are somewhat technically equal, and your skill was the deciding factor? Or are you perfectly comfortable being part of a gang that defeats a solo player that didn't have a chance?

Which is more rewarding to you? Or are they the same value?

I'm pretty new to PvP myself. I mostly enjoy skulking around in my SB looking for soft targets or black ops fleets.

To me, a kill is a kill. It means someone failed, and/or someone succeeded. Whether I succeeded in scouting him out and hunting him down with my gang, or whether I beat him straight up, it's still a kill.

Most people don't take the thought into account that there are a lot of factors besides "Oh they just had more people". No. They were better prepared than you, they batphoned faster/more efficiently than you did, they had a better fleet comp.

Or, you just didn't watch where you were going. A failure on your part is as good as a success on your adversary's part.

[Edit: Also, I reject the concept of equality as far it goes to "fair fights". No fights are fair and equal, except things like chess. And chess is boring as hell. Things being mixed up, different capabilities across the board, that's what make thing interesting.

Eve has sound?

PvP has taken a new turn in which I shoot torpedos at TEST Alliance Please Ignore (and various pets) structures.

I hear it "generates content" for them when they need to show up for the resulting timer.

That's a Fair answer.... although I do not agree with the weighted value/thrill of the kill as you do.
My nephew thinks as you do, and he's a good kid.

PvP to me is the classic FPS definition: Player (human) vs Player (human) duking it out on a battlefield.

one where you and your opponent chat afterwards about the battle. Is there a magic place for this?

So, if I understand you correctly, you find more gratification in say, a 1v1 frigate/cruiser/whatever fight than in a gang roam killing singles? Fair enough, certainly.

I find as much gratification getting on comms, rolling out with the bros and going to make somebody have a bad day, whoever is unlucky enough to get caught, lol. As far as PvP goes, I have always believed in "different strokes".

I get the kicks factor you are talking about, and EVE certainly has that part covered.

It's the game of minds I find most challenging though in a PVP experience, chess or spaceships.
If you don't want a challenge, then roam with a gang looking for solos to own. If you get lucky, you will find another gang and then you have a real challenge or at least close to it. I would argue the later is much more memorable to your game play and gets a rewind moment in local.

I've read many of your posts and you seem to find value in the match up?
Like any good superhero story, it's boring if one side is too OP..

Where in EVE can you find a good match up, where you feel it was a good fight and not a "gank", but one where you and your opponent chat afterwards about the battle. Is there a magic place for this?

Guys.. I think.. I really think this thread is a trap.. o,O

So EVE is a difficult game to figure out, as I try to balance my personal understanding of what Player Vs Player is.

Although, I have my personal view of what PVP, I would very much like to hear what anyone who is brave enough to post in GD.... as would others who read these threads.

Post with your MAIN, otherwise you're missing the point.

1) What is PVP to you?
2) Why do you like it?

Do you feel that it is more rewarding to win in a PVP matchup if the odds are somewhat technically equal, and your skill was the deciding factor? Or are you perfectly comfortable being part of a gang that defeats a solo player that didn't have a chance?

This is a fantastic and honest answer..

thank you!


Question though: You most likely have played a game of Monopoly with someone before on the kitchen table. That is PVP in a sense, why is online so different? Is it the bully mentality that comes across?

PvP all too often looks like 12-yr olds chest-pounding in a sandpit.

PVP gamers think ganging up on solo players is winning

Market trades are not really PvP imo because they are consentual. Both side agree to the outcome.

PvP has taken a new turn in which I shoot torpedos at TEST Alliance Please Ignore (and various pets) structures.

I hear it "generates content" for them when they need to show up for the resulting timer.

I bought up all the 'Item X' in region and now you have to pay 3x market to buy it. Did you consent to that? Sure you can buy it at the new price or go to another region, but either way, I have cost you ISK or time. Seeing as all you can lose in ship pew is ISK or time, I'd call it PVP.

anyone who says that any player activity that can be described as being against or opposed to another player is not pvp is objectively wrong

In the context of MMOs its not a correct statement. Since everyone is competing for resources one could then say ice mining is PvP which is obviously fallacious.

In the context of MMOs its not a correct statement. Since everyone is competing for resources one could then say ice mining is PvP which is obviously fallacious.

The generally accepted definition in the gamer community is combat.

If I drop a fleet of 50 macks on your ass and mine the ice out from under you, it's most certainly PvP.

I completely agree, and as a father of 5 kids, it's sad that PVP gamers think ganging up on solo players is winning, and they somehow did something amazing.

It's the publisher fault I feel for giving players so much freedom and not adding a more structured and entertaining PVP experience in game.... at least on some level.

I don't think it's actually possible in this game since it's so deeply convicted to open world only after ten years of the same thing, it's not changing.

anyone who says that any player activity that can be described as being against or opposed to another player is not pvp is objectively wrong

Besides the obvious shoot people answer, I consider the following to be a form of PVP.

Exploration in null owned or claimed by alliances who aren't blue.
Anything wormhole.
Hauling through null/low. (If you don't agree, try running camps in a T1 hauler; It's fun)
Ratting with reds nearby or in system.


Basically, anything where you know you are risking being shot at. If you're afk hauling through highsec, you're probably not PVPing, though you might run into someone who is anyway.


Ganking is PVP as far as I am concerned. It perfectly fits the PlayerVSPlayer model. It might not be *fair* PVP but that doesn't make it less than PVP.

Ganking is PVP as far as I am concerned. It perfectly fits the PlayerVSPlayer model.

Ganking is about the only PvP there is in MMOs, which is the sad state of PvP.

Easy kills. For lazy killers.

Ganking is about the only PvP there is in MMOs, which is the sad state of PvP.

Easy kills. For lazy killers.

Ganking is about the only PvP there is in MMOs, which is the sad state of PvP.

Easy kills. For lazy killers.

I imagine there are other games in space you could find that wouldn't offend your sensibilities.

Ganking is about the only PvP there is in MMOs, which is the sad state of PvP.

Easy kills. For lazy killers.

So EVE is a difficult game to figure out, as I try to balance my personal understanding of what Player Vs Player is.

Although, I have my personal view of what PVP, I would very much like to hear what anyone who is brave enough to post in GD.... as would others who read these threads.

Post with your MAIN, otherwise you're missing the point.

1) What is PVP to you?
2) Why do you like it?

But Open world and freedom is pretty much the fundamental basis for the whole game. I don't know why you would play if you disagreed with that aspect?

In the context of MMOs its not a correct statement. Since everyone is competing for resources one could then say ice mining is PvP which is obviously fallacious.

The generally accepted definition in the gamer community is combat.

Considering how PvP is so borked, yeah, I can see how PvPers can consider anything PvP.

I mean they gank. That's the sum of MMO PvP. Everything must be PvP then!

At least in a FPS game there's some objective to fight for. A cause.

Guy asleep at a gatecamp for 8hrs only objective is having a ship when he wakes up.

People are putting too much into PvP being "harder" and more "challenging". Even in WoW you can see the difference of an average raider vs an average PvPer...

Raider -- gemmed/enchanted/stats optimized and farms for better gear to get into HM raids.

PvPer -- No gems. No enchants. Never learned to optimize stats. He only wants to farm BGs. PvE is too hard.

Had an arena partner that was a great example that's even seen in EvE. 15 year-old kid. Naga mouse. Got every macro known programmed on it. Learned all of the tricks to look kewl among peers. But in arena, couldn't close...and he's DPS. Blamed everyone else, would even heal me (a healer) because he wasn't playing as a partner anyway -- but the basic arena strats, too hard to learn. He jumped into the BGs and that's all he knows and how he plays. To this day, does the same thing. All that talk and even macros, couldn't get past 1800 rating.

It's not PvP vs PvE. It's about applying yourself to be the best in things that you do. To have that self-respect to be an asset in a group, not just an ass.

other games offer a more limited variety of pvp activities. this does not change the meaning from 'player versus player'

(that's what pvp stands for just fyi)

this ~generally accepted definition~ [citation needed] is wrong

And EvE is no different.

Hiding under the skirt of "sandbox" doesn't excuse the definition: PvP is non NPC combat.

It's human PLAYER vs human PLAYER.

It's not fighting through the market.

It's not ship spinning in a PvP game.

It's not building ships in a PvP game.

It's actual non-NPC combat.

And EvE is no different.

Hiding under the skirt of "sandbox" doesn't excuse the definition: PvP is non NPC combat.

It's human PLAYER vs human PLAYER.

It's not fighting through the market.

It's not ship spinning in a PvP game.

It's not building ships in a PvP game.

It's actual non-NPC combat.

no, 'versus' does not mean combat

anyone who says that any player activity that can be described as being against or opposed to another player is not pvp is objectively wrong

Incorrect. Any time I can get the advantage of you (oh baby) I have PvPed.

[Edit: Also, I reject the concept of equality as far it goes to "fair fights". No fights are fair and equal, except things like chess. And chess is boring as hell. Things being mixed up, different capabilities across the board, that's what make thing interesting.

No other game offers that like Eve, and it makes PvP have real impact. Who cares about death in a game where the only consequence is a boring run as a ghost from a graveyard? Or where 200 deaths a night in an FPS game means nothing at all?
Why bother putting any effort into anything so meaningless?

Because you don't play responsible roles. If you did, it isn't meaningless.

You're used to dying because if you die, so what? YOU need the challenge of what a tank or healer in those games get by default, and are blamed if anything goes wrong. YOU have the luxury to sit back and just fight without care.

Without responsibilities you can be carefree. Nice isn't it?

Turn that around, yeah, you'll learn that dying is easy but if you die, all the rest dies. That's not fun.

See I play both sides of the coin. Be it a raider or a PvPer. But I'm not blinded to see PvP is carefree. It's not designed to have responsibilities, and for the most part, objectives. When I PvP it's about fun, it's about chilling. All of the work that is needed for a successful raid for example isn't needed. I still play a responsible role, but PvPers die so readily and healers are #1 targets, they hardly complain. If that's the players daily diet they would want something more challenging. But when I PvP it's to relax. The pressure isn't there in PvP.

Perhaps you should tell people that your PVP experiences is from WoW and not EVE.

[quote=Ace Uoweme][quote=Alaric Faelen]

Perhaps you should tell people that your PVP experiences is from WoW and not EVE.

I will tell them that I play or have played...

WoW
EvE
EQII
RIFT
DDO
A lot of F2P MMOs
Assortment of MuDs
Deus Ex
Battlefield series (and quite well)
Quake/Quake II
Hexxen
Homeworld series
Elder Scroll series (from Morrowind)
Age of Empires series
Commandos series
Silent Hunter series
And yeah, even The Sims and Motorhead (good COMPUTER game music!)

And still have the DOS games on 5.25" from the old days of computer gaming with a computer that still works that can play them as is.

So I play WoW and damn proud of it.

Your excuse again? Scared of some goblins?

Anyone who can't distinguish what is played in a solo game ISN'T PvP needs to see a neurologist.

So EVE is a difficult game to figure out, as I try to balance my personal understanding of what Player Vs Player is.

Although, I have my personal view of what PVP, I would very much like to hear what anyone who is brave enough to post in GD.... as would others who read these threads.

Post with your MAIN, otherwise you're missing the point.

1) What is PVP to you?
2) Why do you like it?

This entire Fountain war came down to a few individuals and their personalities, but all of Eve is affected to some degree.